MUST READ!! Test for CIRCULATING CANCER CELLS

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  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited March 2010

    I don't think that there has been a negative reaction to Sue's posting about this test. In fact I think the post has generated a lot of interesting discussion.  Certainly there has been some critical thinking and questioning about the potential relevance of this test, particularly for those who have DCIS, but I don't see a problem with that.  In fact, I think that's a good thing; it's what we should be doing, isn't it?  There are new discoveries all the time, new research about BC is released every day, and both we as patients, and our doctors, need to apply critical thinking to determine which are relevant and meaningful to us.  I agree with hhfheidi.  Once I got into reading about breast cancer treatments and advancements, it didn't take me long to realize that I can't get excited over every new research finding/tool/advance without careful considerations of its merits.  There are just too many of them and upon examination, it turns out that most aren't relevant to me as a BC patient/survivor.  In most threads that I read about new research, new tests and new discoveries, there always is a lot of questioning and challenging and wondering about the relevance, applicability, etc.; I don't see any difference in the reaction here.

    Where I do think there has been a negative reaction has been to the insistence that we all get this test.  Considering what's come up in the rest of the discussion, I think that criticism is fair. It's not known if this test has any relevance for those with DCIS, the availability of this test is not clear (other than that it can be done in Europe and some locations in the U.S.) and ultimately the decision on which tests each of us needs and wants should be left with us as individuals, and our doctors. 

    Sue, as I said in my earlier posts, I do find this test to be interesting and I appreciate the information.   I hope that you and others are not discouraged from posting about new findings.

  • Suembala
    Suembala Member Posts: 18
    edited March 2010

    Is this like the Mammaprint Prognostic test that predicts the chance of 5-10 year distant reoccurrence?  I read something about this on Dr. Susan Love's website, although from what I recall this test was for stage 1-2 BC. I wish technology would hurry up. A vaccine would be nice. 

  • ladyod
    ladyod Member Posts: 152
    edited March 2010

    I did not once say the word negative.  I also agreed it is good to get pros and cons about the test.  And  I ended it saying it is up to the individual to make the decision to pursuit treatment.  I am 7 weeks out and looking for a place to discuss and support my fellow sisters.  I am not trying to start a huge debate or argue with anyone....I do not have the energy to spend on that.  But I do think that my opinion -- or the opinion of any person posting or responding -- is just as important as anyone elses.  When you are fresh out of a diagnosis, I think you tend to be a little more passionate, a little more scared, and looking for as much information as possible.  Then, it is up to the readers to decide if it is valuable information or not.  LadyOD
    Diagnosis: 12/24/2009, DCIS, Stage 0, Grade 3, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR+

  • olivia218
    olivia218 Member Posts: 257
    edited March 2010

    Interesting information and testing options -  I am not a physician and know everyone's bodies are different. I always try to keep in mind a Dr's office is still called a practice -- leaving me with the complete understanding our bodies are all unique and each diagnosis has different implications for each of us.  

    Olivia 

  • Jenna1961
    Jenna1961 Member Posts: 71
    edited March 2010
    Not siding with "pro" or "contra" side of this ctc debate, I would like to say that we should not look for relevant medical information on such a web site that has a main banner on it's home page flashing "OVERSTOCK SALE SAVE 60% SHOP NOW" or "SKIN CARE SALE" etc.

    The Life Extension web site is a typical commercial web site, whose purpose is to bombard you with it's products' commercials. To stir the emotions a little bit, it uses good old media tactics, such as sensationalism  ("The article you are about to read is earth-shattering"...) or conspiracy theories (" ...book that uncovers cancer treatments that the government has tried to brutally suppress.") etc. How about this: "Life Extension Foundation is dedicated to finding new scientific methods for eradicating old age."  Can you take this seriously?
     
    Even the potentially useful information is interweaved with commercials. For example, in the disturbing article "Preventing Surgery-Induced Cancer Metastasis" which suggests we should take the matter in our own hands, " ... outlines practical steps patients can take before surgery to prevent surgery-induced cancer recurrence and metastasis ... at least five days prior to surgery, to ingest at least 14 grams of modified citrus pectin and 800 mg of cimetidine daily... At least five days prior to surgery, it would appear logical to institute a natural killer (NK) cell-enhancing program involving nutrients like PSK, lactoferrin, glutamine, and others. Another immune boosting drug to consider in the perioperative setting may be interleukin-2....". It goes on and on.
    Of course, your Surgery-Induced Metastasis prevention is just a click (and your Visa) away.
  • Kitchenwitch
    Kitchenwitch Member Posts: 374
    edited March 2010

    I'm with Jenna. The Life Extension website is heavily loaded with ads for vitamins and other products and sites. It doesn't seem like a good source for unbiased medical information. I'm well aware of problems within the traditional medical establishment, but there's really no other game in town. Mentions of Suzanne Somers and using vitamins to prevent cancer recurrence always raise my suspicions that someone is trying to sell me something.  

  • olivia218
    olivia218 Member Posts: 257
    edited March 2010

    Kitchenwitch and Jenna1961 -

    I agree with both of you!  I do also believe that if you believe it helps you and you have learned it wil not cause any physical harm - then whatever you need! I think this journey brings out the weirdest feelings and emotions in each of us.  I have a friend who just does everything her Dr tells her and now is wondering why she is having other health issues.  She and I were talking and I asked her if anything she is taking lists her symptoms as potential side effects?  She said, I had not thought of that.  I just suggested maybe asking her Dr at her next appt. She did and felt so much calmer.  I think she is so overwhelmed right now that all she can do is just follow the Dr directions.  I feel bad for her and wish I could help. She is another BC survivor and is a two years ahead of me, so we talk a lot.

