Multitasking: Obama vs. McCain

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anneshirley
anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110

Some comments by me on the suggestion by Obama that McCain may not have the ability to "multitask" because he asked to postpone the foreign policy debate.

The term "multitask" was coined by computer designers to identify operating systems that perform more than one task at a time. It was used first by designers of the Unix PC, in Bell Labs, some time in the early 1980's. It was never intended to refer to human activity. Computers can multitask, humans can't.

Obama is in Florida for three full days to prepare for Friday's debate and McCain has scheduled one day for preparation (yesterday at the Morgan Library). Assuming the information I found on their schedules is correct, their preparation time alone would suggest which one of them is not capable of multitasking. After 18 debates in the primaries, a number of them focused on foreign policy, Obama still requires three full days to prepare for a debate with John McCain, a man who is a notoriously poor debater! Obama's idea of multitasking is to spend three full days preparing for a debate. What would he do if Russia declared war on the U.S., spend three full days in the WH library preparing his answer. Some of the other arguments put forth by Obama's supporters for McCain's decision are just plain silly. The first is that McCain is afraid of debating Obama.

McCain is the one who requested that the first debate focus on foreign policy as he views this as the area where he excels.

McCain has asked Obama many times to meet with him in Town Hall meetings to debate the issues. Obama has refused.

The general belief is that the person who is ahead in the polls is better off not debating. Why take unnecessary chances? Right now, Obama is ahead in the polls and a debate can only help McCain and possibly hurt Obama.

McCain has not asked that the debates be cancelled (he would be foolish if he did) but for a postponement until the Wall Street bailout package is finalized. If anything, by postponing the debate, the audience will be greater when it does happen and it will expect more of McCain since he was the one who cancelled. This is not helpful to McCain.

I believe that McCain's decision to suspend his campaign and postpone the debate is a political tactic, but I also believe it makes sense. If I were running for president and had any chance of winning, I would want to be totally involved in deciding how and if this package should be passed, as I would be the one responsible for making it work. What disturbs me is that Obama's plans are more dependent than McCain's on having ample funds in the Treasury. His plans for energy and health care need to be funded in the billions, yet he's willing to let others decide on this package?

So why do I think Obama rejected the postponement:

He is out of his comfort zone when anything unexpected happens. He appears, to me anyway, to be very hesitant when making decisions (one of the reasons for his 130 present votes and the lack of specifics in his speeches). No doubt he had his head wrapped around this debate and his preparations and just couldn't cope with this unexpected change. That doesn't bode well for his dealings with the unexpected if he reaches the White House. I'm thinking in particular of events like the Cuban missile crisis.

Obama is criticizing McCain for a trait that actually describes him. I'm not suggesting that this is all bad as I find McCain to be too much the opposite, moving too quickly. An example was McCain's quick, and I thought inappropriate, response to the Russia/Georgia crisis.

They are both flawed decision makers in my view, but for Obama to suggest that McCain has a problem with multitasking is a particularly wild spin from one who has such difficulty making decisions.

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  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    I accompanied my husband to the doctor this morning (some type of bacteria in his stomach) and while the doctor was doing an endoscopy I was reading Webdoctor (think that's the name) and don't you know there was an article in there about multitasking, and the writer, a neurologist, agreed that humans can't multitask.  They can do a number of tasks in a very short while but, unlike computers that can actually do more than one thing at the same time, humans cannot.  So anyone who is reading here is thinking, who cares.  Well, I do, and I think Obama should care.  His only claim to fame is his ability to use words so for him to use a term incorrectly irritated the hell out of me.  

    And even more than that, it irritated me because what he meant to say, that McCain can only focus on one thing until it's accomplished, is also not true.  Since Obama found it necessary to spend three days preparing for a debate and McCain only one, it sure seemed to me that the one with the single focus brain is Obama.  I'll bet he was furious when Bush suggested he come to the meeting since it meant one day away from his preparation.  Okay, that's it.  Thread is ended. 

  • djd
    djd Member Posts: 866
    edited September 2008

    annshirley,

     I understand that you have made up your mind long ago that you don't like Obama.  But are you seriously thinking that undecided voters will make their decision based on the nuance or clinical definition of a word that has been part of the modern vernacular for many years?

    The average American has a generic understanding of the word and use the word generically, not literally.  Do you really want to tell a mother who is cooking dinner, helping kids with their homework and answering the phone, etc., that she's *not* multi-tasking?

