Anyone else in the same situation?

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LuvRVing
LuvRVing Member Posts: 4,516
Anyone else in the same situation?

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  • LuvRVing
    LuvRVing Member Posts: 4,516
    edited August 2010

     My hospital pathology report came back triple negative with a ki-67 index of 90!  So, it was a good decision to proceed with the lumpectomy as quickly as we did.  That tumor was growing so fast my body couldn't keep it supplied with blood, so there was lots of necrosis around the tumor.  My Oncotype score came back as 51, 34% chance of distant recurrence.  But it is probably not that meaningful (or is it?) because the Oncotype test is for ER+ BC.  Here's the dilemma:  my ER score was 6.2.  The minimum for ER+ is 6.5.  So it's mighty close.  My original biopsy pathology indicated "weakly positive" which would seem to be consistent with the Oncotype test. 

    Because I am Type 2 diabetic, I have done a boatload of research on the outcomes of diabetics on chemo and the story is not good at all.  And one of the side effects of the "T" chemo drug is neuropathy in up to 70% of patients.  Neuropathy in a diabetic is bad, bad, bad and leads to things like gastroparesis and amputations, not counting the pain.  And the "chemo" diet excludes things like fresh fruits and veggies (unless you can peel them - so forget about the salads) which are the main staples of a diabetic whose trying to minimize side effects and maintain good control.  And has you eating the BRAT diet or whatever refined carbs you can "stomach" during those "nauseated" days after your treatment.   And oh yeah, the steroids that are pretty much a requirement send glucose levels into the stratosphere, which leads to more neuropathy, possible vascular damage and kidney/liver damage.

     The numbers are scary, the chances for recurrence are higher than I'd hoped, yet the real threat from chemo to my diabetic condition seems worse than the threat of a BC recurrence. 

    It is likely that my oncologist, who I am seeing on Friday, is going to "highly recommend" chemo because there are no hormonal treatments in the toolbox....unless the "weak positive" nature of my ER score is enough to let him recommend an AI. 

     Anyone else been there, done that? 

    Anyone weakly positive and taking AI's on the hope they provide some help?

    Anyone triple negative and pass on chemo ?

    Anyone older and diabetic and escape the wrath of long term side effects? For some reason, there are no real studies that I can find on this topic.  Might have to start one!!!

    I'm leaning heavily towards no chemo as it would seem my 4 clear biopsied nodes indicated little chance that cancer cells have invaded my bloodstream.    I may be hoping that research in the next few years shows promise of something like an AI for triple negs and take my chances. 

    After all, a 34% chance of recurrence means a 66% chance of no recurrence.

    Michelle

  • BarbaraA
    BarbaraA Member Posts: 7,378
    edited August 2010

    Oh MIchelle, I wish I had advice or my own experience to pass on to you but I can only offer you big {{{HUGS}}}.

  • ruthbru
    ruthbru Member Posts: 57,235
    edited August 2010

    I think you need to get an Endocrinologist or another doctor who specializes in the treatment of diabetis involved in your treatment plan right from the start; he/she should be working with you and your oncologist to develop a treatment plan that would make the most sense, all the way around, for you. Best of Luck! Ruth

  • LuvRVing
    LuvRVing Member Posts: 4,516
    edited August 2010

    Thanks, Ruth.  I have thought about that and will not proceed with chemo without an endo on the team.  I am a well-controlled Type 2 and have never needed an endo.  But this is sooo different!

     Michelle

  • LuvRVing
    LuvRVing Member Posts: 4,516
    edited August 2010

    Barbara - thanks!  This emotional roller coaster is going to make me nuts! 

    The good news is that onco #1 who I had no intention of ever seeing again, called me this afternoon and we had a pretty good conversation.  I told him I was getting a second opinion on Friday, he asked me to call him on Monday. We talked about a "gentler" chemo approach and he said "it's a compromise, but better than nothing."  I challenged him to find a study demonstrating good outcomes for diabetics with BC doing chemo, so maybe he'll find something.  He agreed that "T" would not be a good way to go, so that is a change from his initial thoughts.  He also indicated he would prescribe AIs, even though the "weak ER" status means they might not be effective.   

