bio-identical hormones
Comments
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I was using Progesterone Cream made from a Compounding Pharmacy for a few years in the attempt to balance my estrogen dominance, until my breast cancer diagnosis. Never took birth control pills or HRT. The attempt to balance my hormones based on what Suzanne Somers wrote about, didn't work for me. My cancer pathology turned out to be highly triple positive.
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Mountains1day,
Sorry to hear the progesterone didn't prevent your breast cancer.
Have you gone over to the Stage IV group and told them their years of hormone blocking didn't work?
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lucy88,
Sorry but not everyone has benefited by taking bio-identicals, there's much controversy and it may be harmful. I bought in to it, read all Dr. Lee's/SS's books. It makes sense for the purpose of balancing hormones naturally but not for breast cancer prevention. I just happened to get breast cancer anyway. How do I know if using the Progesterone Cream all those years didn't actually cause my breast cancer? Don't you think that people need to consider other's experiences good and bad (as well as good information) when making a decision in using them? When breast cancer enters the picture, it's a very complex different ball game and we must be careful, that's all I'm saying. Perhaps a congratulations would be welcomed on the Stage IV group for the added overall survival hormonal therapy provided them.
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I wish they would make up their minds. First wine is good in moderation and now even one glass ups the chance of bc. Then there is a new study I will list here that makes the case for natural hormones.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090519134715.htm
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Mountains1day, you need to do the research on how bioidenticals have contributed to less breast cancer.
You think the people on this group are chit-chatting at the hairdresser? There are actual studies. You are entitled to your opinion but not your own facts or study results.
And as for the stage IV people, we've gone over this a dozen times. There is proven no survival advantage for Arimidex as an adjuvant. So I just feel sorry that they didn't get this information before spending their last years deprived of hormones.
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Hello Merilee!
Congratulations on having an educated onc. I don't know about questions but from experience a lot of us have learned not to have the progesterone and estriol made up in the same tube. You may want to change one or the other and if you do you're stuck with a fixed dose for both. Stephanie on the Iodine Group talked about having to throw out a combination tube because it diddn't have the right amount of progesterone.
Also, don't get talked into taking any hormones by mouth. I'm not as experienced as the others here but I thought I'd share those tips. Good luck.
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Molyann, can you point me to the evidence for this as I'm on arimidex and don't want to take it for years if I don't need to?
I'm not getting any adverse effects other than hot flushes which I was already getting from menopause but I do hate taking medications.
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Molyann,
Please share the actual studies and research on how bio-identicals contribute to less breast cancer.
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Sheila-- ask your oncologist for the literature and to point you to: disease free survival (survival from breast cancer) and then absolute survival (survival from all causes). Researchers have not demonstrated that you will live longer on Arimidex. Its impact on heart, bones, joints and brain may contribute to an earlier demise. The research is still ongoing.
Mountains--The most complete review of the many studies is "Could Transdermal estradiol and progesterone be safer? A Review" by Hermite et al. You will probably need to get it from the library or purchase it to read the full text.
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Mollyann, are you sure you're citing the proper publication? The one you mentioned has to do with comparing methods of hormone administration, not comparing breast cancer risk for hormone users versus non-users.
Mountains1day - the link to the abstract of that publication can be found here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18775609
For anyone genuinely interested in BHRT facts, here's a very informational discussion about some of the misconceptions and misinformation about bio-identical hormones. http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/705130
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Luna, you wrote: "I suppose I don't really need a new oncologist unless I get cancer again since my Internist does more cancer marker bloodtests than my onco and he understands the importance of D3 which my onco has no clue about."
I could have written your entire post, using the very same words you used. I, too, had an oncologist who put me on AGGRESSIVE chemotherapy, totally ignoring my Onco-Dx of 9% (higher than you, but still a very low recurrence rate). She did not go over that test result with me and actually kept it HIDDEN from me. I found out after seeking a second opinion from another oncologist. Of course, I immediately fired her, but she had already had time to put me through 5 out of 6 chemo infusions, and I know I will have to spend the rest of my life dealing with the damage that she did.
I recently went for a check-up at the Cancer Treatment Center of America in Philadelphia and was very impressed with the quality of care in that facility, as well as with the fact that it is totally integrative (they have Naturopathic Doctors, Homeopaths, etc...). HOWEVER.... they also have outstanding oncologists. And those outstanding oncologists have the usual arsenal of toxic tests involving X-rays, etc... And because they have them, they will use them, of course.