    As far as Obama spending 3 days to prepare, well, that's just silly.  He's been all over TV and as you pointed out, in DC yesterday.  He may have blocked the time off to prepare - but you can't seriously believe that he intended to do nothing else with barely a month to go before election day. 

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Let me be clear, I didn't make up my mind to dislike Obama; Obama made up my mind to dislike Obama, and it didn't happen overnight or long ago, it took years of watching him evolve:

    I began by admiring him when he gave his speech in 2004 at the Convention and thought, he'll evolve nicely into a future presidential candidate.  And then when I was reintroduced to him in 2007, I particularly admired him for his stated view that if he were in power he would take a more fair-minded view of the Israeli-Palestine issue.  I admired him even more when he refused to wear a flag pin, and gave good reasons why he didn't, that patriotism doesn't require the wearing of a flag pin, which is just plain pandering--my words, not his.

    I started to question his judgment and integrity, particularly as his main thrust in running for president with almost no experience in the Senate was that he was against war, when he said in the first debate he would bomb Pakistan without permission of the Pakistan government (an ally of ours).  (I wonder if any one asks all those Afghan and Pakistan civilians that we bomb and kill if they mind?  But since they're not American civilians, who cares.  Certainly, not Obama.)

    And I also admired him when he first supported his pastor (mind you, I may be the only American who will admit openly that Wright was correct in most of his statements, albeit not the one about AIDS).  But then, of course, he threw Wright under the proverbial bus, along with his grandmother.  That, in particular, initiated my actual dislike of him.  His grandmother was the person who paid for his expensive private school education.  She's now an old woman, and I can't even imagine how hurt she must have been by his public words about her or how horrified I was that he would demean her for political purposes.

    And then, of course, he lacked the courage to support mandated universal health care (mainly because he knew the word "mandate" would inflame the Republicans in the general election).  In other words I don't believe Obama has any principles that he won't forego if they are no longer popular. 

    And, of course, he threw his doctrine of fairness towards the Palestinians under the same bus (now a double decker), probably about the same time he [began] stopped wearing a flag pin. (N.B. corrected began to stopped)

    And then he wins the primary and within a few weeks:

    Agrees with Scalia, and against the Supreme Court ruling, on the death penalty.

    Agrees with Scalia and Thomas on gun control (lack thereof).

    Agrees with Bush on government support of religious organizations.

    Refuses public funding for his campaign.

    Adds nuance to his support for abortion.

    There are more, many more, but I'm elevating my BP thinking of them all.  How anyone who calls himself or herself a Democrat, let alone a liberal, can support Obama enthusiastically is beyond me, unless of course none of these people care about positions, only personality.   I vote platform, not personality, and if I did vote personality I'd have voted in the Republican primary for Mike Huckabee, and in the nationals I'd be voting for McCain, not Nader, who as far as I can tell doesn't have a personality.  I don't think it much matters to those without health care or who are trying to live on a minimum wage of a bit over $7.00 an hour, or those who are dying by way of American bombs, if the American president is cool, or handsome, or makes a good speech.

    On multitasking. No, I don't expect most people to appreciate the nuances of language, but I do expect better from someone who is essentially a writer by trade, which is, I think, a good description of Barack Obama.  If I were the kid's mother you describe, I wouldn't use the word "multitasking" to describe doing different tasks one after the other, but perhaps that's because I was one of those who actually coined the word in the 1980's to describe a computer operating system (the Unix PC) that could do a number of things at once and I'm aware of its meaning and I dislike it when educated people misuse it. The same is true of people who use words like "interface" to mean talking to, and all the other incorrect uses of computer terminology.  But I suppose it's to be expected of Obama.  When I listen to him speak, I am always reminded of Orwell's essay, "Politics and the English Language."  

    But I was more amused by the number of Obama supporters who jumped on the word and repeated it, over and over again, like a mantra.  Oh, do you know what Obama said?  McCain can't multitask!  Isn't Obama clever.  Yet none of them actually thought through what it actually meant, that Obama had decided not to return to Washington, like McCain, and postpone the debate.  Obama will be in charge of making this bailout package work, which is a lot more important than a debate (basically an exercise in oneupmanship).  

    And yes, he was in DC but not because he wanted to be there but because Bush specifically invited him and it would have been difficult for him to refuse.  I find it surprising that he wouldn't want to be involved in creating a package that he (and it probably will be Obama) will have to live with for four years, a package that will mean changing all of his plans for the economy, and I think the reason is that he lacks the ability to "multitask."  So there!

