My arm surgeon

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stavmom
stavmom Member Posts: 35
edited June 2014 in Lymphedema

So I have to have surgery on the elbow of my good arm, and in discussing the procedure, the surgeon said the IV & BP would go on my mastecomy side.  He told me that it is NOT TRUE that procedures like IV & blood draws will cause lymphedema, that studies have shown it to be unrelated.  I don't want to question his knowledge to his face, but really??  I have had lymphedema before in that arm and it totally sux.  Would one little IV really do it?  One little blood draw?  I guess I don't really understand.

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  • Leah_S
    Leah_S Member Posts: 8,458
    edited June 2011

    Stavmom, if I were you I'd ask to see those studies. LE is a chronic and sometimes debilitating condition and, yes, the fluids going through an IV into an arm with LE and the constant BP cuff (it is inflated and checked very frequently during surgery) is a danger.

    You said you don't want to question his knowledge to his face but this is a case where you might have to. Ask for the studies. Tell him you want him to use your leg. It's uncomfortable but can be done. When I had my port surgery I had the cuff on my leg (lower leg) and the nurse apologized before she put it on for the increased discomfort. In my case it was actually less uncomfortable than an arm BP. If they are concerned about the difference in leg BP to arm BP (sometimes there is a difference) ask them to take your BP in your non-LE arm before the surgery to compare the values. IVs can be put in your leg or foot, too. If there are objections ask what they would do if they had a patient with only one arm having surgery in that arm!

    Best of luck.

    Leah

  • kira66715
    kira66715 Member Posts: 4,681
    edited June 2011

    Stavmom, there's been a movement to "debunk" lymphedema risk reduction as myths--because they are largely based on experience and not randomized studies (try doing a study where you cause a chronic disease in half the people, it's not ethical, and there's no money in LE, so it's not well studied.)

    But, those risk reduction behaviors have NEVER been proven safe, and if it triggers LE, it's incurable.

    Now, you are a different situation as you've already had a bout of LE in that arm, so now you're stage zero--no active swelling, but you do have LE.

    So, he's wrong. He can not touch that arm. Or should not touch it.

    Here's a link to a page we wrote for doctors on stepupspeakout:

    http://www.stepup-speakout.org/essential%20informat%20for%20healthcare%20providers.htm

    Here is a link to the NLN position papers:

    http://www.lymphnet.org/lymphedemaFAQs/positionPapers.htm

    Maybe you can let him know that you have LE in the other arm, and can you brainstorm some creative solutions to avoid traumatizing that arm.

    Good luck

    Kira 

  • lisa-e
    lisa-e Member Posts: 819
    edited June 2011

    I just had a discussion about this with my rheumatologist.  He wanted to take my blood pressure so I told him that he would need to use a thigh cuff.  He didn't have one, so was unhappy about being twarted.  He said he thinks it is silly to think that a taking blood pressure could trigger a flare up of LE.  I pointed out there were no studies indicating it was safe - he was unhappy.  I told him I have to answer to my LE therapist.  

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited June 2011

    I hesitated about getting a cortisone injection for fear of getting lymphadema when I had a recent frozen shoulder. I ended up with two shots...that did nothing and then had surgery and so far, so good. I researched lymphadema risk and surgery and was truly frightened. I remain truly confused about what my absolute risk actually was. The bottom line for me was that I needed the surgery and I haven't had any complications as of yet and I pray I don't. I am 4 weeks post surgery. Amen! Without a doubt, making decisions about what to do with the surgical arm is overwhelming.

  • sisterinspirit
    sisterinspirit Member Posts: 204
    edited June 2011

    Stavmom,

    It's your body, your arm and you are the one that will have to live with the consequences if the IV and blood pressure cuff aggravated the LE.  Regardless of whether IVs and blood pressure cuffs would make LE worse, your doctor should respect your concerns and find another solution.  Also, you may want to get a G sleeve to wear to alert medical personnel to avoid using your affected arm.  Check out g-sleeve.com.  Good luck to you!

  • Binney4
    Binney4 Member Posts: 8,609
    edited June 2011

    Stavmom,

    Lymphedema developed in my left arm as a result of a single blood pressure taken on that arm.

    If you decide not to risk it, DON'T hesitate to stand up for yourself. It's your arm -- and the rest of your life.

    Be well!
    Binney

  • stavmom
    stavmom Member Posts: 35
    edited June 2011

    Wow ladies....thank you SO much for taking the time to respond.  Such great info, and thank you especially for the links, Kira & Sisterinspirit.  I will check it out.  I had to have an IV in my foot last year, and boy did that hurt.  Not looking forward to this at all! 

  • Binney4
    Binney4 Member Posts: 8,609
    edited June 2011

    Tell them to use lidocaine for the IV insert. The last anesthesiologist I had insisted on it, even when the nurses were telling him it wasn't a big deal (it wasn't THEIR foot, for Pete's sake!) They might as well be kind to us, it's part of their job description.

