Medical Industrial Complex

I couldn't believe it when someone who vehemently decries cancer treatment and loves natural ways said she still smoked. 

Quitting smoking was the hardest thing ever.. I quit and quit again.. and again and again.. Finally I said to myself.. you are going to have to do the cold turkey cure..

 I saw this interesting advertisement about a NATURAL sleep aid.    The sleeping guy is such a hunk.

http://www.healthheadlines.com/article/content/fb_lgid=167&fb_lpid=4264&fb_itid=4140670&pid=200&fb_itid2=5858&nid=22&aff_id=tl1_sss

I think it all depends on why the moderators removed the post. 

They tend to remove posts that are inflammatory, and also posts that are part of the conversation and refer to the inflammatory posts.  Those incidental posts that are removed have never triggered banning. 

They do seem to be monitoring some threads closely and not waiting until posts are removed by the community to act. 

If rainbow pony can't post, neither can patzee because she actually changed her identity rather than adding a new persona.

jancie, I think you are confused.  This thread was started with the intent to rant against the medical industrial complex.  So I don't think it was ever meant to be either informative or supportive.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.  

Beesie - LMAO!

and maybe with chemo theirs will still come back..

Leia, I agree that it's important for everyone who is newly diagnosed to understand their choices and to realize that they don't have to take every treatment that their doctors' recommend.  It's important to do your homework, ask the questions, understand the risks of your cancer and the risks and benefits of the treatments and make the decisions for yourself.  You did that and I respect that. I don't think it's unreasonable to forgo radiation and other treatments if you have huge margins and a not very aggressive cancer.  With a 2cm tumor, it might not be what most docs would recommend and it might not be what most patients would do, but it is a reasonable decision.  And obviously in your case, a well thought out decision.

That all makes sense.  What doesn't make sense is how you move from there - your own individual case and your personal decision - to making broad general statements such as "Don't do the Medical Industrial Complex treatments" and talking about how chemo and radiation kill.  Passing on "Medical Industrial Complex treatments" might be fine for you, given your pathology, but passing on those same treatments could be a death sentence for someone else who has a different diagnosis. Yes, chemo and radiation and other MIC treatments do present a risk - and in rare cases, a very severe risk - but for those who have more advanced diagnoses of breast cancer, the risks from the treatments pale in comparison to the risk of not aggressively treating the breast cancer.

If your thread had the intent of explaining that everyone should fully examine all their options and make an educated decision based the risks and benefits of each treatment specific to their own case, and if you said that based on this, not everyone needs to partake in all the treatments offered by the Medical Industrial Complex, then your thread would have at least started with the intent to be informative and supportive.  But when you start off by making blanket statements that say that chemo and radiation kill, then your thread appears to be anything but informative and supportive. 

That's just how I see it.  

Well said, Beesie!!!

I chose life.  In my case, this meant chemo and radiation.

I am just fine BTW, having done a double century cycling event over the weekend.  So recovering from the 200 miles over 2 days plus very little sleep.  (Indoor camping with hard floors and snoring fellow cyclists.)

I am beyond grateful for the "medical industrial complex" because I had treatments available 2 years ago that would most likely mean that I would get to live out a full life span.

This was not true for someone with my diagnosis 70 years ago.

Personally, I get extremely offended at anyone who suggests we turn back the clock, which is what I hear again and again on these threads.

Because it's my life you are talking about.  And when it's on the line, I go with the best in CONVENTIONAL treatment.

hey, Claire! so happy you enjoyed that amazing ride.

love your post. as usual, to the point, uplifting, spirited.....:)

I wish I could write with such clarity like Beesie does!  I am a HUGE FAN!

I don't think any of you 'older' contributors should worry too much about 'newbies' being persuaded to use only alternative treatments for their cancer by reading threads such as this one.  Credit us with some measure of intelligence please!!

We come to sites such as this one to access as much information as possible from fellow sufferers, as well as to find references for further reading. We are here because we want to be able to question our doctors about our treatment and reasons behind it.  We are here because knowledge gives us the means to put up the best fight against this dreadful disease. We are obviously going to be even more critical and even more ready to question statements made by unqualified individuals.

