Curcumin and First Line Herceptin Monotheraphy

Anonymous · April 2011

I am posting here not to pick-up arguments or a fight or to prove anything (that I am right). I guess there are lots of women here who can provide an unbiased opinion. If you have an agenda to push please bring that agenda to another thread..

Let us dissect these clinical trials on Curcumin and Herceptin (first-line defense-- monotheraphy)

Curcumin Trial:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11694786

http://www.pdazzler.com/wp-content/pdf/curcumin-absorption.pdf

http://www.curcumin.co.nz/pdf/Curcumin_And_Her2.pdf

First-line Herceptin Monotheraphy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11694786

(I think this trial is about testing Herceptin alone without chemo before or during Herceptin infussions)

Discussions should be limited to IDC (invasive) , Her2+ (agressive)-- (Stage 2B or Stage 3 or above) - advanced cancers..

if you are stage 0 or stage 1-- please research more and post based on data that is only relevant to invasive, advanced and agressive cancers..

Anonymous · April 2011

ferretmom · April 2011

Hi nanay

The pubmed abstract is from the studies done with Herceptin and metastatic BC patients.

Not sure if there are any published results for those of us that are HER+ but not metastatic.

I do know my Onc feels that Herceptin is a must even if we refuse (or don't need) the other chemos. I was given Herceptin for a year.

Anonymous · April 2011

hi ferretmom.

were you given Herceptin alone --no chemo before or during Herceptin?

I saw in some other forums that some oncs really allow them to have Herceptin without the chemo (before or during). but 3 of the oncs we saw in Singapore told us we cannot do without the chemo-- I tried to get an explanation-- but they are dismissive.

I found that the oncotype dx and a few of the threads here actually gave me more information on why a certain type of cancers will not respond to chemo but will respond to Herceptin.

ferretmom · April 2011

Yes nanay, I was given Herceptin without any chemos. I also get Zometa every six months and take 50,000 units of Vit D3 weekly. We hope this will make my bones stronger.

My onc did tell me that it is not yet known how effective Herceptin alone is, but he believes it is effective and is recommending it to his HER+ patients.

Anonymous · April 2011

ferretmom,

that is good to know, what is your dosage? the clinical trial that I have posted here says that the overall response rate was 26% for those who take Herceptin alone as first line monotheraphy. dosage as follows:

low dose

weekly -- standard dose of 4mg/kg intial does followed by 2mg/kg intravenious

or high dose

weekly - high dose of 8mg/kg initial doese follwed by 4mg/kg intravenouse

did your onc explain to you why he did not prescribe chemo for you?

orange1 · April 2011

Hi Nanay,

Am at work now, but I just wanted to let you know I will take a look at the studies you posted later on today. I'll get back to you at lunch or this evening. (Don't want you to feel abandoned on your new thread after you asked for help.)

Anonymous · April 2011

I agree this study is for those who have mets..

but still , I think it proves that the effect is the same for those who took Herceptin alone or with chemo..

the survival rate (with mets) is 24.4 months for those who took Herceptin alone,

25 months for those who took Herceptin withouth chemo

survival rate is almost the same! but since there is no chemo-- less SEs.

what do you think? how about you?

LtotheK · April 2011

I'd also like to discuss how we can include curcumin into our therapies. Right now, I take fish oil, vitamin D, and a multi, all sanctioned by my oncologist and naturopath. Contraindications are an issue.

Isn't Herceptin chemo?

ferretmom · April 2011

nanay, my Herceptin dose was 4mg every 3 weeks for a year.

My Onc did want me to have chemo in addition, but after we discussed everything about my surgery, pathology, general health, age etc, we agreed the Herceptin alone would give me almost as good of a chance of non recurrence.

Anonymous · April 2011

LtotheK,

I really think you should include curcumin -- whether alone or inconjuction with other treatments, it has been fully tested at MD Anderson.. for advanced cancers..and has been proven safe.

