San Antonio Conference--Dr. Winer on Aromatase Inhibitors
Just received this by email, from my support group facilitator:
"....Looking at all of these studies, the AIs given at some point in time to a post-menopausal woman, decrease the risk of recurrence.....The impact on survival has been far more modest....in some of the studies, there has been absolutely no improvement in survival, in some there's been a slight trend; in others, it's just barely reached statistical significance. ......and with time, we may see a little more, but it is probably not going to change that much, unless we change our approach......"
http://www.curetoday.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/article.showVideo/article_video_id/15
http://www.curetoday.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/article.show/id/2/article_id/1324
Comments
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Yaz,
Boy, is this intriguing.
But I can't get the link to go thru. Any ideas?
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I am looking into it. I would really like to hear Dr. Winer in his own words.
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I am having a problem opening it too. I'd love to see the video...
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I have been able to open this video by going to: http://www.curetoday.com/. Then, I typed "Dr. Winer" in the search box. It did ask me to download quicktime before I could view. Hope this helps.
While I was on the curetoday site, I also saw the following articles:
BY KAREN PATTERSON
Chronic inflammation causes cancer. Find out how and what's being done about it.
And this link:
http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20091214/are-ct-scans-sometimes-too-risky?src=RSS_PUBLIC:
".........
Are CT Scans Sometimes Too Risky?
Study Shows Radiation Doses From CT Scans Vary Widely By Kathleen Doheny
WebMD Health News Reviewed by Elizabeth Klodas, MD, FACCDec. 14, 2009 -- Radiation doses from CT scans are often high and vary widely, and excessively high doses may contribute substantially to future cancers, a study shows.
CT scans are noninvasive medical tests that combine special X-ray equipment and computers to produce detailed cross sectional images of the body. The number of CT scans performed has exploded over the last three decades, growing from about 3 million yearly in 1980 to about 70 million in 2007.
The new study is published in the Archives of Internal Medicine. Study researcher Rebecca Smith-Bindman, MD, of the University of California San Francisco, says the idea for the research began "when I was looking at some individual scans; I was surprised at how high the radiation dose was. I thought it was time to start looking."
The new research comes in the wake of the discovery earlier this year that more than 200 stroke patients at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles had received more than eight times the necessary radiation dose when undergoing CT scans. That, in turn, prompted the FDA to encourage CT facility personnel to review their protocols and be sure the values displayed on the control panel jibe with doses normally associated with the scan being performed.
In Smith-Bindman's study, researchers evaluated radiation doses given to 1,119 patients getting CT scans and found that ''the differences in radiation exposure were dramatic," she says. "The doses are on one hand higher than they should be, but also the variation [for the same procedure] is much higher than it should be."
The message from her research, Smith-Bindman says, is for doctors and patients not to panic but to become more aware of the issues. She says the findings also point to the need for more oversight of the scans.
Radiation From CT Scans
Smith-Bindman and her team evaluated CT scan patients who were getting care at four San Francisco area facilities in 2008. They calculated the radiation dose involved with each scan.
The doses varied widely between the different types of scans. The median doses (half higher, half lower) ranged from 2 millisieverts (the measures of radiation used in CT scans) for a routine head CT scan to 31 millisieverts for a multiple-phase abdomen and pelvic scan.
The dose ranges were high. For example, for a head CT scan, while the median dose was 2, the range was 0.3 to 6. "'That is a huge range," she says.
Most dramatic, she says, was the dose and the dose range for a multiphase abdomen and pelvic series. While the median dose was 31, the range was from 6 to 90.
Then the researchers estimated the lifetime cancer risk linked to the CT scan. They estimated that one in 270 women and one in 600 men who got a CT coronary angiogram at age 40 would develop cancer from that scan. They also estimated that one in 8,100 women and one in 11,080 men who had a routine head CT scan at age 40 would develop cancer.
CT Scans and Cancer
In another report published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, a team of researchers led by Amy Berrington de Gonzalez, DPhil, an investigator at the National Cancer Institute, also estimated the risk of cancer attributable to CT scans.
After looking at data from previous reports of radiation-linked cancer risk, insurance claims and nationwide surveys, they concluded that 29,000 future cancers could be related to the 70 million CT scans performed in the U.S. in 2007.
