An Alternative approach to Stage IV Health and choices

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  • DivineMrsM
    DivineMrsM Member Posts: 9,620
    edited September 2011

    It nice that you have a Block Center near you where you can have a consultation.  I always hear such good things about them.  What dose of curcumin do you take?

  • ango74
    ango74 Member Posts: 255
    edited September 2011

    Makmak, how long have you been following the diet plan? I just went a few weeks ago and am making small changes. I've cut out all sugar, I still do a tiny bit of diary in my coffee.  Do you get your chemo there? What chemo are you on?

    Sweetbean, I love cheese too.  I got this rice cheese and it's not too bad.  I thought it would taste like cardboard but actually it taste better than the fat free regular cheese.  Giving up diary isn't too hard for me because I don't really care for dairy.  The hardest part of The Block Center diet is all the whole grains.  They told me to eat 7-8 servings a day and I am having trouble getting 3-4. 

  • sweetbean
    sweetbean Member Posts: 1,931
    edited September 2011

    Whoa!  Seven to eight servings?  I'm not doing that, either.  What qualifies as whole grains?  Quinoa?

  • ango74
    ango74 Member Posts: 255
    edited September 2011

    Sweetbean, I am actually in the chemo chair right now and don't have my book they gave me so I will post on the whole grains later.  There are a bunch but right now my brain is mush!

  • makmak
    makmak Member Posts: 632
    edited September 2011

    ango,  I've been doing this diet since April 2010 so a year and a half.. since my first visit to Block.  I don't follow it to a t.. like the number of servings of anything.. I just eat 5 times a day.. (small meals 2 of which are just veggies) and do the no sugar no meat no dairy thing..  I get treated at a different hospital and use a different Onc that I really like, but get my diet and supplement advice from the Block Center as well as some Alternative books..  I am on Gemzar and Herceptin.. just started my second cycle today.. was NED for a year before that.. :(

  • Heidihill
    Heidihill Member Posts: 5,476
    edited September 2011

    Hope all who are doing chemo don't have too many SEs. I did just read that fish oil is a no-no with some chemo, cisplatin is what I recall. So if you're taking fish oil you should probably ask your onc about it.

    As far as dietary energy restriction (DER) it seems you can push it too far so that the body tries to create more fat which ends up in your bone marrow. That's from a study done on anorexics (not mice) at Boston Children's Hospital. Back to mice, another study showed that exercise increases the production of blood stem cells, and that without a stem cell transplant!!! (quote below)

    http://www.fasebj.org/content/early/2011/08/24/fj.11-189043.abstract

    Depending on the cell type, endurance training increased medullary and mobilized                     hematopoietic stem and progenitor cell content from 50 to 800%. Training also reduced marrow cavity fat by 78%. Skeletal muscle hematopoietic cytokine expression was also increased at least 60% by training. Sedentary mice served as controls for the above  experiments. In conclusion, endurance exercise training greatly promotes hematopoiesis and does so through improvements in  medullary niche architecture as well as increased skeletal muscle hematopoietic cytokine production

  • DivineMrsM
    DivineMrsM Member Posts: 9,620
    edited September 2011

     "In conclusion, endurance exercise training greatly promotes heatopoiesis and does so through improvements in medullary niche architecture as well as increased skeletal muscle hematopoietic cytokine production"

    Say what?  Heidihill, no offense, but I couldn't begin to understand what you last post means! 

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 1,393
    edited September 2011

    ???  eerrrr.... lol... same here.  My eyes nearly popped out at that sentence.  I assume it's a good thing?  

  • Heidihill
    Heidihill Member Posts: 5,476
    edited September 2011

    It's a great thing! I'm just beginning to understand about all these things myself. Not a doctor or anything close. Just reading a lot of scientific articles. Hematopoiesis means the production of blood cell components. Hematopoietic stem cells are stem cells that have the potential to become all kinds of blood cells. The one thing they didn't say though is how old the mice were. Maybe these were very young mice and a little exercise could make such a difference in cells that were growing anyway. But I assume they considered that.

    The bottomline is that increasing bone cells in the bone marrow (medullary niche) increases blood cells, which means better immune system and better oxygen carrying capacity (both bad for cancer). Exercise allows more stem cells to become bone as opposed to fat. It also increases blood production by releasing proteins (cytokines) from skeletal muscle that direct blood cells. (That last part I don't understand completely.)

    The caveat is that too much exercise can also kill blood cells (not shown in this study but in others).

    My sister started taking metformin for her prediabetes condition a few weeks ago. She had to be running to the toilet often but things are ok now. She has lost a lot of weight because her appetite is gone. I'm not sure losing a lot of weight so quickly is good...