I am still studying what GBM means and how it correlates to Her2-- it seems there is a link

based on the study Curcumin inhibits GBM cell proliferation as well as migration and invasion in all cell lines

while Herceptin induces GBM cell lines apoptosis and ADCC.

I do not know what ADCC means.. though

Herceptin is not classified as chemo.. its called immunotheraphy. you can check in the BCO website or her2positive.com

Anonymous · April 2011

ferretmom,

thats really encouraging for me. I read your previous posts.. you are also vegetarian.

just want to confirm you are also postmenopausal? my mother is.

its almost 11pm-- I will see if she is still awake-- and tell her about this. I will be online again in an hour or 2. thanks so much!

Anonymous · April 2011

orange

it helps that is is Friday night here.. no work tomorrow... so I will look up your response later. thanks!

Husband11 · April 2011

Are there results of any clinical trials for curcumin on breast cancer patients?

ferretmom · April 2011

Hi again nanay

Yes. I am post menopausal.

I am also extremely healthy other than BC Surprised

Anonymous · April 2011

timothy,

I think there are trials for curcumin for BC patients-- not sure though.. but I will go have a look.

read through the links I posted please.. its seems like the link is the term "GBM"..

one of the studies pointed out that Curcumin inhibits the profileration of not just cancer cells in the prostate

another resource pointed out saying that cancer cells whether it is in the breast or prostate is the same..

I will be back in an hour or 2-- my mother usually sleeps before 10pm but if I am awake, she is awake too ( computers banned in her bedroom)

ferretmom,

my mother use to say that as well as a way to make people around her comfortable-- " I am healthy-- no diabetes, no hypertension-- i just have BREAST CANCER" --

I do think your healthy diet - prior to DX and today helps you to combat this disease. Breast Cancer as you know is caused not only by poor diet (not the case for you)-- but also other factors such as genes, environmental exposures, and if these attacks to your system happened at a time when you are most vulnerable (e.g. adolesence, pregnancy-- or time when you are under extreme stress)...causing gene mutation or for your cells to turn abnormal and then become cancerous.

Add to the fact, that even if we eat vegetables-- you still have to make healthy choices-- organic preferably.

LtotheK · April 2011

Timothy, like most non-conventional treatments, the study results are early, and small (one colon cancer study had 15 patients, for instance). American Cancer Society and a host of university sites post information about curcumin. I think it will pan out to be a good choice.

However, the dosage levels are completely unclear. My naturopath suggested anything in tab form wasn't going to act as an anti-cancer drug. However, I know it has tons of other health benefits, and I would seriously consider it.

There is another very serious factor, and that is contraindications with mainstream drugs. My oncologist was really upset day before yesterday that I was taking a bunch of herbal supplements with my Tamoxifen. She said there will never be enough study to show what their interactions are, positive, negative or neutral.

It's a difficult personal choice, but today I feel gunshy about what to take. I take D as that seems very clear cut (though some new studies are showing differing results); calcium as recommended by my oncologist (though more extensive reading through naturopathic journals suggests this might not be the best way to build bone); and fish oil, as I am hot flashing my brains out. Hopefully, those do not have serious contraindications!

Nanay, thank you for starting this forum, it will be wonderfully informative, as many smart folks are already with us!

MarieKelly · April 2011

Nanay, I read the whole journal article (not just the abstract) titled "First Line Herception Monotherapy...". These patient were all previously treated for breast cancer with chemo (68%), anthracyclines 51%, and transplants (I assume bone marrow) 13%. 6% of them also recieved radiotherapy and 37% hormonal therapy. These are not people who only got herceptin.

Heidihill · April 2011

GBM is glioblastoma multiforme, a brain tumor.

ADCC is antibody dependent cell mediated cell cytotoxity, which is how Herceptin drives the immune system to kill cancer cells, my guess, since Herceptin is a monoclonal antibody.