Like you, I have come to the conclusion that, in the current state of the science of Oncology, one should only have an oncologist when LIFE EXTENSION is an issue (i.e: in the presence of a spreading cancer). Even so, I believe that one would maximize one's chances at getting cured or prolonging life by choosing a naturopathic oncologist, as opposed to a conventional one (one-size-fits-all, as you put it)....we know from Anondenet, that there is one in Seattle and probably several more nationwide by now: I think that demand for a shift in oncology is growing by leaps and bonds.
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That's encouraging to hear Yazmin about the Naturopathic Oncologists, but now if only they would take insurance. Anybody know if there are any on Long Island? Or even Naturopathic Gyns?
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Rose:
Have you seen this link from anondenet? http://www.seattlecancerwellness.com/naturopathic_oncologists.html
I am pretty sure that if you contacted Dr. Gignac, he would be able to tell you more about other naturopathic oncologists in the country.....
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I think the title naturopathic_oncologist may mislead some people into thinking that these people are MDs. They are not. I find the use of the term "board certified" from the link above misleading as well since most people recognize this as a term applied to MDs.
Anybody know if Dr. Block (Evanston) is into bio-identicals?
I am not against bio-identicals. They may make a lot of sense for women who have never had BC, or have been diagnosed with HR- breast cancer. I have not seen evidence for or against for women who have had HR+ BC. But based on the fact that blocking natural estrogen with AIs reduces recurrence risk for HR+ cancer, I am vary wary of estrogen supplementation.
Personally, I really hate being in chemo-induced menopause. I will not switch from tamox to an AI because I don't want to become even more estrogen deprived than I already am. I may consider adding some progesterone after I'm done with tamox. I wish I could find some well conducted studies on the effect of progesterone on the long-term out comes on women who have had HR+ breast cancer. Does anyone know of any?
Thanks.
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Orange1, Most MDs are not qualified to practice naturopathic medicine. I don't know why you are thinking a naturopathic physician is an MD. Just because you assume this, don't assume the rest of us do. There is a lot of specialized training involved and certification which they keep up with CME.
If you have followed the Natural Girls thread you will see how often the patients ran acoss MDs that were clueless about bioidenticals by their own admission. And the patients had to seeked out a trained professional Naturopath.
To answer your question, there are many surprising long term studies on breast cancer patients taking HRT but most mix natural progesterone and progestins and estrogens in the statistics.
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Orange1, thank you for your clarification about how some people can be misled into thinking naturopaths and MD's are one of the same. Though they are not the same, I can see a lot of information out there can give the wrong impression and IMO, that is dangerous.
How risky is it for one who is diagnosed w/estrogen positive breast cancer who chooses to add estrogen whether it be synthetic or bio? The point is to know your risks based on your own criteria. I wish we had well conducted studies on the effect of progesterone on LTO HR+ BC's as well! Until we do, I remain not to use.
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Yes, it would be dangerous to suggest most MDs are qualified to give information about hormones.
And studies have been done.
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I know that some "Naturalpaths" only have a BA. Scary.
Mollyann- I read this article and am wondering if I am understanding it correctly. Does it say for premenopausal woman that only one's own estrogen is safe? And is it saying that postmenopausal women who use HRT have a better survival rate?
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Thanks for the link Mollyann. I will look the ongoing studies he mentions. They may be complete by now.
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Here is a summary of one of the studies (Habit Study). Its from Dr. Love's website. I will lookup the Lancet article tomorrow at work. Its too bad they stopped the study so early. Sometimes when they stop trials early the results are not reliable.HRT Trial Stopped in Women with Breast Cancer
February 3, 2004
A Swedish study designed to assess the effect of hormone replacement therapy (HRT) in women who have had breast cancer has been stopped early after preliminary results found an "unacceptably high" risk of breast cancer recurrence in the women who used HRT. The results were published online in the Lancet on February 2, 2004.
The question of whether women who have had breast cancer should take HRT to help control menopausal symptoms has been controversial for many years. Small observational studies (studies that looked at women who had breast cancer who had taken HRT) found the risk of breast cancer to be low. But observational findings must always be tested, which is why researchers designed randomized trials to look at the impact of HRT in women who have had breast cancer.
The study published in the Lancet was called HABITS (hormonal replacement therapy after breast cancer—is it safe?). The trial began recruiting women in 1997 to determine whether a two-year treatment of HRT for menopausal symptoms was safe for women who had had breast cancer. All of the women in the study had completed chemotherapy and radiation treatment for up to Stage II breast cancer, although some were still taking tamoxifen.
The study followed 345 women; 174 were randomized to HRT while the other 171 did not receive HRT. After following the women for about two years, 26 women in the HRT group had a new breast cancer occurrence compared with 7 in the non-HRT group.