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 1,393
    edited September 2011

    thanks Heidi, I was too lazy to look up so many definitions.  I'm too busy researching the DER (Dietary Energy Restriction) / strong anti-oxidant / anti-inflammatory diet which works in mice but is still awaiting full human trials.

    Metformin is sometimes used in place of the DER as it's a Calorie Restriction Mimetic (CRM) which mimics the life prolonging potential of low calorie diets. One study compared Metformin and DER and the Metformin was inferior to the DER for mets.  I agree that intermittent fasting may be better for those with a low BMI.  It's clear you're way ahead of me in researching the role of exercise which is also a CRM.  I'm thinking of making my Microsoft OneNote notebook (part of MS Office) available to you and maybe those who can follow the studies and I can trust with my details.

    I'm still checking studies on different strong anti-oxidants and I have yet to look into anti-inflammatories / cox-inhibitors which are essential to defeat mets. I'm looking for as many options as possible and for those substances which cover two of the three requirements.

    There's so much to be checked before I start a new thread which may attract controversy and I want to be sure of my facts and have studies to refer to. This is a new and exciting area of research even though it goes back to Otto Warburg's 1924 discovery of glycolysis. Plenty of clues point to the possibility that this can work in some people to put cancer into remission and it seems I'm not the only one who's picked up on this.

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    gosh jlw, thankyou for your research, you have cleared the air on what i was finding confusing!...i will very much look forward to your thread, but i thank you for sharing here :) heidi, i think you and jlw both are onto a clever approach to our situation thanks to you too :)

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 1,393
    edited September 2011

    Wow, I just spent nearly two hours on the phone to my aunt in Canada.  She has a mass in the centre of her pancreas but it's in the wrong position for an endoscopic biopsy so she's left hanging, not knowing if she has a deadly cancer.  There's a slight chance it's not malignant but the surgeon has ruled out an operation and she's adamant she doesn't want chemo or radiation.  She's interested in the low energy diet so she doesn't tax her pancreas and had already started it and wants me to pass the anti-oxidant/anti-inflammatory information on to her.  Also her daughter who is helping her due to her visual problems uses a naturopath successfully for lifelong problems so I hope she will be on the same page.

    That's life, I tried to pass on enough clues and bits of information for those like yourself and Heidi who can follow the studies and logic, without giving away the whole formula as people seem to understand one part then say it doesn't work.  DER, strong anti-oxidant supplements, anti-inflammatories, they are the three main ingredients, but they need modification for those who may have contra-indications.

    I was out all day yesterday and now I must work on my vegetable garden while the weather's good. Then I must ignore this forum  :(  and work flat out on getting my research in some sort of order. 

    My aunt was telling me how as part of her nursing experience, she went to China and was in the theatre when two operations were performed using only acupuncture and no anaesthetic. An anaesthetist was monitoring and ready to act if any pain was felt. One operation was a caeserian and the other a thyroidectomy. The slightest movement from the patient during the thyroidectomy could have resulted in vital arteries being cut.  Fortunately my aunt is level headed and like me is on the fence between evidence based medicine and alternatives, knowing that lack of proof is not proof of lack and also knowing the limitations of both medicine and alternatives.

  • DivineMrsM
    DivineMrsM Member Posts: 9,620
    edited September 2011

    Joylieswithin, I look forward to the new thread you post on your findings.....

  • Heidihill
    Heidihill Member Posts: 5,476
    edited September 2011

    I'm sorry to hear about your aunt, jlw....Looking forward to your new thread.

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    i wish i knew how to do a spread sheet here or diagrams !! i can visualise the process, just get lost in the verbal..hope your aunt has success jlw, with whichever treatment plan she decides on, and hope it's not malignant x

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    a couple of articles on dietary energy restriction (DER): http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/9/1381.abstract

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/11/3087S.full.pdf

    the quote below is quite interesting, from the mice trial data:

    The 'intermittent caloric restriction (mice) diet:  "contributes to accumulating evidence that caloric restriction acts by altering hormone levels rather than by directly starving cancers of energy."...sounds good re hormone receptor positive BC?.

    for ER+ breastcancers treating with tamoxifen: pomegranate fruit pulp/juice?  http://foodforbreastcancer.com/studies/6981

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    for what its worth, and i welcome any critique :) this is the diet i am about to take on. it is a combination of general principles, but mainly a 'healing diet' designed by a fellow in australia, who claims success with stage IV disease:

    the basics: organic:

    summer: more fruits, salads, raw vegetables, grains, seeds

    winter: steamed/baked vegetables, cooked grains, porridge,

    to start:

    depending on state of health:

    no eggs for 2-8 weeks no dairy for 2-8 weeks (occasional yoghurt)

    no meat for 2-8 weeks (or beef broth if struggling with weight) (then re introduce lean, organic rabbit, chicken, turkey)

    no fish (or minimum) for 2-8 weeks (then re introduce small deep sea or fresh water fish)

    first thing in the morning, and before bed: hot water and lemon or lime juice

    the only other fruit initially ( for the 2 weeks) is avocado, along with lemon and lime, but any vegetables you want.