I linked this in the other thread but just in case people didn't see it

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799236/

It's relatively recent and concludes that with herceptin HER2+ disease has a better prognosis than HER2- disease. It also indicates that hormone receptor + is a bonus with HER2+.

Anonymous · April 2011

mariekelly,

I believe the whole study you are reading at is the phase 1 and phase2 trial. can you email me the whole journal please?

the abstract seems to say that it is Herceptin only.. anyone else who have read it?

Anonymous · April 2011

LtotheK,

Our oncologists and BC nurse also gave my mother VitD supplements along with Tamoxifen..

and yes,they are also against herbal supplements-- although they allow traditional chinese medicine (TCM) -- the Cancer Center here has a TCM clinic right in the middle of the compound.. the problem is the TCM practitioners speak only in Chinese and we have to talk to them with an interpreter.. they also insist that we have to take the chemo/Rx together with TCM.

We stopped seeing the TCM practitioner 6 months after my mother's mastectomy (because of language issue-- its so hard for me to speak in English wait for the interpreter to translate my questions in Chinese-- then practitioner to speake in chinese then to be interpreted to me in English-- then I have to interpret it into Filipino language to my mother and back ).....

they gave us a black cocktail of different herbs for my mother's recovery from surgery. not really sure if it helped or if it was the pure cranberry juice (Brand name is Century 21)-- that helped her recover faster from surgery-- even the BC nurse was surprised that her surgery stitches healed quite fast.

am not really sure whether the TCM cocktail, cranberry juice, tumeric juice or the BReuss juice that did it for my mother's fast recovery from surgery.. as well as healing of her chronic arthritis..after seeing the results-- the BC nurse did not make anymore comments about what she took after surgery.

I can just say that Turmeric is a major part of her diet for the 15 months..

moreover,the clinical trials done at MD Anderson says there are relatively no SE for people with pancreatic cancer-- taking turmeric alone

Anonymous · April 2011

Hi, thanks for starting this thread! I am very interested in curcumin, and also Herceptin, since I have HER2+ disease.

Here are some thoughts:

The first journal article is from 2001, back when Herceptin was in trial mode. It has since been fully approved by the FDA for breast cancer treatement of women with HER2+ disease. I am sure there must have been many subsequent studies that led to its approval, and now it is the main line of defense after "standard" chemo for HER2+ patients.

As for curcumin, I have purchased a Champion juicer and buy raw, whole turmeric roots at the local Indian market. They are cheap and plentiful. I run 5 or 6 roots through the juicer each day along with an apple, then drink it. It is VERY YELLOW, and will stain everything it touches, including the juicer and your own skin. Anything fabric will be ruined by the yellow dye. Your skin will begin to turn a little bit yellow from it too, but it's a pleasant, tan-like color.

When you buy the turmeric, be careful to check for small spots of mold. To avoid growing mold, store the turmeric uncovered in your fridge, or wrapped in a paper towel, not in a plastic bag.

I am starting a year of a herceptin-based trial drug called TDM-1 as soon as I finish A/C (adriamycin/cytoxan) chemo first.

Anonymous · April 2011

windlass,

yes, the trials (phase 1 and 2 were completed in 2001 -- in 2001 as well they have just started a study on Herception only (no chemo before or during Herceptin infusions)...so I guess by now, it has already been completed..

even her2positive site says that First-Line Herceptin Monotheraphy is allowed -- but I wonder our oncs here did not allow my mother to get Herceptin without the chemo-- but ferretmom did.. she was able to get Herceptin without the chemo.

about Curcumin..

we put turmeric powder (about half a teaspoon) while our brown rice is boiling-- we add a few raisins..its yummy! and the yellow color makes the brown rice look more appetizing on a white plate...

Anonymous · April 2011

Nanay: Your mom has lymph node involvement, so that's probably why they want her to do an aggressive chemo regimen. They definitely want me to do everything I can to beat the cancer, including chemo, followed by AC.

