An Alternative approach to Stage IV Health and choices
Comments
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thanks joy..there are a number of cancer fighting food/diet ideas that i have read that seem to be trying to do something similar..starve the cancer cells, then hit them with 'super nutrients' but im finding the issue confusing at the moment, im trying to work it out
...what concerns me is the line between starving them of glucose, and supplying them with nutrients. and the effect on our 'healthy' cells..also, wondering if ER+ cancer cells use E and glucose?..metformin.. interesting drug..
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Heidi has posted another study in the research forum. It's a full in vivo study and very long. I'm still trying to make sense of it. It seems to be saying they could achieve the same results without the metformin but on a low energy diet. This gets back to the basics of all the dietary methods as you mention. I don't see how this fits with all the people like my father who stopped eating for the last six weeks of his life when the pancreatic cancer took away his appetite. Maybe he needed to be getting anti-oxidants to starve the cancer. Similarly my elderly relative with BC has always been shockingly thin but still developed a primary cancer, but though she speaks about good nutrition, her diet may not be so good in reality. Since Gawler was also almost starving on the Gerson diet I always felt that could have something to do with the remissions. I found reading his and Grace's story interesting as I feel somewhere in those books is the key to a harmless natural cure.
It was 1924 when Otto Warburg discovered glycolysis. I realise that much research has been done since then but meanwhile so many have been derided for trying to follow Warburg's principles and they may turn out to be closer to a cure than is realised. At last researchers are getting close to that elusive recipe we're all waiting for.
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I also think they are getting close. Regarding your thin relative, was she er+? Thin people tend to have more estrogen circulating proportionally speaking. It's more important to lose the weight after menopause for non-obese women.
I know of a woman doing the Gerson diet now. My husband's aunt told me about her. They are neighbors. She looks awful according to our relative. I'm not optimistic about the outcome, but would love to be surprised. The same woman at Stage IV stopped taking Femara after going to a shaman in Peru (or somewhere in South America), hired a personal trainer and wanted to run some extreme alpine marathon. My comment to our relative then was if I could feel safe without the Femara, I'd also train to run a marathon. (I already had a personal trainer.) But I prefer the aches and pains, thank you. Actually I think extreme sports tend to lower your immune responses, so I wouldn't do a marathon with a Stage IV history, even if I could.
Will post more research links when I have a chance.
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110829114723.htm
One strategy for blocking food transport to cancer cells uses synthetic tryptophan, which however has no impact on er- cancer.
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Again, thanks for all the info everyone!
A relative of mine with cancer told me to start drinking cherry juice concentrate. She seems to think it has helped her, especially with her pain. I checked it out and can't believe how good it is for us. There's plenty to read out there but here is a quick view.
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Best of luck in whatever decision you decide to make. I wanted to say that I chose against chemotherapy and decided on vitamin c infusions and I also do fresh carrot juice (try daily although sometimes that doesn't happen) my last tumor markers were down to 10.7! I am a firm believer in the vitamin c. All the best, Ginger
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Heidi, my relative didn't know or care about her pathology results but her doctor is putting her on tamoxifen. At her age she needn't worry about a recurrence.
I thought larger women had more estrogen as fat cells make it. That's why thin women have more menopausal symptoms.
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hi all, was very disheartened after attending the last of 4 meetings at a 'living with cancer' program, run by the cancer council..there was a visiting dietitian. while discussing the topic of alt and comp 'diets'. she told us all,(at all stages of disease) there are no foods to avoid, that there is no 'cancer diet', that we should have as much sugar as we need/crave/want, butter, cream, meat...any extra calories we crave, to counteract the fatigue and calorie burning that cancer does...one lady who was having chemo asked if there was anything we should avoid during treatment, she said 'no', eat whatever you want (even 2 minute noodles were on her suggestion list)...it made me lose heart..then i read macy's cherry info, and saw heidi's, ginger's, joy's comments, and im back to believing we CAN infuence outcomes, so thanks !!!
while on the plus side, i was researching oncs in my area sunday night, amazed to find that there is an internationally renowned professor/breast cancer onc at my center, with 20 letters after his name!, who does reseach articles etc etc..i prayed that somehow i get to see him, was thinking i would write to him, beg to have him see me lol ( as i am often handed over to registras)..anway, the next morn i was ushered into his room! i was so shocked i was tripping over my words..he gave me validation of my little theories, said a japanese professor has the same theories as me lol (so im not alone haha) so im continuing to pray that he decides to take me on as his patient
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what are your opinions on that issue? i think i mentioned that earlier somewhere...do we eat a high calorie diet to counter feeding cancer cells as well as feeding our healthy cells, or do we go low caloric intake/intermittent intake high antioxidant intake? and risk weight loss/muscle mass loss. the dietitian also recommended a supplement drink like sustagen etc..im so confused lol!
