HELP Monitoring of NED after initial treatments?
I am so CONFUSED!!! I have read from different woman on this site that their ONC's will do regular 3 -4 month scans, tumor markers, etc after initial treatment of chemo/rads for the first year. Let me say I realize that ONC's do thing individually. However, I was wondering if there is a Standard of Protocol??? I also realize that tumor markers are not always a reliable testing tool.
My concern is that during my initial staging I had all scans completed: *With some uncertainties:
-Bone Scan, -I was told of a spot on my 7th (left rib) ***I was told that they could NOT determine if the was cancer related or from a previous scar fracture from a life-time injuiry. ***They went with the benefit of the doubt (it was not cancerous related). *I was told that they were treating me as a Stage 3 A patient. When I asked whether or not in the future they would be able to be sure that is was NOT cancerous, I was told that after chemo treatments if the questionable spot (decreased or increased) it would likely be cancerous related to the bc because a scar form a previous rib fracture would always remain the same and not change in size or disappear.
-Chest X-ray -CLEAR
-Brain MRI -CLEAR***At my request because I was having vison changes and headaches-CLEAR (these symptons did disappear).
-Liver Scan/blood work -CLEAR
-Neck/Abdominal Scan *A spot showed up on my S1 that had NOT shown up on the bone scan
-MRI ***was done to have a closer look at the spot on my S1*They determined that this spot was a bone island. I have had pain in that spot off and on for a few years prior to my diagnosis of breast cancer.
My concerns:
During my first consultation (Nov 11/09) with my ONC just before my treatments began he did a brief physical. He asked me about and felt my rib area on my left side (asked whether I had pain). I was surprised because I had not pain (I was told then about the spot that showed up on the bone scan). By about Dec 15 I began to have a dull aching pain under my left breast (unaffected breast) near about the questionable area. Since then it has not really let up. The dull ache is constant. I realize that with 4 AC's, neulasta shots, 2 Taxol, 1 herceptin I am going to have aches and pains. I think I have done a good job at deciphering between which aches/pains I get with each treatment. These pains come and go with each treatment. But the rib section that I have explained (dull pain ache) that has become quite bothersome and is constant. I described this pain/symptom to my ONC's nurse on January 15 but it was not discussed with my ONC when I saw him because he was more concerned with my breathing issues and heaviness feeling in my heart that I was experincing (on my 3 AC). He ordered a chest X-ray and heart scan immediately and sent me to the hospital for tests before my scheduled 4 AC chemo that day.
So yesterday, I brought it up to him knowing that I still have the pain and that my last chemo will be on March 9. I know that I will have a 3-4 week break before starting 7 weeks of rads. My thoughts are lets go back and re-look at that rib (see if there is change to it) and at the same time see if anything else shows up on bones. If haven forbid something changes my thoughts are we could treat it during radiation and or include another treatment plan re: bone mets. I asked him whether we would be doing any 3 months scans as it has been 3-4 months since my last scans. He says that he does not do scans that often. I have read on this site that woman have 3-4 months repeated scans within the first year. This seems fair, otherwise how would one know if they are NED free???(until symptoms arise???) Wouldn't it be better to discover something sooner than later??? I have heard that is doesn't seem to affect survivability should something be found later than earlier. I met a woman yesterday at the cancer centre. She was diagnosed at 40 -June 08 (Stage 3 er/pr+, 10/21 nodes positive) had all scans done at initially staging except for Brain MRI (which seems that they DO NOT DO-at my cancer centre). I have talked to other woman stage 3 who did not have this done at initially staging. Anyway, she complete her chemo+rads in Jan/09 and by May/09 she had severe vision symptoms and bone pain. She was seen immediately and scans showed that she had 9 brain tumors and most of her bone was affected. She had to have a partial hip replacement and was told she had 6 months to live. She has just past her 6 month date. She is on some kind of chemo every 3 weeks and had some rads to her brain. They did not put her on Zometa (she had not even heard of this drug), she was not eligible for gama knife for the brain mets because she had more that 4 tumors and were bigger than the criteria allowed. She said that they did not do any follow-up scans after her initial treatment until she had the pain symptoms in May/09 (at that time things seem to be too late for her).I can'thelp but to wonder since they didnot do a Brain MRI (upon initial Staging) how does one know if the brain mets were not already there? Also, if they had done scans after her treatments were over could they have picked up on the bone mets and developed a new treatment plan??? I realize that one will never know since the scanswere not done. Maybe the mets would not have been there at the time...but who knows????
