The Bailout: For or Against

For anyone who missed the VP debate, or like me, could not make it past their 9:30 pm bedtime, here it isin its entirety

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FbCPzAsRA 

a.s., love that photo on the previous page.  lol  I haven't read through all the posts here.  And I'm admittedly idealistic when I think of how government should be.  Corruption offends me and I think government should be free of it.  So I don't know what the answer is politically.  Practically speaking, however, I think we really need to add Mother Earth to the top of our list of priorities considered here. 

I think people in every walk of life has contributed to this problem simply by being ravenous consumers.  I think lenders financed people who were destined to fail.  And I believe those consumers were buying more square feet than they could realistically afford.  Just in my own community, the wage scale is pitiful.  Yet new neighborhoods are being built every year, many with hoity toity houses.  I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of the people living in those houses are living beyond their means, paycheck to paycheck with no savings. 

I personally live in an average house in an average nice neighborhood.  And I'm living beyond my means since bc came to visit.  Yet, there's not much option for me to downsize and still be a home owner and not a renter.  And with all these hurricanes coming along to wash our houses out to sea, it seems like the obvious factor that should be 'giving' is our materialism.  We can all live on a whole lot less than what advertisers tell us.  And it's not entirely wall street's fault that it made so many bad loans.  People consumed those loans.  So I don't know if the bailout is good, bad, or ineffective.  I simply wonder if anyone is going to get a clue that we are collectively living beyond our means, economically and environmentally, and it needs to stop.  

Althea & AnneShirley,

I agree with both of you on many levels. My family just finished participating in a city-wide garage sale last weekend. We made a few dollars and got rid of a lot of "stuff." What was left over when in 3 directions: Goodwill, American Cancer Society (Discovery shop--where I also visit first if I need to purchase something from household goods to clothing & baby toys), and the rest of the baby things my daughter will take to a local resale shop that specializes in baby clothes, toys, equipment, etc. They will give her a few dollars for the goods she turns in to them. It was an exhausting day, but I was proud of myself for really concentrating on cleaning out the shed and closets, and saying often "do I really need this?" It was hard for me to clean out my work clothes as I had to get a new wardrobe that fit (smaller sizes) after bc treatment, and harder still not to bring what did not sell back into the house. But I persisted, and don't miss one thing I got rid of. I hope I can continue to weed out as needed. I felt many pounds lighter by doing so!

I was put out to pasture not of my own free will, so there has been much adjusting with that, including our monetary income. We no longer have that lovely "discretionary" income, so purchases (like I need new glasses as my prescription has changed) have to be decided on carefully. But I am learning to cut corners, and am proud of myself when I come up with another way of saving $$.

Out here in CA homes that are 3,000square feet are considered "small." It's not unheard of for a celebrity, or silicon valley entrepeneur to build 25,000+ square foot houses with bowling alleys, theaters, gyms and indoor pools. It is so over the top nouveau riche, it just frustrates those of us who do not see any wisdom in spending money that way when there are plenty of other ways to spend it. What I see happening in this country is the need for some people to buy, buy and buy and consume more and better all the time. I think the spending and acquiring of goods is a way to feel good about oneself, when there is no spiritual or thinking inner self. I see these frantic souls rushing to own the latest blackberry, hummer, vacation villas rented for $12,000 a day.

We are a country of people wanting to do 5 things at once, have a career and retire with millions (maybe they will need trillions now) at the age of 40. And then what do they intend to do?

We eat quickly, and all the wrong foods. We drive quickly, talk quickly, buy quickly, and get nasty when someone who is "serving" us doesn't move fast enough. I see so many rude people each day. And I see clerks apologizing for taking the time to pack the purchase neatly into the bag, or clerks who are so bored and not challenged in their job, that it's all they can do to get the item and receipt in the bag without a have a good day message.

I grew up with a father who worked three jobs, so we girls (3 of us) could live in an upper class neighborhood and school to attend, along with Christmases and birthdays that brought us many more gifts than we needed. My mother stayed at home and kept the house, took us to the library, shopping and to activities. My father planned wonderful 3 week vacations every summer that often included driving across country and staying at nice hotels, always with pools. I grew up in the 50s & 60s, and of course I can say now it was an ideal time. But looking back on it, for all that I had, there were many, particularly people of color who didn't have 1/10th of what I had. Don't get me wrong, there were white people also living in poverty. I remember a girl at school who I became friends with, and she invited me to her house after school one day. The house she lived with her grandmother and mother (gm was invalid, mom worked full time) was not typical of the homes surrounding theirs. Hers was a cottage, with peeling wallpaper, few lamps, and sheets covering the windows. The rooms were small, the yard filled with weeds, and composite roofing shingles covered the sides of the house. I really liked going over there, because her grandmother was very nice and encouraged us to talk about anything we wanted to. We played games and talked about school, or did our homework (jr. high). I really didn't think about her living conditions or income level. But others at our school shunned her because of those things. One day, she was no longer in school. I went by the house on my way home but it was empty. They were no longer there. I don't know what happened to them, and no one talked about them at all. I still think about her occasionally, and wonder where she ended up; was she able to go to college; where is she now; is she married w/children. I realized how blessed and privileged I was compared to others. When I think about those years, it humbles me. Although I had many more things than some of my peers, I never thought about that or thought less of someone who lived in a poor neighborhood; but as we go through these troubled times, I think more about how all of this administrations' mediocre policies that are costing us our freedom and ability to live with just the basics--shelter, food, education, water, utilities--that we have squandered some of our most valuable resources; and if we don't act quickly and make some changes in how this country lives on this planet, we are dooming our children and their childrens' future. So many species of animals, insects, and plants become extinct daily, it makes my heart bleed. These are wonderful gifts on our planet that my granddaughter will only know from a book. There are so many simple tasks that we can do to keep many recyclables out of the landfill.