In the HRT group, 11 women experienced a local recurrence, 5 developed cancer in the opposite breast, and 10 were diagnosed with distant metastases. All but five of the women had their new diagnosis occur while they were taking HRT. In the non-HRT group, two had a local recurrence, one developed cancer in the opposite breast, and five were diagnosed with distant metastases.
Five women in the HRT group died (three due to breast cancer) and four died in the non-HRT group (all due to breast cancer).In an accompanying commentary, Rowan T. Chlebowski, MD, chief of the Division of Medical Oncology and Hematology at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, and Nananda Col, MD, an assistant professor of medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital, note that "although the HABITS trial may not be the definitive word on the use of hormone therapy in breast cancer, it will probably be the last word when considered in context of our evolving understanding of the effects of hormone therapy on chronic disease in women." -
This is from one of the references that Dr Creasman sited in the article from Mollyann's link
From Annals of Internal Medicine, 1997
http://annals.highwire.org/content/129/7/551.full
This is a modeling study, not results of an actual clinical study
Decision Analysis Predicted Who Should Receive Hormone Replacement TherapyCol NF, Eckman MH, Karas RH, et al. Patient-specific decisions about hormone replacement therapy in postmenopausal women. JAMA. 1997; 277:1140-7.In the meantime, how can clinicians help a particular woman decide whether to take hormone replacement therapy? Population data are convincing: Breast cancer kills 43 000 women annually, but coronary artery disease claims 233 000 women and hip fractures kill another 65 000. A woman facing the decision may be at higher or lower risk for particular diseases or may have specific fears about developing cancer. Moreover, no data from randomized, controlled trials are currently available to aid in decision making.Therefore, using a mathematical model, Col and colleagues undertook a decision analysis to examine the effect of hormone replacement therapy on life expectancy in postmenopausal women with different risk profiles for heart disease, breast cancer, and hip fracture. They used published regression models to estimate lifetime risks for coronary heart disease, breast cancer, hip fracture, and endometrial cancer. The effect of hormone replacement therapy on life expectancy was estimated for women with various risks for coronary heart disease, osteoporosis, and breast cancer.According to this model, hormone replacement therapy should increase life expectancy for almost all postmenopausal women. The greatest gain, 41 months of extra life, was seen in the women who had the highest risk for coronary heart disease but the lowest risk for breast cancer. The only women who did not derive improved life expectancy from hormone replacement therapy were those who were at low risk for coronary heart disease and high risk for breast cancer.In decision analyses, sensitivity analysis is done to examine the effect of uncertainty or disagreement about the estimates used in the model. In performing this sensitivity analysis, the researchers took into account the fact that hormone replacement therapy users who develop breast cancer tend to have less aggressive cancer. This model suggests that all women would live longer if they took hormone replacement therapy. Although this study used hypothetical patients, it may serve as a guide to advising actual women by sustaining the belief that hormone replacement therapy extends the lives of postmenopausal women who do not already have breast cancer. However, living longer may not be the only goal for women who use hormone replacement therapy. Other factors, such as quality of life, must also be considered.I'll find some more of the references and post them tomorrow. -
Hello, Orange1, the studies seem to favor BC pts taking HRT.
Hormone Replacement Therapy After a Diagnosis of Breast Cancer in Relation to Recurrence and Mortality http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/93/10/754
Background: Hormone replacement therapy (HRT) is typically avoidedfor women with a history of breast cancer because of concernsthat estrogen will stimulate recurrence. In this study, we soughtto evaluate the impact of HRT on recurrence and mortality aftera diagnosis of breast cancer. Methods: Data were assembled from2755 women aged 35-74 years who were diagnosed with incidentinvasive breast cancer while they were enrolled in a large healthmaintenance organization from 1977 through 1994. Pharmacy dataidentified 174 users of HRT after diagnosis. Each HRT user wasmatched to four randomly selected nonusers of HRT with similarage, disease stage, and year of diagnosis. Women in the analysiswere recurrence free at HRT initiation or the equivalent timesince diagnosis. Rates of recurrence and death through 1996were calculated. Adjusted relative risks were estimated by useof the Cox regression model. All statistical tests were two-sided.Results: The rate of breast cancer recurrence was 17 per 1000person-years in women who used HRT after diagnosis and 30 per1000 person-years in nonusers (adjusted relative risk for userscompared with nonusers = 0.50; 95% confidence interval [CI]= 0.30 to 0.85). Breast cancer mortality rates were five per1000 person-years in HRT users and 15 per 1000 person-yearsin nonusers (adjusted relative risk = 0.34; 95% CI = 0.13 to0.91). Total mortality rates were 16 per 1000 person-years inHRT users and 30 per 1000 person-years in nonusers (adjustedrelative risk = 0.48; 95% CI = 0.29 to 0.78). The relativelylow rates of recurrence and death were observed in women whoused any type of HRT (oral only = 41% of HRT users; vaginalonly = 43%; both oral and vaginal = 16%). No trend toward lowerrelative risks was observed with increased dose.