    On another topic.  Are all the posters on the Obama thread young, and without cancer?  I'd almost assume so, since they seem to revel in the thought that McCain's age and/'or cancer will do him in very soon.  It's a bit disturbing to me though, at 67 and with breast cancer, to think that so many are willing to assume me near death, or incapacity, because of my age and illness.  Sexism, ageism, and racism are equally ugly but I suppose if you haven't experienced any of these yourself and also lack a sympathetic imagination, you can't know it yet.  Hopefully, you never will.

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Susan, I believe I already said that I don't like McCain's quick shooter way of making decisions, but I don't think Obama's method is any better.  He has a difficult time making decisions, which is why I believe he voted "present" 130 times.  He's afraid of making mistakes so he over compensates, taking advice from everyone and then he puts off the tough decisions.  That's great if you have years to make a decision but there are times when one has to make decisions quickly.  Also, as I note in my post above, he changes his mind constantly, which is more than just an irritant.  First, it suggests he has no permanently formed principles and second, it's likely to make us enemies.  People tend to expect loyalty and consistency in their allies and leaders. His coolness can just as easily be interpreted as a lack of passion, or as pure political calculation, which is what I believe it to be.  

    McCain does very well in town hall meetings.  He is very relaxed, takes questions easily, and has a sense of humor, so, of course, he wants to use this forum for his meetings with Obama.  Obama, on the other hand, is not good in such forums.  He stands out when making a speech in front of huge audiences but he lacks the natural warmth of McCain; and he is not facile when answering questions for which he is not prepared.  I can't speak for others, but I hate it when he speaks off the cuff--his um's are very distracting. 

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited September 2008

    Ah, one person sees "careful, calm, deliberation" and another person sees "hesitancy" & "lack of preparation".  Maybe it's a bit of both?

    Personally, I'm another one who looks at Obama and sees indecisiveness, frustration whenever something doesn't go as planned, and anger (barely contained) when challenged.  This is a man with very thin skin who is not good at taking criticism.  Not exactly the best traits for a President. As for careful, calm, deliberation - yes, I sometimes see that too, but it seems to be situational.  When Obama is dealing with something that he knows about, he's quite quick to decide and he appears totally in control.  However when he's dealing with a topic that he's less familiar with - foreign policy, the economy, taxation, etc. etc. - he surrounds himself with dozens of experts and he is slow and deliberate in making his decision or putting out a statement.  It appears to me that as issues come up, he is educating himself on the fly, using these experts to learn as he goes.  And it's because he's just dipping his toe into these issues for the first time,  I don't think anyone can know what would really happen during an Obama presidency, what the policies will be.  Obama may say one thing during the campaign, but if another advisor presents a different perspective later, he could easily change his mind - on just about everything. 

    I really do think it's good to have a leader who is willing to learn, willing to listen to new perspectives, willing to give thoughtful consideration to new ideas, willing to change his or her mind if new information is presented, but I'd like to see a track record of experience so that I know that I trust this individual's judgement.  That's what Obama is missing.  We all see the traits of the candidates differently and we can disagree on their strengths and weaknesses.  But one thing that is indisputable is the fact that Obama is the least qualified presidental candidate in 50 - 100 years.  Not even the Democrats disagree with this (just go back to what Obama's competitors said during the Democratic party debates) but they simply spin it by saying that this will allow him to 'change' Washingon.  (By the way, "changing Washington" was what Jimmy Carter was elected on too; that worked well for him and America, don't you think?)    

    As for the reason Obama's not doing the townhalls, here's an explanation of that:

    McCAIN, OBAMA FAIL TO AGREE ON TOWNHALLS   June 13th, 2008.

    WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Friday rejected Republican rival John McCain's proposal for 10 joint town-hall appearances, offering instead to have just one on the July 4 holiday.

    Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said he offered to meet McCain in five joint appearances between now and the Nov. 4 election. But only one of those was a town-hall meeting, plus three traditional debates and an in-depth debate on foreign policy.

    The McCain campaign said Obama's offer was to hold the single town hall on Independence Day _ which likely would have resulted in less attention while Americans are on holiday. McCain told reporters traveling with him in New Jersey that was "a very disappointing response."

    McCain had said the more intimate town-hall format, a give-and-take between a candidate and the audience, would allow real interaction with voters and would be more revealing than formal televised debates. Town halls are also McCain's favorite style of campaigning and would allow him to get free media attention alongside the better-funded Obama.