I discussed my pain in the rib section and told him that I have had it since December 15th which is now been over 2 months. He thoughts and comments to me were:
1) Every little bit of pain, ache, ect. I 'am likely to associate it with b/c -NO DUH!!! But at the same time I wouldn't cry wolf, I would gave it a time frame. I have read on this site about a 2 week window period... He thoughts are that my rib section (dull constant ache) is not likely associated with bc and that it is not uncommon for a rib spot to show up on a scan for many other reasons. He goes on to say that my pain is likely associated with chemo related muscular symptoms/SE's. I explained to him that SE's due to my treatments have come and gone and I have learned to recognize what appears to be "normal" SE', and I reminded him that I have have this constant dull ache pain since Dec 15th. This is not normal for me and the pain has not come and gone.
2) He cautioned me about the concern from exposure to unnecessary radiation is harmful.
3) He explained that Scans have false positives and therefore can put patients in unnecessary anxiety/state and that sometimes you end up chasing things with repeated scans/MRI's to end up showing nothing wrong.
He said that he would definitely not to a repeated scan until at least some time after my chemo (which is March 9) I think that's fair. But I will be asking him for one should the pain still remain after 4 weeks. Could he deny another bone scan??? Especially if I still have symptoms???
I am interested in others experiences??? What is normal follow-up protocols??? How does one know that they are NED Free after initial treatments??? Don't ONC's do assessments??? How does one know that chemo/rads worked???
Frankie
Edited for spelling
Comments
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This is my experience:
i was seen every 3 months for a couple of years after treatment. i had chest/belly scans 1x a year during that time. blood work and tumor markers. starting 3 years out; i was seen 4-5 months...and by 4 years every 6 months. each onc visit i had blood work and tumor markers.
if there are questionable areas....ribs...bones...etc. my oncologist would look at those areas after a period of time passed. once a cancer patient; they do really look for things.and note them...ie...nodule on a lung...it doesn't mean it is necessarily cancer. the thing about cancer is tht it will"change" over a period of time...sometimes you have to wait 6 months to see if it changes...
the only way they can determine if something is for sure cancer is to biopsy it. there are B9 things that show up on scans...scares you but is not cancer.
i think the hardest part for me was not knowing for sure it they got it all. i used to freak out when i had a scan..thinking "maybe they missed something" which...after all these years...i guess they didn't. but i had to get used to living in "uncertain for sure" if i am NED. now, i just go by how i feel.....my energy levels...how my body is doing...blood work and i still have a scan every once and awhile. my onc doesn';t like to do a lot of scans now because of the stuff they use...can cause problems down the line for kidneys. i still see my onc every 6 months because i had a few complications . i know i can talk to her about having a scan if something is bothering me for a period of time. the hard part for people just finishing treatment is your body still may ache and you haven't complelely healed yet.
the most important part of cancer treatment is surgery. surgery takes out the tumor...and the chemo/rads and hormone treatment or herceptin cleans up the rest. try to trust your treatment that it worked.....BUT...it is good to be on top of things and ok to talk with onc about your concerns. time will give you more information on things that may show up. you can always get another opinion if you are not satisfied with your oncs follow up. there is a point where it is ok to realx and trust your treatment. hard to get there sometimes....it is a balancing act sometimes.
hang in there
diana50
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Lets see...
When I was Dx, I had a chest x-ray, bone scan, CT scan. All clear, well there was something on my liver on my CT scan but they determined it to be "fatty liver"..
I have had NO follow up scans since then. Its been 2.5 yrs. For me, thats a ok...I hate scans and I feel Ive been radiated enough.
My onc is also another ' don;t scan without symptoms'. Im really ok with that....REALLY! So much other little things can show up on these scans..you will then go crazy with the anxiety and it could lead to unnecessary tests and biopsy..blah blah blah...
To me, its a waste of MY time. Time that could be spent at the park with my 4yr old, time I could spend out with my friends and most importantly...the time it takes to move forward from all this BS....lol.
I do go every 3months to see my onc. Still...after 2.5 yrs, but I do get Lupron shots every 3 months so why not just peek in to say hi and get a quick exam. I also do bloodwork before those appointments too.
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I also was wondering the same thing. I had chemo and rads last year and finished at the end of Nov. I started on Arimidex in Jan. My oncologist doesnt believe in scans unless you are complaining of something. This really unnerves me. I would rather know if something is somewhere else. I just had my first Mammo done in Jan and had to go back today for recheck on a place on the opposite side from where I had cancer. I was scheduled for biopsy for next Tues so I may be doing it all again anyway.
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I had my initial staging PET scan, then another scan about 4 weeks after rads (which made it 3 months post chemo). Other than that, he will only scan on symptoms. In the past 4 years I've had a lung CT and a bone scan.
