soy and (estrogen-receptor positive) dcis_

yes, I will have to look for them  I am encouraged to eat soy  - but I am ER -.

I work with an excellent oncon. dietitian.  That would probably be a good idea for you.

 I am also a vegetarian.  I found a great Whey protein shake at Costco - 35 grams per serving

I would encourage you to get a referral from your oncologist to see a BC dietitian

I've never seen any definitive studies on soy as it relates to breast cancer (and particularly, ER+ breast cancer).  The larger studies that show that soy provides a positive benefit have almost exclusively been done in China, where the type of soy that is consumed is different and where women have consumed soy since birth, which could impact how their bodies metabolize soy.  So the relevance of these studies to women who have grown up on a North American diet is suspect.

The studies that show that soy has a negative effect are been done in North America and are all small studies and/or animal studies.  But these have raised enough concerns to raise the red flag about soy.  As a result, from what I've seen, most experts in the field of diet and breast cancer suggest that while soy shouldn't be avoided totally, it also shouldn't be consumed in large quantities.

Here is a very good summary of all the information available about soy and breast cancer up to 2006:  Addressing the Soy and Breast Cancer Relationship

The American Cancer Society offers free nutrition consultations with a nutritionist. I did one and was told they recommend to avoid soy.  She even told me to check my vitamins as most multi vitamins contain soy too (I got home and checked and mine did contain soy).  I haven't found a lot of information that seems concrete on what to avoid for ER/PR+ BC.  The one site I have been spending time on is www.foodforbreastcancer.com.  I don't know how reputable it is, but it has the most information I can find so far.  Good luck!

Beesie = I would suggest you do some research concering the San Antonio Breat Cancer yearly senimar.

You should not be suggesting here that Soy is OK for certain women, AGAIN you are not a DR.

Fellow BC survivors - please talk to your ocon regarding this.  The research changes on these subjects.

 I think I'm pretty up-to-date on the research.  Here's what BC.org have to say about soy, specific to what was presented at San Antonio this past December:

Soy and flax in relation to ER+ breast cancer?
Question from julie: What is the thought now on soy/flax intake in estrogen-receptor-positive breast cancers?

Answers -Eric Winer, M.D.: I always tell patients the same thing about this: they should eat foods that they enjoy, and that provide good nourishment. I do not believe that women need to either increase or decrease their consumption of either soy or flax to prevent a recurrence of cancer since we do not have data to support such a recommendation. I think concentrated soy products are foods, so I don't think people should eat them as a medicine. If someone wants to drink soymilk, that's OK with me.
Marisa Weiss, M.D.: Soy foods such as soy milk, tofu, edamame, etc. can be a healthy part of your diet if you enjoy them, but I have concerns about people using pharmaceutically concentrated soy products beyond what they're taking for nutritional needs. We just don't know the safety when you load up on these items. 

Source:  December 2010: Updates from the 2010 San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium 

And here's what BC.org had to say about soy last year, following the 2009 San Antonio conference:

Is any amount of soy safe for people with breast cancer?
Question fromrev002: Is any amount of soy safe to use if you have breast cancer?

Answer -Kathy Miller, M.D.: There is information from some new studies suggesting that soy is safe to eat and that women who had a diet higher in soy had a lower risk of recurrence. It's important to remember that there may have been many other differences besides the amount of soy they ate, and this study did not look at soy supplements that you might find in a health food store.

Source: December 2009: Updates from the 2009 San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium 

gymnut, as I recall, most of the studies that have come out since 2006 have actually been more favorable towards soy but most of these come from China so it's questionable as to whether these results are meaningful to those of us with western diets. There was a study that got a lot of press just recently, suggesting that soy consumption cuts recurrence risk for those diagnosed with BC (even those who are ER+) but the study was done in China and all the participants were Chinese.  I was really frustrated by all the positive press that this study received, with virtually no mention at all of the fact that the results might not be relevant at all to women in the West.  

Erica, I so agree with Deirdre in regard to Beesie. Beesie and I may differ in treatment options, but I respect her study, and opinions. She is an incredible source of knowledge, and support to bc women, who come here to BCO. When she says something, even though I think too much outside the box of conventional medicine, I still listen to her. Deirdre has also been here since I first visited BCO...around Dec. 2007. She is someone that also has stayed around to support bc women struggling especially with mx, b.c. screenings, and other issues. I appreciate their kind approach.

BTW...B.C. Women, who have thyroid problems, I believe aren't suppose to have soy. There's a good alternative thread on the thyroid, iodine and cancer connection...which mentions the soy topic.
Hope you don't feel ganged upon....
(((HUGS)))

You certainly have a lot of time on your hands Beesie,  you disagree with everything I say in a matter of minutes !