    When a McCain adviser first floated the idea last month, Obama said it was a great idea. But the Illinois senator told reporters Tuesday that it's not realistic to have 10 town halls with all the other campaigning he needs to do after just clinching the Democratic Party's nomination months after McCain wrapped up the GOP nod.

    The two campaigns have been unable to work out a deal, other than to agree that the town halls should not be sponsored by media organizations and instead be open to all networks like presidential debates. The two sides on Sunday jointly rejected an offer by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and ABC News to host the first town hall for that reason.

    Plouffe tried to place the blame on McCain for refusing to agree, saying five joint appearances "would have been the most of any presidential campaign in the modern era, offering a broad range of formats and representing a historic commitment to openness and transparency."

    "It's disappointing that Senator McCain and his campaign decided to decline this proposal. Apparently they would rather contrive a political issue than foster a genuine discussion about the future of our country," Plouffe said.

    McCain responded during a brief news conference in Pemberton, N.J., where he traveled for his own town hall.

    "I'll let the American people decide which is the preferable proposal," he said. "I want the American people to have the exposure to a number of town hall meetings, not just one."

    ___

    Associated Press writer Jim Kuhnhenn in Pemberton, N.J., contributed to this report.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/13/mccain-obama-fail-to-agre_n_107033.html

  • BethNY
    BethNY Member Posts: 2,710
    edited September 2008

    I'm multi tasking right now.  I'm watching tv, reading and answering posts, text messaging my fiance, and chewing gum.

    Yup. Pretty sure thats multi tasking. I know you are highly intellectual, but I can't believe you're getting bent out of shape over a word.  People use words incorrectly all the time. 

    And why would you say everyone on the obama thread is young and without cancer?  Do you read their bio's, signatures, or profile's.  I don't suppose you near death b/c you are 67 with BC. However, the Man that is running to become the next president who is in his 70's, and has multiple health concerns... hell yeah that bothers me. 

    I'm going to multi-task during the debate tonight.  I'll use my split screen function so we can have the Mets game on at the same time.  I'll probably be watching the TV from the kitchen as I make us something to eat, and maybe I'll whistle while I'm doing it all.  Seriously?  It's just a word.

  • Member_of_the_Club
    Member_of_the_Club Member Posts: 3,646
    edited September 2008

    I'm with Beth here.  For the life of me I don't understand why Anne Shirley spends so much time on these long, venomous posts (filled with errors, lots and lots of errors) and inevitably veers off into personal attacks.  I'm not particularly young -- 46 -- and I've most definitely had cancer.  McCain is 72 years old and has had a deadly cancer known for late recurrences -- melanoma -- on his face, which is a sign of a more aggressive cancer (head and neck melanomas tend to be more serious) and you bet this is all relevant when his running mate is so obviously unqualified to be president that conservatives are now calling for her to withdraw from the race.  We aren't bigots to raise concerns about this.  

    I hate these political threads because they are so divisive.  We've all had cancer.  That doesn't entitle any of us to stand on a pedestal and act like we have all the answers. 

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Beth, Yes, it is just a word but since it was used in an attack on McCain by Obama, it's open season on his use of the world, incorrectly I will state again in both meaning and intent.  You are not multitasking.  The human brain is not capable of multitasking.  Chewing gum doesn't count.

    Member, This is the second or third time you have stated that my posts are full of errors and the second or third time I've asked you to point them out, and added that if you're correct, I will gladly retract or correct them. I don't believe I've made any, but please feel free to list any.  Specificity is good because I can reply to specifics, with specifics. But if you don't provide examples, then I hope everyone who reads my posts will assume that you're just blowing smoke because you don't like criticism of Obama.        

    The attacks on McCain's age and health are venomous, and with intention, I believe.  It makes sense on a political thread to attack a candidate's positions and his political words.  It's ugly to attack a candidate on his personal characteristics and his family, whether it's McCain or Obama, Palin or Biden, or Hillary. And on the Obama thread these attacks happen all the time. I don't go on that thread but I do read it and I thought the recent attack was clearly over the top, which is why I mentioned it, indirectly. It also occurs on the Republican thread but I don't get as many bricks throw at me when I dare to mention them, which I find interesting as in the past I always thought Republicans were fanatics and Democrats were reasoned and open-minded.  I've been caught out on that one, I guess.   

    I should also mention that the personal attacks on McCain began before he picked Palin, so using Palin as an excuse just doesn't wash.  