This includes an estimated 14,000 cases resulting from scans of the abdomen and pelvis; 4,100 from chest scans; 4,000 from head scans; and 2,700 from CT angiograms. One-third of these projected cancer cases would occur following scans performed on people ages 35 to 54. Two-thirds of the cancers would be in women, according to a news release.
The high number of cancers attributed to scans of the abdomen and pelvis is not surprising, according to Berrington de Gonzalez, since they are so commonly done. "One-third of the 70 million [scans] were abdominal and pelvic."
Other Opinions
The new research will hopefully raise awareness among doctors and consumers, says Rita Redberg, MD, professor of medicine at the University of California San Francisco and editor of the Archives of Internal Medicine, who wrote an editorial to accompany the reports.
''I don't think people routinely question, 'Do I need this CT scan at this time?'" she tells WebMD.
And they should, she says. If a doctor orders a CT scan, she advises: "Ask your doctor, 'How is this CT scan going to contribute to my medical care?' [and] 'How will it change how you are going to treat me and how will that help me?'"
The new findings about radiation doses and ranges should be balanced with consideration of the benefits of the technique, says Donald Frush, MD, chairman of the American College of Radiology Commission on Pediatrics and professor of radiology and pediatrics at Duke Medical Center, Durham, N.C. ''CT is a very helpful technique," he says. "It's one of the greatest medical advances."
But he, too, says consumers should specifically ask if the CT scan is necessary or if another imaging technique that doesn't require radiation, such as ultrasound, could be used.
Part of the problem, Smith-Bindman says, is a lack of consensus on what the radiation dose should be for different CT scans. In some cases, radiologists set the parameters, she says; other times manufacturers do. It's done in a variety of ways, she says.
The FDA has done survey studies, says Smith-Bindman, finding that ''doses need to be between X and Y." More oversight from the FDA would help, she says.
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I agree with you: I have a girlfriend whose cancer metastasized after about 10 years. She is currently very stable on an Aromatase Inhibitor. It is working really well for her.
I just don't see the benefit of the current trend for wide, wide distribution to patients who are not facing that particular situation.
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I am posting here in response to my surprise that Eric Winer's name showed up on this forum.
I am fortunate enough to be a patient of Eric Winer. He is an unbelievable advocate, researcher and humanitarian for every woman who ever had or might get BC. I think I am a prime example of what he is talking about with giving AI's to women prophylactically. I was three years into my Stage IV journey when I met him. I never took Tamoxifen after initial dx due to the threat of blood clots (I had one when I was 18). I then was able to get just under four years between Femara and Tamoxifen while Stage IV. I am now actually back on Femara after taking a course of estrogen to see if it "rebooted" my dormant ER receptors.
Dr. Winer often says to me that he almost wishes that I had had NO treatment when my mets were discovered as my cancer is very unaggressive and it may have been years before the mets grew to the point of needing treatment, leaving the AI's to give me even more time once tx became absolutely necessary. However, I cannot cry over spilt milk because it's done.
I know the natural girls on this site are not sold on conventional treatment but I think the fact that Dr. Winer (the king of mainstream treatment as far as I'm concerned) spoke out about against the protocol of taking Tamoxifen and or Femara before really needing it is a bold step on his part. That's him... he doesn't pull any punches. I would encourage all the women on this site to continue hearing him out on various aspects of treating BC. This man KNOWS his stuff and I consider myself extremely fortunate to have him on my side.
Robin
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Very interesting. I've been torn from the beginning on taking it. My fear of recurrence aided me to take it, but I still wonder.....what if it never came back and I'm taking all these harsh meds. I know many gals feel preventing mets is easier than treating them....and of course, there is no predicting who will go on to have mets or not. I'm 2-1/2 years into tamoxifen and about to start Arimidex and I keep thinking I should just take the curcumin, pomegranate, iodine and melatonin and let nature take its course.
Editing to add, if you click on the above link and then remove the
which automatically comes up from copying/pasting, you should get the video.
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My understanding is that the positive effects of AIs OVER tamoxifen is modest, not tat the positive effects of AIs over NOTHING is modest. Thats what my onc says, and his point and I'm sure Dr, Winer's is that there is no reason for a premenopausal women to have her ovaries out in order to go on an AI. But AIs are absolutely effective (as is tamoxifen) over no hormonal meds at all.