There are different types of FLAX and SOY.  My oncology dietitian who specializes in breast cancer explained the differences, she only recommend one type of flax and said to include it everyday ! also steered me away from certain soy products and encouraged others

I have read a lot of conflicting info about the soy as well.  I have read Christine Norrups books, Dr. Weiss's books, nutrition guides, listened to my oncologist and read Suzanne sommers book KNockout and what conclusion I have come to is this,  Eat natural soy products only and they are good for you.  Any thing that is considered a soy supplement is not.  Anyone else?

"Bessie oversteps her bounds here and then calls out her little force to defend and delete posts she and friends do not agree with"

BCSUCKS (formerly Erica31)-- 

Could you identify any specific threads where the pattern indicated that Beesie and friends were deleting posts that she did not agree with?  I do not remember ever seeing that.  I do remember you going back and deleting your own posts after others provided evidence disagreeing with what you said.  

BCSUCKS:  Boy you will wait a very long time for a physician to put up information here!  That's why we have come to respect the research that Beesie does and I don't think she has EVER suggested that she has all the answers - it's called respect - she's earned it for some of us (most of us I would imagine). Even though this site is put together by an advisory board of medical individuals (and we are very appreciative of that!) it is VERY RARE to hear from a physician to confirm or overturn any research here!  This is a discussion site and so patients are very often all you will hear from here - so her opinion (and the opinions of very many other's) are very much appreciated by me..  So please be careful with your barbs!  Thanks!!! 

Gymnut--

Don't worry about the spats that go on.  Nothing you posted caused them. 

This site has the same range of personalities that you would find in the regular world and people who are talking about a subject that was emotionally difficult for them.  Sometimes past history intrudes into new threads. 

Most long time members are just trying to be helpful and are usually protective of newbies, because we know that the early time is the most difficult.  There is so much information to absorb and so many decisions to make. 

gymnut, as redsox indicated, the spat that is playing out in this thread has nothing to do with anything that you've said.  Don't worry about.  I'm just sorry that it's taking away from the discussion that you started about soy.  And I apologize in advance what I will write next.

Erica31/Daisy6, NO I HAVE NEVER DELETED ANY OF YOUR POSTS.  Nor have I ever sent you a nasty PM.  I couldn't remember ever sending you any PMs; fortunately the system here doesn't allow us to delete PMs that we've sent, so I decided to check back just to see if my memory was faulty.  Turns out that it was.  Here is the one PM exchange that you and I had, in December 2008: (The exchange is in reverse order, with the original PM from you at the bottom, then my response above it and then your response above that. I know that we are not supposed to publicly post PMs but since you mentioned it....)

******************************************************************************** 

Subject: Thank you THank you
From: daisy6
Date: Dec 16, 2008 08:53 pm

THank you very much. You cannot believe what a weight your e-mail just lifted off my shoulders !

I am getting so sick of Dr's etc. I am going to put off the Mayo until after the holidays.

Take Care

----------  (I have deleted your real name to maintain your privacy)

Beesie said: 

Hi --------! (I have again deleted your real name to maintain your privacy)

No, after the mastectomy I didn't have any other treatment. And I had a single mastectomy only, plus I had a microinvasion of IDC. Rads usually isn't recommended for someone who has a mastectomy for DCIS. I actually had one close margin with the DCIS (1mm) but rads still weren't recommended (it would have been different if the margin had been close on the microinvasion of IDC). Quite a few of the DCIS women on this site have been in the same situation and it's probably at least 10 to 1 against rads in terms of doctor's recommendations. I know a few of the women have had 2nd and 3rd opinions at major hospitals and they've come back saying no to rads. So it will be interesting to see what the Mayo Clinic says.

As for being HER2+++, this isn't considered relevant for DCIS. That's because a lot of DCIS is HER2+++ vs. only about 20% of IDC. So the docs & scientists don't know why DCIS is so often highly HER2+. And the studies to date haven't shown that HER2+++ status on DCIS makes any difference in the aggressiveness of the cancer, unlike for IDC where HER2+++ cancers are definitely more aggressive. So often HER2 status isn't even reported for DCIS because it doesn't have any impact on the treatment. Again, it will be interesting to see what Mayo say.

Hope that helps. And let me know what you hear from the Mayo Clinic. I think getting a 2nd opinion from them is a really good idea.

Beesie 

daisy6 said:

HI Beesie

I had a very similiar situation to yours. High grade DCIS in one breast. I had a doublle mast. in Oct. I am Her +++. I had a group of Dr;s review my records. THey believe that RADS is my best course or action for now.

Did you have any treatment?

My Dr. also wants me to go to the Mayo for a second opinion

THANKS

--------- (I have again deleted your real name).