I am making it a priority as a fully retired person who is unable to work, to use less and less of what I don't really need, to volunteer for organizations that are dear to my heart and where I can make a difference; to find activities to do with my granddaughter that don't cost money; to glean again and again what I don't need in my home, that others might need; to garden, compost, and cook more, buy organic and fresh from the farmer when I can; use no pesticides in my garden; and to teach my granddaughter what I learn.

I know that many people thrive on being a "superperson" and try to be the best and the greatest without realizing the stress they are placing on their body. I now drive the speed limit, have the radio dial on classical music, and encourage someone to turn before I do, or go ahead of me; I want to have the time to smell the roses, cuddle with my kitties; walk on the beach with my dogs; cook breakfast on the weekends for my husband and sit out under the Redwoods with him and read the Sunday paper before going on a hike; try new recipes. I want to enjoy retirement and find what I like in each person I come into contact with. I love spending 2 days a week with my 81 year old mother, and hope that she has many, many years to continue to spend those 2 days with me. It's amazing that my values and my priorities have changed so much. I'm not sure if it's the "retirement," or the breast cancer and lymphedema that is responsible for my paradigm shift? But it's great!

I hope that our country can repair itself and our reputation abroad. Some on this board don't seem to care what Europe thinks about us. Well, I do, and I think it is very important for our nation to have good relations with all countries of the world. We all live on this small space in our universe. If we wreck it completely, I don't think we will soon find another place to move to and wreck!

Change is hard for some, but there has to be much change on this planet if the human species is to survive! 

Althea, I have to disagree.  Sorry.  No homeowener that was offered a bad loan should feel guilty.  Come on people, the sub prime mortgage was like a casino.  It lures you in and then sucks you in. 

I too am confused at the direction this thread is going.  There are many people out there, like my husband - who openly admits he doesnt know who he is voting for and wont know until he walks into the voting booth.  Most of you know who Im voting for - so wont discuss that here lol. 

I have never been in a situation where I was financial sound.  In fact, I do believe that because of living from paycheck to paycheck with no real retirement plan - I will end up being a bag lady.  Thats if I live long enough.

I have always paid my bills, but then something happened to me.  Breast cancer entered my home, and despite having insurance, I have had to pay thousands of dollars to doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical companies who have greed that is quite despicable to me.  I still remain in good credit, but it has been difficult to say the least.

So when we are talking about people spending beyond their means, who are we talking about?  I bought my first house in 2005 and believe me it wasnt easy.  Even had a $40,000 dollar down payment and getting the loan approved was more than difficult.  I almost gave up a couple of times if it were not for my friend encouraging and walking me through this house buying process.  It makes me wonder who were these people getting these loans.  I sure wasnt one of them.

I also ask when did it happen, that all of a sudden CEO's are getting million dollar bonuses for a job not well done.  Why insurance companies are making huge profits by denying necessary tests and treatment for so many.  My educations didnt come easy.  I worked full time and went to school for most of my life.  I believe there are way too many people out there who cannot make ends meet.  Who cannot buy groceries until pay day, and when they do, their food costs have gone up and up, leaving less and less to spend on other things of necessity. Buying a pair of shoes, getting a winter coat, heating their homes.

I have said before, I dont understand the whole economic bail out strategies and probably never will.  My husband didnt want the bail out.  Somehow I feel better knowing the bill was approved, although I despise the fact that there were earmarks added to get the job done.

I just want to live my life each day.  Enjoy the people around me and pray for those who dont have what I have - which isnt much in itself.

Its a cold day here in Chicago.  Gonna try and make some Minestrone today.  Dont have a recipe, it will be a little of this and a little of that.  Hope it comes out good so I can share my recipe with ya all.  Im gonna run out and get some fresh Italian Bread - to dip with.  As some would say - yummers!

Nicki 

I always stay out of the political threads...but I have to say there were people on both sides of the aisle who have been sounding alarm bells for quite some time...not just one party.

Here's what Senator Dorgan (D-ND) said recently regarding comments he made back in 1999...I have copy and pasted it from a statement he gave recently regarding the bailout:

“How did we get here? In 1999, when the Congress was pressured to repeal the financial protections that were put in place following the Great Depression, I voted against it. That bill, the mis-named Financial Modernization Act, repealed the Glass-Steagall Act. I warned then that a ‘financial swamp’ would result from the casino-like prospect of merging banking with the speculative activity of real estate and securities.