    Olivia 

  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited March 2010

    sweaty -

    I'm not calling anyone a liar.  I'm just telling you what I have read about the way carcinoma behaves on a cellular level.  They told me that my microcalcs were probably a fibroadenoma, btw, but they weren't.  I'm going to do my best to find a citation.  I'm completely unsure how an MRI would show abnormalities on a cellular basis alone, but then I am not in the medical profession.

  • ladyod
    ladyod Member Posts: 152
    edited March 2010
    Calcifications are present in DCIS 90% of the time.  10% the are not.  "- Ninety percent of women with mammographically detected DCIS have occult microcalcifications [40,41]. Atypical findings include a mass, prominent ducts, or other soft tissue changes [42]. Although some morphologic microcalcification patterns are virtually diagnostic of DCIS (eg, pleomorphic clusters of microcalcifications with linear or segmental arrangements reflecting their presence in ducts), most patients have microcalcifications of indeterminate morphology. "  Taken from UptoDate website, a site for physicians and  patients.
  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited March 2010

    Okay, I've done some research of my own.  Apparently MRIs can spot microscopic cancerous tumors, which is what I suspected.  It does not depend on microcalcifications for diagnosis the way mammograms do.

    This is an outstanding resource on the morphology of DCIS.  I tried to make a tiny URL out of this and failed, so I hope you can accesss this. Click "Preview Book" to read the information I'm citing.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=3rDQcbEMtVEC&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=morphology+of+DCIS&source=bl&ots=V-sTIaDkxm&sig=UHzClKxeIpaM-LR-9baE1hSVd10&hl=en&ei=kvenS9ONA4e0tgeX3e3DDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=morphology%20of%20DCIS&f=false

    This is a really complex subject and our discussions on this board are extremely generalized.  According to this article,microcalcifications form in different ways when there is cancer present depending on the type of cancer.  Punctate calcifications are caused by cancerous cell secretions into the duct that eventually calcify.  Granular calcifications are caused by necrotic debris undergoing calcification.  Not all DCIS is necrotic, needless to say.  The article does indicate that LOW GRADE DCIS does not consistently produce microcalcs.  Also, Paget's Disease does not result in microcalcs. 

  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited March 2010

    sweatyspice -

    I apologize if I offended you - I didn't mean to directly contradict you or attack you.  I made the mistake of "thinking out loud" while I posted and basically had just been post-skimming.  Shouldn't have said that and I'll also own up to being wrong.  I just finished reading all the posts in this thread more carefully, and this is great information because I had grade 3 comedo necrosis almost 10 years ago now. 

    I admit that I just need to "say no" to expounding on topics I haven't read about in years.  I comparmentalized my DCIS experience about 5 years ago and just stopped reading about it altogether.

    Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't get a breast MRI since I've never had one.  I did get that breast radiated.  What do you ladies think?  I get a diagnostic mammo once a year.

  • sweatyspice
    sweatyspice Member Posts: 922
    edited March 2010

    No worries.

    I'm thinking about whether I want to get screening MRIs going forward, it's complicated b/c I don't think the hospital and BS I'm with now are very pro-MRI.  I haven't really made a decision yet about whether I want to insist on it to the point of changing Drs and hospitals again...I'll think it through in a few more months, after rads, etc.  There's only so much I can emotionally deal with at once.

  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited March 2010

    Oh, yes, sweatyspice - now I am noticing that you were diagnosed less than a year ago.  Take heart - the odds are strongly in your favor and eventually the emotional duress dissipates. It does take a few years, though.  I've been just fine emotionally for about six years now, but I remember well the hell of the first couple of years.

  • sweatyspice
    sweatyspice Member Posts: 922
    edited March 2010

    I'm not so sure about the odds being strongly in my favor.  I definitely have residual LCIS plus either ADH or ALH (in both breasts), I'm not sure which and I'm too lazy to read the path report again.  I'm thinking more along the lines of "ticking time bomb."

  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited March 2010

    I have the same thing, sweaty, and I know that feeling well.  I have been able to accept the fact that I may face this again and carry on with my life without the emotional agony I experienced in 2001-2005.  Give it a few years - it's really hard, but you'll feel better about it in time, I just bet you.  Just wanted to encourage you - that's really why I come to these boards.

  • sweatyspice
    sweatyspice Member Posts: 922
    edited March 2010

    I'm not suffering from emotional agony at the moment.  I was before surgery, because I did not want to do this to myself, but now, what's done is done.  I'm angry and sad about it, but I wouldn't call it agony. 

    And I'm also not agonizing about recurrence.  I accepted that risk when I chose not to have a mastectomy.  Sure, I'll agonize if/when it happens, and I'll freak out every time I have to have a mammogram or MRI or whatever, but I did that before anyway.  I always expected to get breast cancer, so in many ways nothing has changed except my breasts aren't lovely anymore and I'm more educated about the whole thing. 

    My first mammogram (1993) resulted in surgical excision for something that turned out to be benign.  As a result I didn't have a mammogram for 13 years or so, because I just didn't want to deal with this sort of crap unless it was cancer.   At a certain point, I realized I'd probably pushed it far enough and was being stupid, so I started having mammos again 3 years before I was diagnosed. 

    So yes, the anticipation of screening and getting results will be agony (always was), but I don't agonize every day about it.  I've never stood in front of a mammo machine and expected to hear anything besides "you have cancer," so mammo dread is nothing new.

    But I will now monitor things closely and deal with the emotional hell that entails at screening time.

    That said, I haven't done rads or popped my first Tamoxifen pill yet - and those things might bring on a whole new world of agony and grief.  I'll just have to accept it as part of life's great adventure.

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