    The hard part is sticking up for ourselves!Tongue out
    Binney

  • hymil
    hymil Member Posts: 826
    edited June 2011

    VoraciousReader, Glad you came through the surgery unscathed, hope all continues well.

    LeahIf there are objections ask what they would do if they had a patient with only one arm having surgery in that arm!  Very good point Laughing    well they would just have to use a leg wouldn't they, unless you're talking highly invasive central lines etc, so if they have no leg cuffs available they better go get one! Have they no paediatric cuffs either, because there are some ladies especially very elderly or oriental ladies with childsize arms: what do they use in the bariatric surgery section? They should have a full range of sizes. You will find the fat men's arm cuff goes round most normal size thighs.

    and Stavmom, it's not the surgeon you need to convince its the anaesthetic team. They are the ones normally more holistic, concerned about the whole patient coming out not just with a fixed elbow but generally actually alive and healthy. See if you can talk with them direct?

  • hymil
    hymil Member Posts: 826
    edited June 2011
    Binney: They might as well be kind to us, it's part of their job description  SurprisedLaughingSealed
  • lago
    lago Member Posts: 17,186
    edited June 2011

    There are times when it might be medically necessary to have IV in your arm but this isn't one of them. When I had my port surgery they put the IV in my foot… and I wasn't even diagnosed with LE  yet. They automatically gave me pink sleeves to wear on both my arms that said no BP or sticks.

    When I needed a CT scan of my liver I had to fight but I got the IV in my foot as demanded. (I think they knew I was about to walk out).

    It's your body. Your surgeon may very well believe the IV won't cause LE but the bottom line is if you get it you will be the one dealing with it the rest of your life.

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited June 2011

    Want to add, find out if you can have a pediatric IV. Not sure if that would decrease risk. I just remember that they have an awful tine drawing blood and putting in IVs in my good arm and they switched to pediatric IVs. Maybe that's an option with less risk. I was also told before my surgery if they couldn't get the IV in my arm, they would put it in my neck. I had IVs In my neck before and it wasn't bad. With this surgery that I had a few weeks ago, they put a pain pump catheter in my neck and it was terrific! Looking back, I think my team did everything they could do to reduce my risk. At the end of the day, I needed surgery on my affected arm and I am doing well. Make sure you do your homework and don't agree to do anything unless you are comfortable.

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited June 2011

    Thanks Hymill. It really was such a tough decision.

  • Nordy
    Nordy Member Posts: 2,106
    edited June 2011
    Stavmom - You are going to have to be your own advocate here... so dig in your heels and continue to refuse that IV and BP to your LE arm. There is absolutely NO reason why they cannot run BP's on your leg throughout the surgery. And if they cannot get an IV in your foot, they can always place a central line in your neck. The anesthesiologist or nurse anesthetist is the one that does central lines... and the one that ultimately calls the shots for IV placement. I had surgery in TX for a lump on my non LE side - the pre-op nurse argued with me that I would have to have my IV on my LE side (they don't normally like to have any IV on the same side as surgery - even if it is not surgery of the arm). I adamantly refused. She said, "Well, I will just have to talk to the anesthesiologist about this!" I told her to go right ahead. She came back with a totally different attitude and said that he approved using my non-LE side. Of course he did... because he had a brain. LOLOLOL. Look, like everyone else said, YOU are the one that will live with the consequences should the BP's and IV cause a flare - not your doctor. It easy for him to stand there and tell you that, when he is not the one that will be affected by a lifetime of wrapping, compression garments and other restrictions to keep things in check. As a patient, you have rights... one of them is being active in your own care - and that includes refusing an IV on your LE side. I would ask your doctor if he would prefer to treat you for cellulitis should your IV infiltrate and become infected on your LE side (which can and does occur even when someone doesn't have LE). Sorry, to be so blunt. I have very little patience for those in the medical field that approach a patient's concerns with such a flippant attitude. It pisses me off and I have had to deal with it both as a patient and as a medical professional. Sometimes MDs forget that patients have rights! Please advocate for yourself - this will not be the last time you have to do it - so start practicing now!!! Laughing
  • lorieg
    lorieg Member Posts: 802
    edited June 2011

    I had IVs, blood draws, etc in my feet for a year until my recent recurrence necessitated a port.  IVs in the feet are not fun but not that bad either.  I have even had large bore IVs for CT scans in my feet.  I always insist on bPs in my legs as well.

    Good luck!

    Lori

  • stavmom
    stavmom Member Posts: 35
    edited June 2011

    Thank you so much for everyone's support and ideas!  Asking for lidocaine hadn't even occured to me, nor a peds IV.  I'm not so sure I want to use this surgeon anymore. 

    Last week the lab had to poke me 7 times over 2 days just to draw a tube of blood (my blood is "thick" - ???) and my veins are so scarred and squirrely now. They were about to call for an arterial stick (anyone had one? is it truly awful?), and I was practically begging them just to try my LE arm instead, but they insisted they can't do that. 

    Thanks to everyone here, I feel SO MUCH more informed, with the courage to stand up for my needs.  You ladies rock. Cool

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