    exercise to induce sweating

    organic cold pressed coconut oil as a moisturiser

    and 'healing' meditation (basically just relaxing each part of your body, and enjoying the quiet! no imagery etc)

    after the short time of elimination above (im only going to do 2 weeks) then back to this yes and no list:

    Alternate cooking and serving raw a variety of vegetables, thereby maximising different enzyme actions from the same vegetable:

    these are the no no's im going to avoid: cashews and peanuts and potatoes(mould and fungus)tap water (chlorine and fluouride), yeast, corn/rice grain, processed apple juice, oranges (only initially for 2 weeks), grapefruit, tangerine, dried fruit, microwaved foods, manmade sweeteners, soft drink, hydrogenated oils/trans fats, polyunsaturated oils, heated oils, dairy (for the duration of the 'healing' diet 3 months or so) apart from occasional yoghurt or cottage cheese and processed sugars.

    this is what i am going to be eating!: organic: juices, fresh salads, vegetables, juiced grasses, sprouts, whole grains, (beef broth if losing weight) yoghurt, cottage cheese, (mushrooms in moderation re fungus)

    all herbs and spices but with periodic breaks, macrobiotic sea salt, cold pressed organic oils. fresh and deep sea small fish, *broccoli, *asparagus, *beets, *cabbage, *carrots, *cauliflower, *capsicum, *kale, *parsley, *wheatgrass, *turnips, *sprouted grains, *onion, *garlic, *lemon, celery, cucumber, eggplant, squash, green beans, peas, spinach, watermelon, lettuce, watercress, macadamias, almonds, walnuts, legumes, most fruits (except grapefruit and tangerine) and most other healthy choices for meals...

    the vegetables with an * can be juiced and are known anti cancer foods

    and then these super cancer killing foods: purple grapes (concord), grapes, red rasberries, strawberries, pineapple, pawpaw, (and maybe pomegranate?)

    fresh filtered water (minerals can be absorbed from the organic/macro sea salt)

    anyway, thats about it, certainly cant do me any harm?...sounds refreshing actually, after years of eating mainly carbs/white flour/ cakes/pasta, and meat based diet..a very 'old english' diet..i have already implemeted a number of good changes, and have noticed alot of difference in my energy levels and well being...Im going to keep drinking coffee, because i want to... lol, but maybe cut the sugar..

    im enjoying following the juicing thread, they sound yum.

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    oh yes, and vit D3, (not sure about fish oil)...im interested in melatonin, and wonder about metformin being an option too one day....now i just have to wait for jlw and heidi to explain to me how often and when it is recommended to increase/then cut back calorie load....lol..

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    re juicing: i did read that the centrifugal mechanism used in the 'extractor juicers' seperates enzymes, and is therefore less beneficial for our purpose, than the 'squashing' type juicers...

  • Heidihill
    Heidihill Member Posts: 5,476
    edited September 2011

    http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/intermittent-fasting/inflammation-and-intermittent-fasting/

    I was going to wait for human trials for intermittent fasting before recommending a specific protocol.  But I see there is one already in relation to Ramadan fasting.

     I have been doing an intermittent fast of sorts since before Christmas last year. My last meal is usually at 7:00 pm and the next one at 12:30 pm the next day. That's more than the 16 hours for Ramadan fasters. I do have low CRP levels, an inflammatory marker used in the study. I'll have to check what it was before I started on this quasi-IF protocol. It's quasi because I have to have coffee with milk at around 8:00 am. I go exercise after my coffee boost. So I figure the coffee, which is an antioxidant, doesn't really count.

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    didnt realise it may be daily fasting, i was thinking weeks or months of low carb/then high cal intake...oh well!, (what would mouse weeks be if we converted them into human time frame? dont mean to sound as strange as that sounds!).. its an interesting area, looking forward to more trials/info... interesting study on ramadan fasting heidi.

  • sweetbean
    sweetbean Member Posts: 1,931
    edited September 2011

    that's life, that diet sounds really good!  that's basically what I am doing, but without any dairy or meat at all.  (just special occasions -can't wait for American Thanksgiving!  lol!)  anyway,  your diet sounds awesome - go you!