Anonymous · April 2011

hi windlass,

that is the point.. chemo treats cancer in a different way (kill both normal and cancer cells).. we do not want that..while Herceptin targets only the Her2 receptors-- so I think not a bad thing..

anyway--to chemo or not to chemo-- is not the subject of our thread.. but I guess corellated to the topic.. thanks anyway.

here is another discovery from

http://curcuminresearch.org

Curcumin inhibits the different types of cancer progression not only for pancreatic cancer but also breast cancer (overexpression of Her2)... so if you are Her2 negative.. you are probably overexpressing other receptors-- see from the list below..Herceptin only inhibits Her2 but Curcumin inhibits more...

Anonymous · April 2011

Anonymous · April 2011

An article from Dr. Susan Love Research Foundation also said that (thanks to lago for posting the link to WOM's thread-- find it hard to copy and paste)

Her2 is present in even DCIS (non -invasive) and Her2 is present in only 25% of invasive breast cancer cases.. so she said it is not necessarily true that being tested positive for Her2, increases your risk of recurrence
since DCIS does not normally progress to invasive cancer, Her2 maybe telling other cells to grow, but it does not tell the cells to invade tissues ( a condition for malignancy)
Her2 does not act alone... just like criminals it does the most damage with the help of other bad guys.
Her2 will not cause much trouble without the help of proteins such as EGF (epidermal growth factor)

However, still Dr. Susan Love, did not let go of the chemo part of treatment, she still said that Herceptin will work better with doxorubicin (brand name of Adrimycin)..

I wonder if there was a clinical study done to compare Herceptin + doxorubicin

to Herceptin + curcumin -- since curcumin inhibits both EGF and Her2 overexpression (among many others-- including those substances found in other cancers such as pancreatic and brainc cances)..

If Herceptin only inhibits Her2, what does it do with EGF and all of the other substances that could be present in your cancer cells?

Is there a diagnostic test to determine if your cancer has EGF?What does doxorubicin do with EGF? it seems Dr. Love has pointed out other factors that cause cancer cells to invade tissues-- but promoted doxorubicin in a subtle way-- without addressing the EGF issue..

just thinking out loud..

Anonymous · April 2011

going back to the First Line Herceptin Monotheraphy clinical study, I asked my friend (who is a nurse), she said she have the same understanding

phase 2 & phase 3 trials (conducted and completed in 2001)

proved efficacy of 1. Chemo first then Herceptin and 2. Chemo + Herceptin at the same time
survival rate for advanced BC with mets is 24 months

the current trial (current as of 2001) -- but already completed in 2009

tested 114 patients divided into 2 groups (group 1- low dosage group 2 - high dosage)
survival rate for advanced BC with mets is 25 months

concluded that First-line Herceptin monotherapy --- which means Herceptin alone (without chemo before or during) is an important new option for Her2 positive women with advanced BC.

Anonymous · April 2011

Hi, Naynay:

I'm going to contact Dr. Aggarwal (the curcumin researcher at MD Anderson) on Monday to ask his opinion on AC + Herceptin vs. Curcumin + Herceptin. I'd also like to ask his opinion on cucumin supplementation *during* AC, and what quantity of turmeric root he recommends daily. (I take mine as juice).

Are there any additional questions you would like me to ask him?

Anonymous · April 2011

wow windlass!!

thank you very much! I actually thought of calling MD Anderson and pretend I am a reporter and would like to interview Dr. Aggrawal..

will think of other things to ask.. then post here later..

Anonymous · April 2011

can you ask him to publish his studies on Curcumin and also his insights regarding Herceptin in simple plain English language with diagrams? there are lots of non-native English speakers like me who would benefit from it...

are they considering to conduct a clinical trial to compare:

Herceptin + doxorubicin
Herceptin + curcumin
Herceptin - firstline monotheraphy
Curcuim only

for Her2+ positive women...

Curcumin and First Line Herceptin Monotheraphy

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