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Well, hats off to Dr. Winer for exposing that AIs don't work as an adjuvant therapy in terms of survival.
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Is this theory founded in research or is it just theoretical at this time? I'm not suggesting that it's not accurate but I'm wondering what science it is based on.
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I watched the video and I think there's one really important point missing from the excerpt that was quoted - he does say that based on the studies that he is referencing there was no increase in survival for various combinations of AIs and tamoxifen, BUT, a couple of minutes later he restates it and adds that the similar survival rates are survival rates at 5 YEARS.
I think a lot of us are looking for longer-term answers. He says that there is a difference in recurrence rates, but not a difference in survival rates at 5 years. It seems pretty likely that for ER positive, even people who have a recurrence within 5 years are not likely to be dead from it within that time span, so survival rates would be closer only 5 years out.
I'd like to know what the difference in outcomes are at 15 years - or longer.
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He did not say AIs don't work as an adjuvant therapy. Thats just absolutely inaccurate and misleading. He's only talking about the difference between AIs and tamoxifen and "don't work" was never a point he made at all.
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Oh, then let me correct the summary phrase, "doesn't work."
He said there was no survival benefit in those taking AIs as an adjuvant therapy.
If any alternative therapy had a track record this horrible it would be called an unproven, quack cure.
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Please do not misunderstand me... Tamoxifen and AI's definitely work for treating Stage IV breast cancer. What i believe Dr. Winer's point is that merely taking them as a preventive measure against recurrence has not been borne out by the research.
Robin
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So AIs as an adjuvant therapy may be scrapped?
Maybe the "save the bullets" for advanced disease strategy will prevail because AIs have a proven track record there.
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So what about all the research and large-scale trials which PROVED the increased benefit of taking an AI over tamoxifen?And which PROVED that adjuvant endocrine therapy is superior to no therapy? Is this suddenly ignored?
As we know,recurrence rates are lower (statistically significant) with an AI than with tamoxifen;but survival at 5 years is not really the proper yardstick to measure success; as a poster above mentioned, survival at 10, 15, 20 years would maybe tell a different story.
I also take issue with the notion stated above, 'many gals feel that preventing mets is easier than curing them' - excuse me......mets CANNOT be cured; once you are dx with mets, your chances of survival are very definitely lowered.At best, they can be controlled for a limited period of time.
I'm thinking that there has been a misunderstanding here somewhere....
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RobinWendy, you wrote: ".....Dr. Winer often says to me that he almost wishes that I had had NO treatment when my mets were discovered as my cancer is very unaggressive and it may have been years before the mets grew to the point of needing treatment, leaving the AI's to give me even more time once tx became absolutely necessary......"
Your description confirms my impression of Dr. Winer: an honest scientist and a very human doctor who cares deeply about his patients. Indeed, you are fortunate to have him on your side: I feel he belongs to a breed apart altogether.....Now, as a woman who knows Dr. Winer on a personal basis, please correct me if I am wrong, but what I understand here is that he strongly feels that AIs can help once metastasis has occurred. Since he would not even treat non-aggressive metastasis with AIs [until they progress], that clearly indicates that he does not believe that they are of any use in terms of preventing progression to Stage IV, right?
As for how efficient Tamoxifen is [in conjonction with AIs or not], I maintain that this medicine is not totally useless: I have said it before, and will say it again: it is currently keeping one of my support group members alive, having "deflated" her tumors. Indeed, Tamoxifen works for about 1 to 2 percent of women, in absolute statistics.
Relative statistics, of course, are always much more uplifting (which is why we see relative statistics first, but have to dig everywhere, call up/write/email independant researchers to obtain the absolute statistics on any drug). Of course, we sometimes get lucky and get those dismal statistics from the (conventional) horse's mouth.
I say: whatever works for people........... The placebo effect is a phenomenon that has been well-documented by conventional medicine, and is widely used by conventional doctors. If oncologists did not have Tamoxifen, their arsenal would be almost half empty, so Tamoxifen works at least that way for the overwhelming majority of the women on it, despite the possibility of some serious side-effects.
EDITED TO ADD: Any Alternative remedy that would present the type of understandable limitations that Tamoxifen and AIs present, would be viewed as quackery, and there would be people out to take that remedy off the market.
