Chemo - since I have a choice, why would I?

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BobbiMarie
BobbiMarie Member Posts: 60
edited June 2014 in Stage I Breast Cancer

Because I am in the gray area of the Onco (score of 20) but had a Grade 3 cancer, the MOs that I have seen (2) won't say I have to have chemo but won't say I don't.  The one yesterday at an internationally recognized facility had stats that were a little worse (more points for the chemo option than not) for recurrence 'somewhere' - roughly a 5% reduction in recurrence taking me from 15% chance down to roughly 10%.  Of course, this is based on their test population and I might not 'look like' the test population.  The nurse went over the side effects for a Taxotere/Cytoxan cocktail.....The first MO didn't discuss neuropathy at all - I called back and asked. Neuropathy is what the second one was really focusing on....could I handle it?  I hate having choices. Whether it is the sudden stop of HRT back in May that is making this such an emotional decision (lots of crying) or the fact that I usually make decisions without a problem and can't seem to bring myself to make this one that is causing me so much upset.  Has anyone that has the same stats not done chemo?  If you did chemo, what about the neuropathy?  I have been doing searches and it sounds debilitating for some.....I don't think I could deal with that if it happened.

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  • kira1234
    kira1234 Member Posts: 3,091
    edited July 2011

    BobbiMarie,  Don't you just love how the onc's leave it up to us? I am a bit higher risk than you with a 24. I can so understand your questions. The way I went about my decision was if the BC came back would I regret not doing chemo? Neuropathy is a real possibility with TC, and is something to be considered. I take L-Glutimine daily which has helped me with the neuropathy. 

  • NatsFan
    NatsFan Member Posts: 3,745
    edited July 2011

    Bobbi - you've talked about recurrence.  That's not the same as survival.  What about survival?  Does chemo give you any survival benefits?

    I was in the same boat as you, except with rads, not chemo.  Rads would take my recurrence rate from 15% to about 5%.  But the big thing for me was that the studies showed no overall survival benefit.  My rad onc said that 90% of women in my particular situation were radiated for no reason.  85% will not recur, rads or no, and 5% will recur whether or not they get rads.  That leaves 10% of women who do not recur if they get rads who would recur if they didn't get rads.  But even those who recur had no worse survival rate than those who did not.

    Once survival was off the table, then it came down to a quality of life issue.  I had to weigh my QOL with rads and all the possible side effects against my QOL with that 10% greater chance of recurrance.  I opted to decline rads.  Others in that same situation have opted to do rads - it's all with how comfortable we are with risk. The rad onc I liked (I consulted with 2) said she was comfortable with my decision to decline rads, but also would have been comfortable had I opted for rads. 

    So far it seems your med oncs have only talked to you in terms of recurrance rates.  You may want to ask them about possible differences in survival rates if you do chemo vs. if you don't do chemo.  That might help you make your decision.  Obviously the Grade 3 tumor is troubling, but the onco score is reassuring.

    FWIW, I did 6*TAC chemo - I had mild neuropathy in my feet and hands during chemo, but in the weeks after chemo was done, it gradually went away and I'm fine today.  

    Good luck!

  • jude14
    jude14 Member Posts: 293
    edited July 2011

    Hi BobbiMarie....I was a grey area person also with an 18.  My oncologist gave me all the pros and cons of the chemo and I opted not to do chemo.  I did the rads and have been on the AI's now for pushing 4 years.  His opinion was he told me if I were his sister or mother or wife he would tell me to skip the chemo and take my chances.  I was 58 at the time.  So far I have not regretted the decision and if it comes back then I weill have to deal then.  I do not thnk anyone can give you a guarantee on it coming or not coming back by doing the chemo.  I have seen it both ways.  Make your oncologist sit down and give you all the pros and cons as mine did me and then he helped me decide.  Best of luck and porayers coming to you.....jude14

  • PLJ
    PLJ Member Posts: 373
    edited March 2012
  • BobbiMarie
    BobbiMarie Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2011

    Thank you Kira1234 - that helps.  Having it at all just doesn't sound like fund and am glad you have found something that helps.  I do understand where the Oncs are at but I'm not sure if I am yet another guinea pig for 'So how does a woman that comes off of HRT deal with a life impacting decision like this?  Check the box - Depression, Psychosis, WNL'   I am feeling much like a part of some big science experiment.  Are you feeling your quality of life is compromised right now? 

    Thank you NatsFan - Interesting perspective and I had gone through that discussion to an extent.  Just with the hormone therapy the 5 and 10 year stats were good.  And actually my current cancer with the lumpectomy, rads and hormone therapy (before they knew my onco and the fact that there was a bit of confusion re my PR- originally thought to be PR+ status), survival was 25+ years.  I had not thought about it again since the playing field has changed.  Bottom line is my current cancer is not what would do me in.  It would be if it recurred.  And then survival depends on where it plants itself and how quickly it is found.....the doctor told me yesterday whether I choose to do chemo there is no guarantee I won't get cancer again - I have about a 10% chance.   If I don't do chemo, it doesn't mean that is why I got cancer again - trying to make me feel better so I don't beat myself up for not doing chemo if that is what I choose to do.