++++Conclusion:We observed lower risks of recurrence and mortality in womenwho used HRT after breast cancer diagnosis than in women whodid not. Although residual confounding may exist, the resultssuggest that HRT after breast cancer has no adverse impact onrecurrence and mortality.
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Mollyann, My oncologists showed me the Adjuvant Online data that showed a considerable advantage for me in using Arimidex. I had already accessed it at home so I wouldn't be overwhelmed at the appointment. There's no way I would take it otherwise. I'm pretty wary of AO data in regard to chemotherapy but with the SERMs and AI's it seems more straight forward as the studies were done comparing those taking them with those not taking them.
I may be changed to tamox soon as I have osteoporosis in the hips. I'm not too fond of that idea either but it beats the bisphosphonates. I wouldn't dare try BHRT as the literature is too confusing and my 10 year odds are not good as it is. I just wish this wasn't all such a maze. I respact everyone's choices and am very much on the fence with most issues which makes it hard to know what to do.
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Sheila-- I'm sure you are doing the right thing for you. You must have peace of mind as the first thing. You're right--having cancer is confusing. People who haven't had cancer have no idea. Blessings, Molly
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bumping forward
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Hi Miss Bliss,
I have missed you! How are you doing? I have a wonderful meditation cd that I posted a few days ago for healing the body and even though you are done with your surgery I think all women could benefit from this amazing cd set! Healing Fast from Surgery by Peggy Huddleston.
Thank you for all of your posts--I look forward always to your input and also to Nan's input. We have to be proactive in our care and do what feels right to us. I had a Dr. at City of Hope who said I would DIE if I didn't cut off my breast, radiate the hell out of it and then cut a muscle from my back a year or so later to make a breast out of it! I listened to my gut and all of my other dr's and got a second opinion. I didn't tell them anything just that I wanted their input. Guess what? I didn't need radiation, I could do immediate reconstruction, I did have to do chemo in order to even have surgery, however, I didn't get butchered, we cleared the margins, and if my instincts are right ( and my temporary pathology report is correct), my permanent pathology report will put me in the clear with no lymph node involvement and no cancerous cells found!
Nan:
You know that I will be back on the bioidenticals as soon as I recover from surgery and I get my body somewhat back to "normal". For those who don't know me, I go to Dr. Galitzer from the Suzanne Sommers book, and he is a lifesaver, he just got to me 3 years too late to save me from breast cancer. Get the tests you need ladies, demand better care from your dr's and if they don't know anything about bioidenticals, find a dr who does. It's all about quality of life and protecting your body from a future recurrence!
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MBJ --
You go to Dr. Galitzer? Oh, I'm so envious. I wish I lived in the LA area and could go to him. He has been using all the progressive treatments for YEARS. Coincidentally, I met his wife once. She looks terrificly healthy and radiant. They practice what they preach.
Please keep reporting the details of what you're doing. For those of us who aren't near LA or Dr. G, it would be a great learning experience.
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Dear anondenet,
When I first met MBJ, she told me she had been sitting in Dr. Gallitzer's office and was reading Suzanne Somer's book "Knockout", and at that time it had not even been released. Oh to live in CA, and be able to afford to go to these doctors. Another member here goes to Dr. Uzzi Reiss. We who live on the east coast have to be content to see the new anti-aging/bio-identical doctors, who are really not that knowledgeable, and for the most part won't agree to treat a woman who has been dx with BC. How the hell do they think the BC started? UNBALANCED HORMONES!! HORMONES GONE CRAZY!!
Also...look at MBJ's stats...TNBC, the same as my daughter, and yet my daughter knows without a doubt that it is all about the hormones. However, there are only a few TNBC women who will even consider BHRT. IMO, I believe that girls in their teens need to have hormonal testing. We had a young girl, 17 years old here is Altoona who was dx with ovarian cancer a few years ago.
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Ladies, if your doing your research BEFORE using bioidenticals, it helps to know it may be of benefit to some but NOT to others, as many studies that many ladies on this thread have provided links to that prove this. It is important to know your risks and make a decision for yourself that you can live with. I demanded better and jumped on the bio identical band wagon a few years ago, found an "amazing" doctor who was very knowledgeable about them, got all the tests and believed my quality of life would be greatly impacted, and it was until the breast cancer turned up, that is.
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Oh yea, did I mention how well my hormones were balanced before the BC diagnosis? Very well indeed, all the tests proved. When I read "How the hell do they think the BC started?" WOW!
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