****************************************************************************** 

Well that was a nasty PM exchange, wasn't it? Really, Daisy, please just stop this. Yes I know that you don't like me.  Everybody knows that.  This all stems from one issue - the fact that you say that you have a DCIS Stage I diagnosis and the fact that I contend that pure DCIS is always Stage 0.  So we disagree.  Fine.  Lots of people on this board disagree. Get over it.  And stop insulting me, slandering me, and lying about what I've said or what I've done. And most importantly, stop turning every thread in which you and I happen to participate together into a battleground. I have no interest in arguing with you however if you start it up (as you did here), I will not allow your insults and lies to go unanswered.

I do want to thank you for getting me to look back at all my old PMs. I ran across a bunch of PMs from some wonderful women who are no longer with us, women like AlaskaDeb and RobinTN. It reminded me of what's really important.   

wow- let me duck my head in here with an opinion...and that is all it is, a layperson's opinion. Prior to BX I took soy in any form I could to boost my estrogen...as I was reiterating to my oncologist my diet and my version of natural hormone suppressors ( I had already dropped the soy-made sense since it had balanced out my hormones nicely during perimenopause) when I got to ground flax seed (recommended most frequently here on BCO and other sites) she shouted NO! (I always question authority) Hmmmm....so I did some of my own little research (I do it for a living,but that is another story)and lo and behold, while flaxseed oil is apparently ok, when taken in its ground form it is apparently an estrogen booster. Hmmmm....I found this on several blind searches as if I was looking for a way to boost my estrogen not stave off my ER+ cancer....and I was warned that only the ground version would help. So, taken with an oncologist I trust more than I don't (despite her love of pharmaceuticals:)  I choose to forgo soy products and ground flax seed. I don't think minute traces of soy will impact me as therapeutic levels were all rather intense and since I don't live in China and have the benefit (!>?) of good old american poor food quality, I am not going to gamble on it. It just isn't worth it to me. I will try to emulate more of an chinese or japanese diet as until the western food style made inroads into those countries, they enjoyed the lowest numbers of BC. Unfortunately, now their rates are creeping up. There are so many changes we all need to do and I will do my best to employ them. It is like beef. I like a steak like nobody's business...alas, I amtold not so good for me - even before BC, so I had already limited my intake to a good one every month or two. It is enough. Vegetables have always been part of my diet and now more so. But like the yin and yang of life, even certain ones of those can be impactful upon a particular person's well-being. I can't eat too much fruit or I gain weight! We are all different, both in body types and dx. I think the best thing is to learn as much as we can, check out the facts (as they are today- as they tend to change everyday depending on what study is published) and see what we think. It is easier for me to forgo something that the jury is out on then to bend the studies to fit my needs and wants - something i am working on as I like to be the master of my own little universe! One thing I know for sure absolutely without doubt is that the less processed food that goes into our bodies the better it is. No matter what that food is. I will still reach for a handful of hot cheeto curls every so often, as I find that deprivation makes me miserable, yet I find when i am eating healthy for the most part, then those forbidden tastes just don't taste as good as they once did. Extremes of any kind do not seem to be right in any case. We all have to be open to trying new things as we fight the battle of our lives. Right now I am doing an experiment that has my onc crazy but willing to go along with (as if she has a choice -I mean really, is she going to come to myhouse and watch me take a pill?) I am trying a natural alternative to lowering my estrogen levels before facing an AI. Once I see the numbers, I will then revaluate if my choices are right or if I need to reconsider. Hard cold numbers do not lie unlike theories. In this case, I hope my theory is right. If not, then I will see. And before anyone thinks I am presenting myself as a grandpoobah of health knowledge know that this very bright woman is in the final throes of battling cigarettes and while it is a horrific battle, it is one I will win. Do I want to give up something that has been my go to drug for years? Hell no but I will as the wakeup call of BC solidified what I already knew and just kept pushing away under the justification that I was healthy in every other way. Done playing russian roulette  as BC has taught me we never know where the danger lies no matter what precautions we take. I have been scared of lung cancer or emphsyma (sp) and that nasty *ss BC snuck in when I was not looking. Phew, did not mean to turn this into war and peace b ut once I get going...let me also toss in I think having bco as a place to vent and yes, even argue is a good place to alleviate stress, which is a major influence on all illnesses in my mind. As long as it does not take it to the level of causing even more stress and anger. Counterproductive. I think we are all scared witless to a point no matter how capable and strong we may sound through our words. We are all sistahs in a family we did not want to be a part of and sistahs fight, even when we love each other....just put down the sharp objects:) Anyway, that's just the way I see it.  

Bessie's post on 1/22 around 10:27 is what did it for me. Made me comfortable with soy and flax as I consume them.



The quoted sources of Weiner/Weiss and their plain talking recommendations distilled from their solid knowledge base is as good as it gets for me. I remain open to other trusted health advisors that make sense to me, such as Ornish.



Annettek touched me too. I wish you, annettk, the very best as you stop smoking. Once our health is questioned, looking at the whole when the immediate crises calms can be lifesaving too. I have my own areas to clean up, most of us do.