    I'm hanging in there, one day at a time.  At least the Mammosite rad treatments are going well - 60% down!

    Michelle

  • ruthbru
    ruthbru Member Posts: 57,235
    edited August 2010

    I think that is the best plan. The reason I thought of it was that a friend of mine had some big health concerns (but not diabetes, so I don't have any specific insight about that part of it). When she was diagnosed with BC, she got and endo involved right from the start. He brought another perspective to the team, and she felt a lot better about the treatment decisions which were made with his input.

  • Titan
    Titan Member Posts: 2,956
    edited August 2010

    Probably a stupid question..but why can't you eat fresh fruits and veggies during chemo?  

  • ruthbru
    ruthbru Member Posts: 57,235
    edited August 2010

    You can. I did......veggies tasted creepy, fruit tasted pretty good, mashed potatoes with butter and cheese tasted best. Your taste buds can get very strange, but there is nothing that you can't or have to eat.

  • LuvRVing
    LuvRVing Member Posts: 4,516
    edited August 2010

    I read on the affiliated site:  http://www.breastcancerwarrior.net/   that you should not eat anything you cannot peel and to scrub carefully even melons before cutting into them.  There is a risk of picking up an infection.  Here's the link to the specifics:

    http://www.breastcancerwarrior.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=109:foods-to-avoid-during-chemo&catid=38:food-a-cancer&Itemid=76

     Titan - I see you are triple negative. Just wondering if you don't mind my asking...did you do chemo?  You are staged and graded the same as me.

    Michelle

  • ruthbru
    ruthbru Member Posts: 57,235
    edited August 2010

    Don't read too much of the scary food stuff, or the 'only eat bland food' stuff either (I ate jalapeno peppers like a mad woman).....I sure wouldn't worry too much about peeling/scrubbing etc. I think the risk of infection is not all that great (especially from a melon!).  I taught school all during chemo; ate what I felt like eating, washed my hands like crazy and stayed healthy throughout. I would be more concerned about the different chemos interactions (such as you mentioned with the taxols), but not that worried about the food aspect of it.

  • CEBsMom
    CEBsMom Member Posts: 28
    edited August 2010

    I'm chiming in here for a couple of reasons--

    1.  Currently stradling the fence between TN vs ER+ (TN came back on my Oncotype and ER+ was on the initial path report of bipsy). Very scary to go from a very treatable BC to one that is not.  Going to MD Anderson in Houston for 2nd on Aug 16th.  My local onc is very supportive.  Right now i am on TC X 6 and half way thru as of yesterday!!

    2.  As far as food/fruit that really applies primarily when your immune system is compromised, so load up on them (within your Diabetic Diet) while labs are up.  Get the results of your blood work when you go in. As you would any other time, wash you fruits and veggies very well. Would steer clear of fruits that can't clean surface well -- such as strawberries. 

    3.  If you are well controlled DB, then you are ahead of the game--chemo is havoc for non-diabetics--you will just have to pay close attention to the blood sugars--your endo will obviously help.

    4.  The neuropathy -- I believe it is transient for most and goes away after chemo.  Ask your docs about glutamine.  I started it, but will be able to tell more w/ this round of chemo under my belt.

    BEST WISHES ON THIS PART OF YOUR JOURNEY--WHAT YOU ARE GOING THRU IS PROBABLY THE 2ND TOUGHEST THING, so far for me anyway.  THE TOUGHEST WAS WAITING ON THE TESTS!    FIND PEACE IN YOUR PRAYERS!!!

    YOU ARE IN MINE {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}

  • Titan
    Titan Member Posts: 2,956
    edited August 2010

    Yes Michelle..I did chemo...4 AC and 4 Taxol Dose Dense.

    And I didn't worry too much about infections or any of that during chemo..I worked, went to a million (it seemed) graduation partys, track meets, casinos, swimming, hot tubs  and ate what tasted good...I wouldn't get too freaked out about that stuff but do what puts your mind at ease.