    My sister had breast cancer but she was PR+, ER+ and is doing AI.  We are different.  My family has a strong history of heart disease......that is where my focus has been....not this. 

  • elimar86861
    elimar86861 Member Posts: 7,416
    edited July 2011

    Well, wouldn't it come down to how upset you would be with yourself IF the worst possible outcome took place?  Would you be more upset to have permanent neuropathy OR more upset to have distant recurrance?   You don't give your age and that is a factor for some.  You also don't mention a hormonal therapy (but I assume you will be on one of them) and how much that will bring down the 15% risk.  Maybe you will feel comfortable with that reduction alone?

    p.s. Did see PLJ's post while writing this, but I have pretty much agreed with everything she states.

  • BobbiMarie
    BobbiMarie Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2011

    PLJ - thank you.  Yep, I am very intimate with the Oncotype - and I would ask your MO if they do the Adjuvant!Online that gives you a bit more info....and actually gives some survival info at 10 years.  There is a study referred to as Taylor RX.  They told me yesterday that this controlled group study - in a few years - will tell them exactly what I should do.  Unfortunately, the study is complete in 2014 and then it sounds like it takes a couple of years to pull the data and analyze it.  Timing is everything.  I also asked about a new blood test that is being experimented with to identify tumor markers in the blood stream (to know if the cells did creep out into my blood stream).  He would not do the test because it is too sporadic in its results and would cause more worry than not - does not help in the decision making process.  

  • jdootoo
    jdootoo Member Posts: 253
    edited July 2011

    BobbiMarie, I was staged at IIIA so, even though I really did not want to do chemo, I knew that it would increase my survival rate significantly, and with 2 small children, I knew I had to do it.

    I think about what my OBGYN told me while I was pregnant when I asked her if I could drink an occasional glass of wine. She told me that it was probably fine, but if I did drink alchohol while pregnant and something was wrong with the baby, I may always wonder if I had caused the problem. That made my mind up for me right there. I approached chemo the same way, I just wanted to be sure that I have done everything that I can.

    I had my last THC treatment a year ago and, all in all, it was not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. Neuropathy was not a problem for me and I feel back to normal today other than having a mild case of LE.

    I know it is a tough decision and you need to do what is right for you. Love and hugs...

    One love, Jackie

  • BobbiMarie
    BobbiMarie Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2011

    Elimar, thank you.  I am 55 and without anything at all I have a 20% chance of distant recurrence according to the OncoType.  However, the MO I met with yesterday feels that that percent would be closer to 25%.  And with hormone therapy, would bring it down to 15 (instead of 13% that the OncoType said) and with chemo it would bring it down to 10% (or 9% according to the OncoType).  The hormone therapy has not yet been determined - Tamoxifen and AIs have both been discussed....another decision but chemo decision has to be made first.  Your question is the right one......because this decision is irreversible and I don't know how I'll feel and don't want to get to the shoulda, woulda, coulda place.  But then, if I do it and I have permanent damage and have quality of life issues, I will be faced with the same questions....why did I do it, I shouldn't have....  sigh.....

  • kira1234
    kira1234 Member Posts: 3,091
    edited July 2011

    BobbiMarie, I was 57 when the BC was found. My onc said chemo would bring it down 2-3%. I felt I wanted that extra shield. Unfortunately I was not able to tolerate it and had to stop after my first treatment. That being said I am glad I tried, and if it comes back I know I did all I could.

  • BobbiMarie
    BobbiMarie Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2011

    Thank you.  That too is an option.

  • elimar86861
    elimar86861 Member Posts: 7,416
    edited July 2011
    Bobbi, I think you have some misread your Onco score.  If your RS (recurrent score) was 20, placing you into intermediate for local recurrence, then your percentage score (found on another line below the RS) for distant recurrence should be somthing lower than 20%.  I have never seen the RS & distant recurrence be the same number, so double check on that.
  • elimar86861
    elimar86861 Member Posts: 7,416
    edited July 2011

    Also, I am close in age, had an 18/12% Onco score, with risk reduction of 2-3%.  Chemo was mentioned, but not recommended.  I opted to not have it and am on Tamox. now.  I am ER+/PR+, and a Grade 2, so my decision was not nearly as hard as yours.

  • PLJ
    PLJ Member Posts: 373
    edited March 2012
  • BobbiMarie
    BobbiMarie Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2011

    You are correct.  The breast cancer recurrence score is 20.  My report doesn't actually show a distant recurrence 'score'.  It gives me a percent - average rate of distant recurrence with 5 years of tamox of 13% for me with my node negative, er positive. 