On the other hand, I get the impression that the real purpose behind some of these threads is for a number of you 'oldies', who seem to be very well acquainted with each other, (familiarity breeds contempt?) to have a good old argument, which many of you, at least from a naive newby's point of view, actually seem to thoroughly enjoy.  Nothing like a good quarrel and a few insults to get things going!.......

I'm on oldie but a lot of the really contentious posters are new to me.

Maria, you have described why you came here.  I'm sure that many others of the "newbies" come here for the same or similar reasons - to access information so that you can question your doctors, to gain knowledge so that you can fight this disease, etc.

Everyone is different, however, and you don't represent all newbies.  In my 5+ years on this board (yup, I'm definitely an "oldie"), I have seen many women come here with the specific objective, sometimes stated, sometimes not, of finding other women who will confirm that their decisions and/or instincts are correct. Sometimes these decisions and instincts lean towards "doing everything I can to fight this thing" and other times these decisions and instincts lean towards "avoiding all of those toxic/harmful/life-threatening treatments". 

For the benefit of women in both of these groups, I believe that the women who post here have a responsibility to "do no harm".  Better still if we provide real help.  For some women, real help might be presenting information that allows them to talk to their doctor and conclude that there are some treatments that they really don't need.  For other women, real help might be presenting information that allows them to talk to their doctor and conclude that there are some treatments that they really do need.  And for other women, real help might be presenting information that confirms the path that they are on. 

What it all comes down to is that I believe that all of us who post here - whether we lean towards the traditional approach, the alternative approach or somewhere in-between - have a responsibility to present the most accurate information we can find to help newbies with their decisions.  We have a responsibility to not try to sway others to what we did, because what we did might be right for us but it might be very wrong for someone one.  We have a responsibility to not push a particular point of view or a particular treatment, but to present the pros and cons of the all the options.  We have a responsibility to look at what we post with a critical eye, to ensure that we are not trying to unduly influence someone simply because of our biases. We have a responsibility to not utilize scare tactics and to not engage in fear-mongering. We have a responsibility.

In much of what I read in this thread (and this forum, frankly), I don't see a lot of people taking responsibility for what they write.  I don't see a lot of people considering the implications of what they write, particularly the implications to scared, vulnerable, impressionable newly diagnosed women (which is one subset of the newbies who come here).  I think this lack of responsibility is most prevalent in this forum (from what I've read but I admit I haven't read much because the inaccuracies of the data or the lack of data sometimes makes my blood boil) but it is certainly not restricted to this forum.  This is something that I have spoken up against all around the board.

Having said all that, I most definitely agree with MOTC.  It's possible to present and discuss different viewpoints without being insulting.  Everyone needs to dial it down a bit.

Edited for typos and to provide more clarity on one point.

Apple, this recurrent puppet theme is juvenile and driving everybody paranoid. Do you think me a sock puppet ?



Are the mods not addressing this issue and it would therefore be safe to assume that no one currently posting on BCO is a sock puppet ???

Luan... i just don't like socks  - It's so dishonest.

I am hardly juvenile at 55.  (won't say I wasn't at one time tho).  Cancer has really knocked reality into me)... it's easy for me to identify socks, as I moderate a Piano forum.  they often come in pairs just like real life. ....you should see the prima donnas there. Lots of them are in music school/college so they are up all night bein crazy.  They are nutty. .. and love to argue.  For the most part we just let them be since they are not dangerous.. Only if they are particularly rude do we put them on hold or delete their extra accounts (unpaid for of course.. the accounts.  I am a volunteer). 

sorry to offend you.  I won't post anymore about it.  probably..  I might renege. 

peace and love, apple / Mary
Diagnosis: 4/10/2008, IDC, 5cm, Stage IV, Grade 3, 4/9 nodes, mets, ER+, HER2+

New people come to BCO either for information gathering or validation of their value system. Sometimes both. Or some are looking for that particular, specific bit of information that they can glean (or cherry pick) to support their decision-making process.

This is where the difference between evidence based research and anecdotal tales can be dangerous.

But we're all guilty of it. We want evidence, yet we crave the stories that back up our belief system when it comes to health, illness, treatments, etc. Some people put more stock in the evidence. Others put more stock in anecdotes. I know where I stand.

And I give newbies credit--they're smart, they will make their own choices, and are most likely digging through the volumes of threads that apply to their particular situations. And are shaking their heads in amazement at the tone of some of these threads. If they are even coming here. For the most part, I doubt it.