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 1,393
    edited September 2011

    I'm pretty lazy with food. Although I've always tried to eat healthy, those cakes and "white" foods were always too tempting to resist.  I never enjoyed cooking or preparing food and tend to stick to what I'm familiar with.  I use a pressure cooker to retain nutrients in vegetables and I eat lots of fruit.  I avoid grapefruit in case it interferes with Tamoxifen.  I'm a pescetarian as I don't like the way farmed animals are treated but know that fish at least are free till they are caught which is a part of the natural order.  Anyway I'm blood group A so according to D'Adamo I'm not a meat eater and that certainly seems to fit.  I eat a lot of beans, nuts and legumes as it helps my digestion and I'm reluctant to give up dairy due to osteoporosis.

    I'm currently on a low carb diet with no sugars, grains, potatoes, bananas etc, taking 600mgs ALA (Lipoic Acid) in the evening, a little melatonin at bedtime and resveratrol in the morning as my main antioxidants for now.  This diet doesn't agree with me as it's leaving me really tired and washed out.  I did low carb years ago to lose weight and swore I'd never try it again after only a week, but if I don't feel any better soon I'll just add carbs gradually till I get my energy back.

    That's life, Thanks for your links above which add to my research.   I think your diet as listed is excellent.  I'm curious why you exclude tangerines, is there a problem with them?  Tangerine peel is a TCM with anti-cancer properties, notably the flavanoid Nobiletin.

    What is Nobiletin?   

    Tangeretin and nobiletin induce G1 cell cycle arrest but not apoptosis in human breast and colon cancer cells.

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    hi jlw, it was hard to format what im doing and have it cover all bases sorry...in the initial phase of more intense change (i.e. cut out dairy, eggs, meat etc for 2 weeks..) high sugar fruits are not encouraged, only lemons, limes and avocado...then introduce each new fruit and vegetable etc..including tangerines!...the thought being that grapes, and other high sugar fruits will feed cancer when used in conjunction with low carb/protein phase...a vegetable and legume and grain based diet with some fruit seems the most beneficial option as far as i can tell...but the bottom line is good nutrition, organic (especially apples and strawberries re pesticides) , low mould/ fungus...not the be all and end all, but a good starting point i think.

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    ScienceDaily (Sep. 19, 2011) -" Psychosocial stress could play a role in the etiology of breast cancer aggressiveness, particularly among minority populations, according to study results presented at the Fourth AACR Conference on The Science of Cancer Health Disparities, held here from Sept. 18-21, 2011.

    Rauscher and colleagues studied patient-reported perceptions of fear, anxiety and isolation, together referred to as psychosocial stress, and associations with breast cancer aggressiveness. He cautioned that patients' stress levels were examined two to three months post-diagnosis."

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    not much to add to that either.....

     apart from it being a reminder to us all to take care of our hearts, and minds, and spend time where we find joy and comfort, and eliminate, where possible, the aggressive and negative.

  • Bren-2007
    Bren-2007 Member Posts: 6,241
    edited September 2011

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110919131602.htm

    Thats-life .. I posted the link to the article you wrote about.  It was a good article.  Thanks for posting.

    Bren

  • Hindsfeet
    Hindsfeet Member Posts: 2,456
    edited September 2011

    that'slife.... I agree. I heard that you are leaving bco. I feel bad that you are leaving in that you have such a strong influence here at bco and this thread is so key for those who are stage IV.

    You are a very special person! Thanks for all you've given all of us! YOU ARE LOVED!

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    thanks so much eve for what you said!, i hope this thread continues to inspire some to approach their disease from all angles...I have started a face book group for anyone who is interested in building awareness of stage IV BC, and or nutrition and holistic health... I invite anyone who wants to join...it's called: Metastatic Breast Cancer : The Whole Person Approach ..

    I will check in here periodically, as was suggested on the stage IV forum, and let you know how i am going. Thanks again everyone for all your wonderful efforts and input :)

  • thats-life-
    thats-life- Member Posts: 1,075
    edited September 2011

    Here is another article BinVA, that you may be interested in.

    Breast Cancer: Stress Receptor Found to Stimulate Growth and Migration of Cancer Cells

    ScienceDaily (Sep. 21, 2011) - It's a common belief that there's a link between chronic stress and an increased risk of cancer. In new research published online by the International Journal of Cancer, scientists at The University of Western Ontario have taken a step toward confirming that belief.

    Research led by Dwayne Jackson of the Departments of Medical biophysics and Biomedical Engineering has identified a particular neurotransmitter released in response to stress, that stimulates both cancer cell growth and migration in breast cancer. Working with Ph.D candidate Philip Medeiros, Jackson looked at a branch of the nervous system called the sympathetic nervous system, and how it "talks" to cells in various organs throughout the body. When the sympathetic nervous system is activated, like it is during stress, it communicates with receptors on cells through the release of neurotransmitters called norepinephrine and neuropeptide Y or NPY. This is a normal response that prepares the body for "fight or flight."

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