I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

Lewing:  Maybe you should fill your daughter in with the rest of the story about that battle.  My DP seems to know more about it than I do (he is older that I am, or course!) and says even God was on "our" side because a hurricane hit and that's what kept the White House from being burned to the ground.  To think, we have been running away all these years from hurricanes and one actually saved our White House. 

Don't forget that in 1815 they beat the Hell out of the British, killed Packenham and about 5000 British soldiers by only 100 Americans at Chalmette, La.  So even tho the song makes fun of us and I can take a joke, our kids should know that there is more to this than what is in that song and we Americans have won our share of battles.

Go America!

I'm running a live stream from Tahrir Square right now.  It's awesome.  I'm so inspired by the courage and resolve of the Egyptian people.

L

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/11/egypt.protests/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

I'm watching it stream live on CNN just now too.

I'm watching and in tears.

lewing, love your post.  This may explain some of my Canadian embracing tendencies - one of my husband's kind of famous ancestors fought in the War of 1812 - ta da, drumroll please....he was in the British Indian Department. 

Revkat - your questions are exactly on point. But people think "we got rid of a dictator, so things must be good" and as we know that is far from the truth.

But what happened in Iraq is nothing compared with what happened in the former Yugoslavia...

Did I not get the memo?  I'm detecting some solidarity here, among BCO members' avatars...

Arab-Islamic Middle East and Democracy are Totally Incompatible

For all of the following reasons: Political, social, cultural, and regime-performance, Arab-Islamic Middle East and democracy are totally incompatible. It took Europe 500 years to become liberal and democratic, and it will take much longer for the Middle East. Democracy will not bring peace, and peace will not enhance democracy.

There are three kinds of distinctive political regimes: The totalitarian; the authoritarian; and democracy. Although there are many kinds of democracy, it is distinctively different from authoritarian and totalitarian. Democracy is characterized by the following dimensions: a) Individual freedoms and civil liberties; b) The rule of the law is above all; c) Sovereignty and citizenship empowered by the people; d) The absolute equality of all citizens before the law; e) Vertical and horizontal accountability of ruling system; f) Responsiveness, eligibility, and transparency of ruling systems; g) Mobility, political participation, and equality of opportunity.

Democratization is Still Far Away

The Middle East is comprised of only authoritarian regimes and patrimonial leaderships, as military regimes and as monarchies. None of the states is a real democracy, and none of them have the above-mentioned ingredients of democracy. The existence of parliaments, political parties, and elections is not important, since they do not share the whole political process and do not participate, or even influence the decision-making process. Democratization of the Middle East is a long process and still far away. What one can find are civilianizational processes in some military regimes, but even these are not leading to democratization. There is no political liberalism and not even economic liberalism.

Islam is Against Democracy

All Arab states are Muslim, except of Israel, and the first article in their constitution declares that the religion of the state is Islam. Lebanon is an exception, although Lebanon does not have the ingredients and components of a state, and will soon become Shiite under Iranian rule.

Islam is against democracy. Islam stresses authoritarianism, submission, patrimonial rule and lack of freedoms. Muslim scholars and Western Islamists claim that Islam and democracy are compatible; that Islamic values are the real source of democratic perceptions; and that the values and practice of Islam is the origin of human freedoms and the best proof of Allah's greatness. But this is a pure propagation, a Da`wah delivered for the Western public opinion's consumption. In fact, Islam and democracy are totally incompatible, and Islam clearly leads to the ruin of all values that we so dearly respect and cherish.

The US Should Devote its Energies to Pursuing its Real Interests

The reality is that Arab-Islamic history as much as contemporary, clearly show that in the Middle East there is anything but democratic liberal processes. There are no sovereign states led by an electorate and certainly no civic societies. There is no concept of citizen's rights or freedoms and social miserability and economic wretchedness dominates the whole way of life. Leadership has always been the prerogative of the ruling elite, religious and military, who are coercive and subduing.

The West cannot and should not enhance and hasten democracy in the Middle East. The balance sheet is really a tragedy: In Iraq (where anarchy and chaos are the real mark); in Lebanon (where Hezbollah takes the lead to transform Lebanon to a Shiite state); in the Palestinian Authority (where Hamas took control in Gaza and lead the Palestinians, bringing Abu Mazen to obscurity and obsoleteness); And in Pakistan (where Bhutto was murdered and the Mujahiddin are on the offensive and are about to take hold of this nuclear state).

In the Middle East democracy is not at the corner, and the US should devote its energies to pursuing and keeping its real interests.

Read more: Can Democracy Thrive in the Middle East? | Answerbag Debates http://www.answerbag.com/debates/democracy-thrive-middle-east_1855469#ixzz1DKI1qe4E

They're tribal!

But ... but ... but ...  George Bush and the Republicans said we needed to invade Iraq to install democracy.  And that all the other states in the region would then follow their example.  Have the Republicans changed their minds about that?  Or just acknowledged that it was all a bunch of baloney to do what they wanted to do for other reasons?     

Back to Wonderland for me.   

Laura, I'll include but a couple of examples from the other side of the argument where you copied all of the "anti" arguments also from the site that you link, I'm sure you just forgot it:

Years and years and years ago, when I was a young International Relations student focused on the Middle East and North Africa---its history and governments-- I viewed the Sadat assassination and what came after.  Never did I dream that Mubarak would still be in power or that the state of emergency declared on that day would still be going strong some 30 years later.  what an interesting thing to watch!  I think the key to what happens with Egypt will lie in what comes next and whether the Army conducts the elections as scheduled and what percentage of the vote the Muslim brotherhood gets.  Lebanon is not really a good comparasion to anything---it is so diverse that it is difficult to get a concensus [and note for the record that some of the most difficult players in Lebanon have always been the Christians.   Look up Sabra and Shatila if you doubt me.]

Back to my very favorite subject, history, back in the days of the Caliphate, the Islamic leaders in Spain were far more democratic than the Europeans who followed.  It was, after all, the European/Spanish who launched that delightful Inquisition that caused formerly Jewish converts to Catholicism to go through the streets publically eatting pork in vain effort to persuade neighbors they were good Catholics.  It was in the Islamic portion of the world that Muslims, Christians and Jews all lived together in peace while in the more "civilized" Europe, Jews were relegated to the Judenstrasse with doors that locked at night.

In my humble opinion and based on some limited study, the Taliban, Al Q and the like is an anomally to Islam just as I like to think certain radical Christian groups are an anomally to Christianity.

Do you think its possible that my youngest is a sleeper Canadian?  Or did he catch the Canadian virus?  He adores hockey and ever since our trip to Vancouver last summer, swears when he grows up he will be Canadian and live in BC. . . .

Shirley:  My head is "never" in the sand!  First of all, I have always wondered why the US thinks our type of government is so perfect that everyone else needs to be like "us"!  This revolution has come to an end too quickly and I think something is going on behind the scenes that we don't and are not meant to know about.  Maybe certain ones of the people want a "type" of democracy which will give them more rights in their government but something is very wrong here.  I would love to hear what the Egyptian people are really thinking about this sudden action by their "former" President.   I think the Islamic Extremists are waiting and biding their time to pounce!   People like this can be very patient when it comes to getting what they want.   I want to feel happy about this resolution but in the pit of my stomach I can't be.  I do hope I am wrong about my feelings and it will have a good and peaceful ending.   Time will tell.

Barbara ... welcome to Friday's deleted 't-shirt' day!

Hope your brother is improving .. you've been on my mind.

Bren