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One of the reasons I started to question my onc's pushing arimidex on me was that it was being used for stage 4. I thought why they heck should I take something that strong for a stage 1 tumor with not lymph node involvement and clear margins. It seems insane. The more I studied it the more I realized the research is there, but it faulty. For instance, they compared tamox uses with the AI's but they did not compare them with alternatives like DIM/I3C which do the same thing. And like Anom and Yaz noted. if a drug helps some people, it is touted as a success, but if an alternative helps a lot of people, but it is not part of some funded study, it is called quackery.
I will never accept that inhibiting or hormones is the answer. I will always maintain that balancing mine is the best route. And I do believe that as more and more of us demand these alternatives, we will be in such a large number that they cannot ignore us. I just keep going back to the fact that they use to do mastectomies for all breast cancer, and when French women demanded that their breasts were saved, and had good results, lumpectomies became standard protocol. I bet in 10 years they will be looking all the drugs for early stage bc as barbaric.
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Yazmin and others,
That is my take on what he is saying. But, since I have been Stage IV since I know him, we have not had any deep discussions of how he would have treated me the first time around. Dr. Winer prescribed both drugs for me and Tamoxifen helped me for 9 months. I got 3 years out of Femara but that was before I met him. Now I am back on Femara after a course of estradiol (new study confirmed that this sometimes works) and I won't have a scan to see if it has been rebooted til January 7th. I will let you all know.
Further, he has not really discussed with me tamoxifen versus AI's... just that he thinks they are overprescribed at times.
Robin
And you are right about Dr. Winer... he is a breed apart from the others in his field. Honestly, I absolutely LOVE him and so does my husband. I always feel better after speaking to him and he never rushes me along in my appointments. He may just be the best breast oncologist in the world (sorry for the gushing)
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Thank you, RobinWendy. And when you say: "he has not really discussed with me tamoxifen versus AI's... just that he thinks they are overprescribed at times," that's exactly my point about both drugs: I believe they can help some patients, but I also believe that they are over, over, over prescribed.
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Well, all I know is that there have been studies finding that for highly er/pr+ women like myself, hormonals are more effective than chemo. No way would I wait for mets. I'd prefer to prevent them.
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Here we go: Just in case someone does not have time to read this whole article:
WEBMD, Aug. 25, 2009 -- A new study links long-term use of the breast cancer drug tamoxifen to a rare but aggressive form of breast cancer,............[Note from Yazmin: BUT, AS USUAL: Not to worry
]: experts say the findings shouldn't stop breast cancer patients from taking tamoxifen.
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Tamoxifen: Risk of Rare Second Breast Cancer?
Treatment With Tamoxifen for Breast Cancer Patients Shouldn't Change, Researcher Says By Miranda Hitti
WebMD Health News Reviewed by Louise Chang, MDAug. 25, 2009 -- A new study links long-term use of the breast cancer drug tamoxifen to a rare but aggressive form of breast cancer, but experts say the findings shouldn't stop breast cancer patients from taking tamoxifen.
"We don't think that it overall changes the risk-benefit equation, in that women who are eligible to take this drug probably should still take it because of its proven benefit," researcher Christopher Li, MD, PhD, an associate member of the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle, tells WebMD.
"I think the worst thing that could happen, on a public health basis, with this paper is for patients and their doctors to look at this and say, 'Oh, this is a reason not to take tamoxifen.' Nothing could be further from the truth, for the reason that it obviously has enormous benefit," says Victor Vogel, MD, MHS, the American Cancer Society's national vice president for research.
Here's a look at the study Li and Vogel are talking about -- and why they stand by tamoxifen's use in breast cancer patients with "ER positive" breast cancer.
Most breast cancers are " ER positive," or estrogen receptor-positive. That means they grow when exposed to the hormone estrogen. Tamoxifen and other breast cancer hormone therapies thwart ER-positive breast cancer cells.
"ER negative" breast cancers, on the other hand, are rarer, tend to be more aggressive, and are more difficult to treat. They're not treated by tamoxifen or another class of estrogen-related breast cancer drugs called aromatase inhibitors, because ER-negative breast tumors aren't sensitive to estrogen.
Tamoxifen Study
Li's team studied data on nearly 1,100 Seattle-area women aged 40-79 who were treated for ER-positive breast cancer between 1990 and 2005. The group included 367 women who developed breast cancer in their other breast at least six months after their first diagnosis.