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thats-life - I'm not Stage IV (yet, ugh), so I hope you don't mind me responding.
I think diet and exercise are VERY important in fighting this disease, especially for us triple negatives, but I don't think it can cure us when the cancer burden becomes too much, or the cancer is too aggressive, as is my case. In these cases, I think combining medical treatments with alternative is a great way to improve our odds, and if Stage IV, help us stay healthier for longer.
The WINS study showed that for TNs, a low-fat diet reduced recurrence rates by up to 42%!
I feel that a low-carb, low fat diet is best - as fresh as you can get, limited processed foods. I don't shy away from fruits, because they are natural, and do eat complex carbs such as whole wheat, oats, etc. But I really try to avoid "white" carbs and sweets. Way back when, fat was a small part of our larger diet, and humans were much more active. I do my best to eat this way, although I'm not always successful. When I went through my first round of chemo, I often craved fresh fruit and veggies, but had such bad heartburn that it was agony to eat them. With the chemo I'm on now, I once again have those cravings, and can thankfully indulge.
I think the dietician was handing out bad advice. But it is very very tough to eat ANYTHING on chemo sometimes, and it is important to keep up with calories and protein. And I'm not a doctor, so grain of salt and all that
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ETA - I understand diet isn't everything - many of the women here were VERY healthy when diagnosed. Cancer is such a complex disease, I'm not sure doctors will ever know completely why we get it.
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hi suze and thanks for your input
, , your example of a low fat diet and triple negs confirms to me that she could have said, at the very least, that a low fat diet can be beneficial for some cancers.!.and she wasnt just refering to during treatment..(which i can understand means sometimes eating anything is good!). i was shocked at her broad dismissal of options. I have no delusions about my tumour load, but extending survival is possible i think. to quote from Ian gawler (but dont quote me on this
"Professor Daniel Nixon, an oncologist specializing in nutrition and cancer and currently head of The American Health Foundation, stated in 1997 that accumulated medical research clearly established that for breast cancer and prostate cancer, diet was curative He is in no doubt that for these two cancers-breast and prostate- mainstream evidence now proves that diet can help you recover"....who knows ..
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that's life, have you read the lifeovercancerblog.com? It is Dr. Block's blog - he has the Block Center in Illinois. He is an integrative oncologist who treats a lot of Stage IV patients. He FIRMLY advocates a specific diet - no sugar, no dairy, very little organic meat, tons of fruits and vegetables, and low fat, esp saturated fat and has had a lot of success with his patients. In fact, he has one Stage IV woman who gave up dairy, sugar, and meat 24 years ago and has been stable ever since. Might even be NED, I'm not sure. He also does lots of supplements and conventional therapies, but he definitely believes that diet and lifestyle can make a huge difference. His book is called Life Over Cancer.
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thankyou so much for that sweetbean, im off to google him now,... and buying the book if i can find it here in aus
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an apple a day
just do it.
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a website I like is terrywalters.net. she is a chef and the author of "clean food" and "clean start." she has a bunch of her recipes online and they are right up our alley.
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ginger: how did you come to the decision to go the vitC route? i asked the prof i mentioned earlier about vitC infusions, he said no trials showed benefit (but i am aware that trials must include a standard treatment and sometimes lower doses, so not always 'provable')...
3littlegirls: have you had your scan results yet?, i just read back to your vitC info, and saw that you said your bone mets had healed!..was that after your mexico treatment/vitC infusions? or post surgery?how did i miss that?, fingers crossed for you
apple: im off to eat an organic apple and google sweetbeans new recipe website
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http://www.kumed.com/default.aspx?id=5049
more on vitamin c infusions.
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I have heard that vitamin c isn't good for patients who have breast cancer. I have also read that tumeric shoudln't be used with tamoxifen. I am so confused. I am planing on taking tomaxifen and I want my nutrition to be as good/perfect as possible. Has anyone else heard the above?
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Vitamin c taken orally may reduce the effectiveness of chemo and radiation. But infusions are different, according to the link in my previous post. I haven't heard anything about a conflict with turmeric and tamoxifen. I have read about a study that said tamoxifen and curcumin together acted synergistically to inhibit tumors. Curcumin suppresses inflammation that drives breast cancer cells to become resistant to tamoxifen.
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Heidi, If my interpretation is correct, both Tamoxifen and curcumin use the CYP2D6 drug-metabolizing cytochrome (enzyme) in the liver. This is the reason why several other drugs such as some anti-depressants inhibit tamoxifen. However, the amount of curcumin reaching the liver is probably not enough to make any difference. It's not really clear.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17433521 -
Thank you for the feedback.