  • BobbiMarie
    BobbiMarie Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2011

    Inflated is an interesting observation for the Adjuvant.  They are not as high as the stats the MO was giving me yesterday.  It is a world of opinions.  I did my own simple stats yesterday.  They see 250 patients a day for oncology, 160 for hematology, and run 1100 people through blood draws every day (blood draws are for every medical condition).  That said, unless I can get one of the actuaries I work with to help me, I don't think I'm going to branch into CancerMath stats.  Let me know if you do and what the future holds!  Probably better than a crystal ball anyway! 

  • kira1234
    kira1234 Member Posts: 3,091
    edited July 2011

    PLJ Adjuvent is the only one my onc used.

    BobbiMarie, Have you used Adjuvent or has your onc?

  • BobbiMarie
    BobbiMarie Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2011

    The first Onc I saw ran the Adjuvant!Online report for me.  The second ONC ran something - probably their own version.  He did not say he used Adjuvant and did not give me a hard copy of anything....but I didn't ask for it either.

  • coraleliz
    coraleliz Member Posts: 1,523
    edited July 2011

    I turned down chemo for a benefit of 5-8%.Depending who I talked to, I got 5%,6%,8%. I lined up 100 women in my mind & gave them all chemo. I believed I would be one of the one's that got SEs & no benefit. I'm 52 & can't do much to improve my health eating & exercise wise. My parents both died in their 70's, poor quality of life but not cancer. Even without cancer, that probably is my fate. Quality of life is impotant to me.

    I'm grade 1, which it seems like shouldn't respond to chemo. Statistics say it sometimes does.

    FWIW, in my "line up" , 8% looked a lot worse than 6%. It was a difficult decision. I took my time with it. It seems like most women who post on BCO decide to do chemo & do OK.

    It's an agonizing decision & I wish you the best.

  • amoccia53160
    amoccia53160 Member Posts: 57
    edited July 2011

    The answer to your question is of course to save your life and give yourself the best odds of survival possible.  If a recurrance should happen you would kick yourself in the butt.

  • PLJ
    PLJ Member Posts: 373
    edited March 2012
  • BobbiMarie
    BobbiMarie Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2011

    CancerMath is a WEBSITE!  I didn't know that.  How interesting.  But TC isn't on there as a chemo type.  Your data is very convincing to do the chemo.  I used TAC - not as convincing for me.

  • kira1234
    kira1234 Member Posts: 3,091
    edited July 2011

    BobbiMarie, If you put in 3rd generation regimes on CancerMath that would include TC.

  • sflow
    sflow Member Posts: 297
    edited July 2011

    Hi--I had an oncotype of 22--my onc also left it up to me.  As a widowed single parent, I did not feel I could tolerate the rigors or chemo and expect my sons to fend for themselves. Also, there is heart disease rampant in my family and did not want to risk the chemo. I was 56 at time of diagnosis.  My onc said I would derive 1% benefit from chemo.  I am close to 5 yrs out and pray everyday for continued good health.  It's just a crap shoot as far as I am concerned. 

  • ICanDoThis
    ICanDoThis Member Posts: 1,473
    edited July 2011

    Just wanted to add in

    I was grade 1  --

    There is an approximately 1-2% of fatality from chemo -

    So you might want to figure in that in your calculations.

    I went for 3 opinions, both said, no way, no how

  • kira1234
    kira1234 Member Posts: 3,091
    edited July 2011

    ICanDoThis, You are so right the fatality issue really needs to be talked about by the onc's. One more thing to think about is developing other cancers due to the chemo.

  • Beeb75
    Beeb75 Member Posts: 325
    edited July 2011

    Where does the stat about a 1 to 2 percent fatality from chemo come from? That is nowhere near what my onc quoted to me. More like 1 in 1000.

  • kira1234
    kira1234 Member Posts: 3,091
    edited July 2011

    What my new onc actually said was permanent side effects including death in 1-2%of the cases. For me I unfortunately was one of the lucky one in that 1-2%. As my new onc said a second dose will kill you.

  • Beeb75
    Beeb75 Member Posts: 325
    edited July 2011

    Oh, 1 to 2 percent chance of permanent side effects from chemo...that makes more sense. I wonder what's included among those -- milder things like joint pain, or serious ones like neuropathy or heart damage?

  • LRM216
    LRM216 Member Posts: 2,115
    edited July 2011

    I think the most important thing to remember is that you only get this one shot at knocking this insidious and evil disease out of your body. 

    Without chemo, you can only pray.  With chemo, you can pray and at least have hope that any stray cell has been annihilated and also have the assurance that you have done completely all that you could to kill this beast. 

    Whatever way you decide to go, know that I wish you a safe journey - with or without chemo.

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