Li and colleagues interviewed all of the women and checked their medical records, noting any use of tamoxifen or other hormone therapies to help prevent breast cancer's return, and how long those drugs were used.
Most of the women took tamoxifen -- aromatase inhibitors are newer drugs and weren't available during many of the years studied. And most of the women didn't have another cancer develop in their other breast.
Women who used tamoxifen or other breast cancer hormone therapies were 60% less likely to develop an ER-positive cancer in their other breast, compared to those who never took tamoxifen.
But women who used tamoxifen for five or more years were about four times more likely than women who never used breast cancer hormone therapies to develop an ER-negative tumor in their other breast.
Tamoxifen use for less than five years wasn't linked to ER-negative breast cancer risk. The study didn't include any women taking tamoxifen to try to prevent a first breast cancer.
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Just wanted to clarify that Dr. Winer's words to me ONLY pertained to my particular scenario. And he had the benefit of hindsight as no one knew before the fact that my mets would turn out to be so unaggressive. Who can really say what he might have had me do six years ago when I became Stage IV. Less was known about Tamoxifen and though the AI's were established at that time, there was not yet a long history to track. Unfortunately, until there is a lengthy track record for all kinds of drugs that get FDA approved, it is almost impossible to really know the ramifications of taking that drug.
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Dear RobinWendy:
Indeed, it is understood that Dr: Winer's words only pertained to your particular case. Thank you for clarifying. I still think it is very generous of you to have shared your point of view as someone who personally knows him. Thank you for that.
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Hi All,
On behalf of CURE magazine I would like to apologize for the error in the link provided.
You can find Dr. Winer's full video interview here: http://www.curetoday.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/article.showVideo/article_video_id/15/ and a feature article from the conference here: http://www.curetoday.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/article.show/id/2/article_id/1324.
Additionally, you can find all of CURE's coverage from the 2009 San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium at sabcs2009.curetoday.com!
Thanks for starting the discussion Yazmin!
-Alexandra @ CURE
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This was interesting. Thanks for posting it.
I'm not ambivalent on this topic as it pertains to my choice. And I think the choice of treatment is a personal decision.
I agree with Dr. Winer. After 3 1/2 years on Arimidex trying every possible remedy to manage the side effects, fighting my way through a daily cognitive fog and arrived to use a cane to walk, I decided that was enough...that was April 2009. From what I remember to have read, I'm one of the 30% who stop the medication for this reason after 3 years.
My brain fog is greatly improved and I no longer use a cane although joint pain is still part of my life. I'm fully aware of the possible consequences of that decision and accept them. I'm not deluded to think that the beast won't rattle my cage again. I'll deal with it as it comes.
The side effects were significant. Dr. Winer termed them "very troubling". I sent this video to a friend of mine who is a researcher in this field. He's a good friend so I could term the side effects as .... well I can't repeat it here .... but I told it like it is and he understood perfectly.
I wouldn't presume to recommend my course of action to anyone. Nor would I criticize them for theirs. This tight rope is hard for all of us.
It will be May before I have my dreaded next check up. Before then I'll have my bladder and thyroid checked. And I'll cross each bridge when I get to them.
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Alexandra_Cure:
Thanks for taking the time to clarify;
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I find this a bit confusing. I watched the video.
He says that AI's do help in preventing a recurrence but not necessarily (perhaps) in overall longterm survival.
How do you interpret this?
- That if you take the AI's the cancer that is going to get you in the end takes longer to come back?
- The AI's won't "cure" you of BC fatality, but it will prevent a recurrence for a while?
HELP.
Spring.
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I think he's saying patients who took no Arimidex survived just as long as those who took Arimidex.. Tho, they may have had local recurrences.
Some treatments seem to work on recurrence (like radiation) but don't effect survival. The question is, do you want to go through five years of side effects to reduce chances of a recurrence that doesn't effect your survival?
Does anybody know how long Arimidex been being prescribed by oncs? Ten years?
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Molly,
This article is dated 2000 and here is a sentence from this article.
Arimidex was first approved in 1996 as a treatment for postmenopausal women with advanced breast cancer who progressed following hormonal treatment with tamoxifen
http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/1DFDD2.htm
It was scheduled to go off patent in 2009,
http://breast-cancer.emedtv.com/arimidex/generic-arimidex.html
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