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that's life..Thank you for opening this discussion. I am new to this site, but very glad that I found it, as I am just beginning my journey towards a diagnosis. I won't know for certain until late October whether I have BC, because I am waiting until I return to my State of residence, Florida to have my final testing done. I have had the unfortunate opportunity of watching a friend pass away in less than two years from small cell lung cancer, and the chemo treatments she was on took her down to a state that she couldn't eat or function at any quality level. The last six months of her life were living Hell for her. Now we have learned my boyfriends sister has the same thing, is just beginning treatment, and already is very sick. Before she decided to go the chemo route, pressured by her oncologist, we were exploring alternative therapies.
There was one therapy (don't think I'm supposed to mention the name on the site) that was interesting in that it spoke of using a diet that would starve the cancer cells. They feed on certain foods, and the example that comes to mind is sugar. They do not thrive on most vegetables, particularly green ones. Cancer also thrives on acidic diets, but not on alkiline ones. I'm no expert on any of this, but I would think it is worth exploring diet and supplements as an alternative to chemotherapy. There is even an institute where you can go and learn to follow his teachings, but, of course, it isn't covered by insurance and it's expensive
I can also tell a story of a friend who put her auto immune disease in remission by going on a completely vegan diet. The doctors had pretty much given up on her, but I saw her last year and she is doing great.
I can understand the reluctance of many to forego the traditional tried and true methods of putting cancer into remission, vs rolling the dice on some program that has not been given the seal of approval by the medical community. In the case of our friend and our sister, the prognosis is very grave...the only hope chemo gives is to extend life by maybe six months, so why not try some alternative therapy that would allow you to have some quality of life to the end
After reading so many positive stories on here about women who have lived for years with stage IV BC, utilizing the standard treatments, it is a tough decision to make, particularly if you are young and have young children
At my ripe old age of 71 years young, I am more interested in quality of life rather than quantity of life, so I would be more inclined to explore some alternative options.
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hi kaara, thankyou for sharing your story, lots of wishes for a great response to treatment for your BF's sister,
re alt treatments: that's what im thinking.. it cant do any harm, and when you are told there is no medical cure for stage Iv bc, well.....if you want to pm me the starving cancer cell diet that you are aware of, i will check it out...that is the issue im trying to get my head around....to starve BC or not to starve BC..lol...heidi found an interesting study on intermittant caloric control diet, verses eating whatever/eating a very restricted diet in mice...
cyborg: hi
just want to add that GRAPEFRUIT, and its juice, can stop tamoxifen (and some other drugs) working very quickly...and re VIT C: according to what i have read, oral doses wont kill cancer cells, and can interfere with chemo's goal...
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I just bought the book "Healing Spices" from Dr. Aggarwal who is at MD Andersen in Texas. He's fantastic! He's authored several hundred scientific articles and mentions this and that study on specific spices, including therapeutic doses for various ailments. I will definitely be adding Spices as a fifth leg to my anticancer strategy (after Femara, Exercise, Fruits and Vegetables, and Vitamin D)! The recipes in the book also look pretty good. I would add intermittent caloric restriction as a sixth leg, but I'm not exactly sure how that would work either.
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Hi Ladies,
I've been lurking on this thread for a bit. I still have a lot to read and catch up on. I was wondering if anyone has been to The Block Center or followed the diet? I went to The Block Center about 3 weeks ago and just got my list of supplements to take. I'm on Navelbine and Herceptin so, one of the supplements they want me to take is Curcimin but I've heard it can interfere with Herceptin has anyone else heard this?
Thanks Angie
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Ango74, Did you ask them? I'm a big fan of the Block Center, although I haven't been. I have his book and I go to the blog regularly. It seems they would definitely know about potential interactions between supplements and any medications. I'm on Tamox and Herceptin and have been taking Curcumin as well.
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Sweetbean,
I was so impressed with them. They check all your vitamin levels, antioxident levels, immune system, blood sugar and inflamation levels and then set you up on a program after that. My oncologist told me that curcumin would interfere with Herceptin. I've googled it and saw a couple of articles but nothing substantial. I did bring it up to them and they said it was fine. I am taking it and I guess I'll see what happens. I
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Hi been reading this regularly and wanted to jump in. I go to the Block Center and they too recommended curcumin even though my oncs pharmacy said not to take it. I then googled a bunch if Dr. Aggarwals articles in the MD Anderson site and they all talk about benefits of cucumin so I'm taking it along with Gemzar and Herceptin..a vegetarian diet and daily exercise..
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makmak, do you eat dairy? the block center is really opposed to dairy, which is hard. I miss cheese! thanks for chiming in on the curcumin - i feel like the Block Center has the latest info on supplements, so I am going to continue taking it. How much do you take?
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No dairy.. I do eat fish which i really enjoy since im not eating meat or chicken.. No sugar or refined foods.. They recommend 4,000 mg a day.. I take 3,000 only because that's how much is in my current pills.. Once they run out will do the 4,000.. Most oncs are against mushrooms and I take lots of variations of those which Block supports!
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