  • chalex
    chalex Member Posts: 131
    edited August 2010

    Hi,

    It states on my path. report that I was "weakly positive" for having an estrogen positive tumour. It was 5-10 percent positive for estrogen. Does anyone have info on being  "weakly positive" for ER tumour and is it even worth taking tamox. I am premenapausal and HER positive too.

    Thanks,

    Chalex

  • squidwitch42
    squidwitch42 Member Posts: 2,228
    edited August 2010

    just to add my two cents...if you are given Neulasta or Neupogen (short acting form of Neulasta) your white blood cell count shouldn't drop you into the neutropenic range.  I would follow standard precautions, such as not being around people who are sick, excellent hand washing, cooking your food throughly.  Your counts will drop and come back in a "pattern" which is actually how they space out your chemo.

    Of course, all guidance should ultimately come from your Onc and Nurses, but hoping to alleviate some fears.

    The steroids are not in large doses, and are for 3-5 days.  Yes, you will need to be mindful of your Blood sugars, and I think the Endocrinologist is a wonderful part of your team if needed.

    The neuropathy can resolve, and mine has started to get better a few months out of chemo.  The L glutamine is one way to go, I was started on Neurontin before chemo, and I am still taking it at night.  Made a huge difference!

    so I have not added too much that hasn't already been said, but I do think you should be able to manage your diabetes during chemo and stay protected from infection through the monitoring by your Onc, and Neulasta (this was protocol at my site.)

    Best wishes!!  Keep up the good research, questions and tailor it to your treatment.  You will do right by yourself :)

  • laynetx
    laynetx Member Posts: 11
    edited August 2010

    Hi LuvR!

    Just happened to check your post - couldn't tell it related to diabetes. Anyway, I am type 2, well-controlled, with other pre-existing conditions too (fibromyalgia and carpel tunnel complications in both arms), so neuropathy was a big issue for me (not to mention other possible long-term effects, like heart problems, etc). Two oncologists recommended cytoxin/taxotere, without adriamycin, because of the added risk. (I am 61, by the way). Wish I'd thought of adding the Endo to my team - I would have felt a lot more at ease starting chemo; I'm already halfway through it (had 2nd session 8/17). I still feel kind of railroaded (standard of care, my foot!), even with the second opinion!

    The good news is I'm tolerating the chemo pretty well. Not too much nausea, no vomiting, but - surprise! - constipation (serious!) at abt day 5/6. Extra pain for a few days (after the Neulasta shot on day 2, not a coincidence, I'm finding out). Blood sugar seems to be okay as long as I remember to eat right. 'Course, nothing tastes quite like it should but it could be a lot worse, I hear. AND 5 weeks after starting, I still have most of my hair! All in all, things could be worse!

    I think it's smart to have your Onc work with the Endo; better to be safe than sorry. I do have a really good internist as my pcp; even checked with him on the supplements I'm taking during treatment. My Onc wasn't open to THAT discussion.

    He wasn't real open to the possibility of me skipping the rads, either, when I mentioned it, but that's another discussion. (I'm doing research...)

    FYI, 3 supplements I think are very important during treatment, esp. for diabetics, are probiotics (acidopholis, etc) for the digestive system, L-glutamine and alpha lipoic acid. Oh, and vit D3 is a must for all bc patients! These are good for us anytime but will also help ease some of the side effects from chemo. Check with your doctor to be sure.

    I wish you the best! My tnbc was IDC, 1.7 cm, stage 1, grade 3, node neg - SO THANKFUL I have a pcp who LISTENED to me when I complained of the pain! Don't be afraid to ask questions and make sure you get the answers you need. It sounds like you're on the right track! God bless!

  • MsBliss
    MsBliss Member Posts: 536
    edited August 2010

    I am triple negative with a ki67 of 90%, dx in March 09.  I had a lumpectomy and re excision for some high grade DCIS in the margin.  Grade 3, stage 1, no nodes or lymphvascular invasion.  I had absolutely no estrogen positivity. 

    Because I had secondary health problems I could not do chemo.  Other health issues delayed my rads, so I did not do rads either.  I am only 17 months out from my second surgery, but so far I am having good exams and tests. 