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Frankie,
I had a CAT scan and bone scan at the time of diagnosis, and both were clear. If I were you, I would push for another scan on that rib to see if there have been any changes on it, since the only way to know what it is is to "watch it" (i.e. repeat scan).
Regarding the lady you met at the cancer center, that is such a sad story. Unfortunately, an initial MRI may have shown nothing, and she still could have had tumors six months later. Cancer can be very sneaky and fast. Getting a brain MRI isn't the standard of care unless someone is having symptoms that might call for one. That poor lady! It sounds like she had the standard of care, and her cancer was really aggressive.
Good luck getting the answers, and scans, that you need.
Hugs
Bobbie
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Hi, Frankie-
You did a great job explaining and laying out your concerns, probably the best I've seen on this site over the years asking the same questions: "Why no scans to confirm NED after initial tx?" and "Isn't it better to catch Stage IV earlier rather than later?" Please do not confuse my layman's summary with actual medical advice, but as of 7 years ago, studies had shown no measurable increase in life expectancy for women whose mets were discovered "earlier" than others (i.e.: smaller or less numerous mets found on scans). At that time, symptomless mets would show up on scans about 3-4 months before they gave symptoms and this advantage would not result in extended life expectancy.
I keep searching for a good analogy for breast cancer (and I always fail miserably) but let's try shower mildew for today. So you get mildew in the shower (BC) and treat it with bleach (your tx). Maybe it comes back, maybe it doesn't. It has to be a certain size before you can see it with your naked eye (like your cancer has to be before the scans can see it). But the bottom line is that if it comes back, your bleach treatment (tx) didn't work. And it probably won't work if you do the same thing again. The trick is find the right cleaner to eliminate it all, or the mildew will keep coming back. It doesn't really matter if you do an ineffective cleaner earlier against a smaller mildew patch. Catching the patch earlier doesn't make the difference; it is finding the right cleaner. This is one of the reasons that Stage IV bc patients will try different chemos, and why each person's cancer reacts differently to the treatments, with some chemos being effective for one person, but ineffective for another. And why some women with "small" tumors metastasize, while some women (like me) with big honkin' tumors are still walking around NED.
I think that you should be vigilant about any symptoms, and be insistent about the rib pain. You may find that you end up getting scans every few months anyway to check out symptoms, for the first year or so out of treatment.
I hope that others will pitch in here if they have more current explanations re: why no scans and no advantage to finding mets earlier.
Good luck,
Hope M.
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4 years since Dx and I'm still on a 3 month schedule of onc visits...he does not do any scans unless patient requests them or symptomatic, but he does to tumor markers, physical exam and history at each visit. As I am on AI's I also have a bone density (BMD) annual....at my age, they would normally be done every other year....At time of Dx, I had all sorts of scans....probably mostly routine....heart echo (I think, don't remember name, but it wasn't a muga scan), chest exray, bone scan, CT/PET scan, MRI....I am happy not to have all these tests....Personally, I think there is a wide range of accepted protocol and oncs do what fits them best as well as the patient. I thought I would be at 6 month intervals by now, but I think onc is keeping a close eye on me as I am miserable on the AI's and I think he is afraid I might just stop taking them (and I have given a lot of thought to doing that.
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Hope's analogy is great-and one which I shall use to explain the situation in future. I shall try first with my mil-who at 82 and over 2 years post my diagnosis of stage 1V doesn't understand. It's incredibly draining and upsetting being repeatedly asked by her "but when will the chemo end?" I've said often enough "when I die, or can no longer cope with the s/effects", but still she doesn't get it.
Returning to Hope's question-can you imagine if everyone who had ever had a cancer diagnosis had routine scans-the system would grind to a halt and no new patients would be seen! So taken into account that there is no benefit whatsover in metastatic disease being found early, and the confines of an already over burdened system, then I hope in time you will find the strength to walk away from cancer, and not let fear of it recurring dominate your life. Many people do and it's tragic to see-the cancer has killed them emotionally when they still have plenty to live for.
I know that you are having difficulty in believing your oncs "no benefiits" claim-but it's true-it's a question which is raised here many, many times, and the answers are always the same-if you can't believe your onc, then please try to believe us. We have no reason whatsover to lie to you, even if you think your onc is doing so.
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I appreciate that each of you have taken the time to address my concerns and provide examples of your personal experiences! Hope your analogy is great! Fear of a "reoccurence" has certainly got a hold of me...This disease affects many of us in some many ways (physically, emotionally, mentally, etc). I hope that over time I can control my thoughts and not to let this disease CONSUME me!
Frankie
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