“In 1999, when the bill was debated, I warned, ‘This bill will also raise the likelihood of future massive taxpayer bailouts…I also think we will, in 10 years time, look back and say…we forgot the lessons of the past.’ I take no satisfaction that I was right."

That's the end of the quote.

As for me, I don't know if this bailout was the right thing to do or not....I don't have an economic background.  It's passed and now I just pray for our country.  It's very scary times going into a long, cold winter.

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Linda...I have to agree with you on all counts. And helping people who truly need help is one thing but enabling people is another. And too often the two are confused.

Certainly there is greed in the Hollywood movie industry and music industry. Those are luxuries. It is not a necessity of life to buy a CD or pay $12. to see a trashy movie. Right now, to most of the American people, gas is a necessity of life! It heats their living space in the cold months, and cools it in the hot months. It cooks their food and runs the appliances in their houses for clean clothes, hot water, clean dishes and clean house. It works the tools they use in the yard to keep their abode fire safe if they live in the woods, and free of rodents (like rats) in close city quarters. It makes the clothes they need to work, play, and sleep. It runs their cars so they can get to work, get an education, get to medical services. I think we could go on and on about this. that is why people make such a big deal regarding "OIL." That is why we are so dependent on this one item. And that is why we need to tax the oil companies so that research can be done and work can be done to reduce our need for foreign oil, AS WELL AS THE NEED FOR DOMESTIC OIL--AS IN NO MORE DRILLING!! The American public is going to have to learn new strategies for living our lives using less oil. It's good for us, and it's good for the planet. The oil companies have been receiving huge, I mean humungous tax breaks and making even bigger profits off of their oil supplies. This has been going on for a number of years. We hear how they need these tax breaks and huge profits for research into alternative energy development. Okay, maybe that's true, however I haven't seen any published results of their research development in renewable clean energy plans. Just doesn't sit right with me. They get all these breaks to make big profits and supposedly are using these for research so we can use less energy in the future, and under the current Republican administration we have yet to see how they spent one dime or put into place a way of reducing our dependence on oil. Seems like the foxes are guarding the hen house here? Just doesn't make sense. It's like taxing the bakery to make healthy goods instead of sugary and fatty goods, and the baker says he's using his profits to research healthier sources, but isn't it in his interest to continue the "research" and not change his products, which would put him out of business if his customers like the sugary, fatty stuff he's selling right now?

We Americans don't want to get out of our comfort zones. And Warren Buffett has a huge stake in windpower, so that's why he has put together an energy plan that will reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Another person out for themselves first, and country last!!

I agree with Anneshirley, Americans are do not give the most. Americans basically live with a meritocracy philosophy, not a democratic or holistic philosophy. We have lost the desire to truly live by the golden rule. And many of the organizations that we donate to, who use those funds to help other means, that help has strings attached to it along with a body of people who have decided that they know what's best for another group of people--it's called missionary response. It was used for years in Third World countries where faith based people brought Christianity and their doctrines to force other peoples to gain the help only if they abided by what the missionaries thought what was best for them. The missionaries never asked what the people needed to succeed. That way of bringing help to others continues in this country. That is why we cannot end homelessness in this country. That is why so many of our Veterans are living on the streets. That is why we cannot understand why people of color say, that's okay, your help is not needed. It's time we realize that what we perceive as democracy, is probably not the definition of democracy in another country. That's also why the war in Iraq was a stupid plan.

Other countries do very well paying larger amts of taxes and taking care of their citizens--from cradle to grave--and yet creativity and growing their livelihood is not stifled nor stagnant. The citizens of these countries do not rely on foreign oil, nor other countries to produce their good for slave wages and sell them in huge mega stores without being fully inspected. These countries encourage individual growth and creativity. After all, we import much of the more expensive household goods from these countries. Many of these countries are on the leading edge of buidling green housing developments that are centrally located so cars are not required. These countries provide beautiful artisan quality household goods that many Americans enjoy displaying in their homes. these countries have developed the best appliances that are the most energy efficient, and require little water to work--washer, dishwasher, bathtubs, etc. We could learn much from these countries if we weren't so bullheaded in thinking we know better than anyone else in the world. We have our noses stuck so high in the air, we can't smell what's bad all around us!

As for the pork barrel added to the "rescue plan," this bill was a bi-partisan effort, wasn't it? Don't blame the Dems for everything. We may have contributed to this, but the Republicans are no better. Congress was in this together. Perhaps the time will come when some of the complainers will actually run for office. I think there are women on this board who would make excellent political leaders. Anyone want to step up to the task?

By the way, McCain and Obama both voted to pass this bill. Looks like neither of them stood up for what they said earlier! 

AS, I'm with you on France and their croissants!!! 

And I, too, live in a small home (1,100 sq.ft?). I have one working tv, no dishwasher, one bathroom and live as modestly as I can. (oh, do things need to be repaired around here!)

I am very dismayed that this bailout package passed so easily.

I'd move to Europe in a heartbeat if I could. Guess I'll just have to fly there every week instead.

In France physicians income averages about $55,000 a year. In the U.S. their income averages about $194,000. Think you can get American physicians to take a 2/3 pay cut?