    I didn't do nothing.  I made life style changes and went on a supplement protocol, along with some other interventions.  I have slacked off in the past few months but for the most part am still trying to stay with good habits.  Except for the coffee thing and my love of the occasional pizza, I am trying to eat as cleanly as possible!

  • LRM216
    LRM216 Member Posts: 2,115
    edited August 2010

    I believe they do not want you to eat anything you can't peel (veggies/fruits) only if you develop neutropenia, which I did after each of my A/C treatments.  Otherwise, I was allowed to eat them as long as my values didn't go neutropenic.  I do think the suggestion to see an endocrinologist as well is very wise.  Best of luck to you,

    Linda

  • 2z54
    2z54 Member Posts: 261
    edited August 2010

    Hi LuvRVing,

    Just thought my story might help:  I had 2 bc's; 3cm+ TN, Ki67=97% in left breast, <1cm ER+ in right breast. Before bmx, I had 8 rounds of dose dense AC/T.  Onc wanted me to go on AI, but because of prior experience with Lupron when I was in my 30s to treat endometriosis, I knew how quickly those drugs could make me feel like an 80 year old woman; so I refused.  I promised to lose considerable excess weight and start exercising. (I was 55, 5"2 and about 165lb.).

    Well, at the beginning of the year I started diet. Then began seeing a Naturopathic doc who, after series of blood tests, declared that I was indeed diabetic and low thyroid.  He put me on natural thyroid hormones, iodine, Vit D (of course!), followed by a 30 day cleansing juice fast. I felt terrific within 3 days! More energy than I'd had in years.  I continued on a very high-vegatable, reduced meat diet and lost total of about 25 lbs so far. I'm fairly certain that whatever blood sugar problem I had was controlled by diet changes.

    I was intriqued by this thread because I did get neuropathy from the T chemo.  I have it to this day, almost 2 years later.  It's not terrible, and I don't think it's constant (at least I don't constantly pay attention to it). But, these posts have born out for me that I was indeed diabetic, or at least pre-diabetic BEFORE my chemo, and went through chemo without knowing.  I ate everything I felt like, and did not lose taste or appetitite at all with chemo.  (I should add at this point, that Naturopath/alternative doctor's numbers, or thresholds, for diagnosis of dis-ease/illness are often much lower than regular doctor's readings of our bloodwork, which is why I was able to sail under the radar for diabetes and thyroid).

    Anyway, perhaps my case does bear out that there is a link between diabetes and neuropathy when given taxols for chemo; and I thank you women for pointing that out to me. BUT, because my heart was strong enough to bear the adriamycin, I would not have changed my chemo treatment at all; we threw the strongest regimine for TN chemo at the time, at it.  I think my lingering neuropathy is a small price to pay for the knowledge that I have done, and now through diet changes, weight loss, etc. am doing, all I can to prevent recurrance.

    BC is a nasty, scary, and tricky disease.  TN makes it even scarier/trickier.  I admire your questions and your fore-thought to put an endocrinologist on your team.  But I hope that after your elected chemo is done (and I DO expect that you will opt for some type of chemo) that you may add an alternative health doctor to your team.  I wish I had done that before all my treatment started, but I was too freaked out with my diagnosis to even think about it. Besides, I am happy to have thrown all the conventional medicine I needed at it.  I'm just taking the time now to make the changes in my diet and overall health that made me vulnerable in the first place. 

    Best of luck to you on this terrible journey!  Please let us know what you decide and how it's going!

    Sue

  • LuvRVing
    LuvRVing Member Posts: 4,516
    edited September 2010

    Sue,

     After getting a second opinion and not receiving any reassurance about the effects of chemo on a diabetic, I have opted to pass on chemo.  I have gone back to my original oncologist, I am taking Femara because I am "weakly" positive, and he feels that "positive is positive".  I seem to be tolerating Femara with few SEs, so far.  I am having a bone density scan tomorrow.  I am comfortable with my decision.  I am also hoping that the 2000 mg of Metformin that I take every day to control my insulin resistance is working to prevent a recurrence (there are clinical trials underway at the moment in Canada).  Time will tell.

    Michelle

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