    Perhaps I'm a bit sensitive about age and health, since my older sister 72, who teaches full time at the City University, and who travels across the world lecturing on a Fulbright (England, Brazil, Japan, Spain, and more) despite a number of medical problems, is one of the most capable people I know, and probably can multitask with the best of them, maybe because she raised six children while working and studying fulltime.  I also have had many relatives (Irish skin) with melanomas and a number of skin cancers myself and we're all alive and well decades later.  So please stop killing off the man before his time or suggesting he has Alzheimers if he misspeaks.  Otherwise, what could be said about Biden?.  If you would concentrate on McCain's and Palin's positions, you'd find enough to keep you busy on a hundred threads.  So why this penchant for attacking the person? 

    Of course, I know everyone on this board has cancer; suggesting they might not was a rhetorical device.   I thought it interesting that since we know that cancer does not put an end to active, productive lives (and most of us probably resent other people implying that it does), that there are so many comments on the Obama thread about McCain's previous history with cancer, always with a negative spin and never a positive one. I would think that you would all admire the man, at least personally, for beating cancer so many times, and might even wonder if anything can kill him, considering his history as a prisoner of war.  But perhaps I carry liberalism to its extreme.  No one should ever acknowledge that there are other points of view, apparently!

      

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited September 2008

    Ummm...is this the POSITIVE Obama thread? Just checking...

  • sccruiser
    sccruiser Member Posts: 1,119
    edited September 2008

    I'd just like to say that I really enjoyed reading this thread. It has given me much to think about. I try to (and am not always successful) look at all sides of issues before I make a decision. I'm not going to debate whether one candidate can make decisions quickly or move slowly. What I see are the adjectives used to define each of the candidates, and in my opinion, all can easily be assigned to the other candidate depending on the contributor's opinion and/or to prove a point about either candidate.

    I probably will vote for Obama, and one reason that is moving me toward that decision is McCain's selection of Palin for his VP. I think it's natural for people (including myself) to carefully consider a vote for McCain not only because individuals think he is too old; but when he chose Palin, it was all over for me. The chance of a President not being able to fulfill the duties of his office due to some unforeseen event appears to be more of a reality to many people because Palin is totally unqualified to step into the role of President, let along VP.

    On the Democratic side, Obama has chosen a VP that I believe is more experienced and could easily step into the President's role. I don't like to think that I am prejudiced when it comes to ageism, but if I am, it's something I will need to work on! I look back and think of what happened to JFK, and LBJ stepping right in to govern. Biden seems to be an excellent choice for VP.

    The role of VP in this country has evolved into more than a figurehead. Our current policy of the Presidential candidates chosing his/her running mate means that the American people have very little say (other than to vote) in whom that individual should be. I don't like giving control to the choices of VP. I really believe that McCain's choice will cost him this election.

    And regarding McCain's bouts with cancer. I have had cancer also. I am in awe of someone in their 70s running for President. Every President I've watched govern in the past 50+ years has aged by the time their term(s) end(s). Look back at video of Bush in 2000 and compare to now, the change is very apparent. Personally, cancer has taken its toll on my body, and I do not have the stamina or endurance to do what I did almost 5 years ago. I now live with Truncal Lymphedema, so while I applaud those who have returned to the energy of their pre-cancer lives, mine has not been the case. This is my experience, and I'm sure there are others out there living with similar outcomes. Everyone is different. It may be that McCain's fight to live will continue well into his 90s, but I for one am not willing to risk Palin becoming President of our country, as there is just too much at stake.

    As far as learning as you go, I think we all do that in some way at all times in our life. I grew up believing and knowing that learning is lifelong. I think it happens in all walks of life. I believe it happens with any candidate elected to the highest office in this land, and I happen to think that maybe a younger candidate can adapt more quickly. Corporations in this country are notorious for gleaning the "old" (50+ years) because they cost too much money, and although they come with years of experience, the corporations higher the "fresh out of college" employee that comes with the latest and greatest ideas for less money. It appears that this country is beginning to want the same thing. There are term limits placed on state elected positions around the country. People seem to be saying, out with the old (ways of doing business & lobbyists) and in with the new (younger candidates with new visions and change. Just my opinion.

    Love the discussion here, and certainly not sure what the answers are to all our questions! 

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Thanks Grace for a thoughtful post, but one with which I partly disagree.  I don't believe McCain is too old at 72, and he appears to have more energy than I had in my 40's.  But then my sister, very much like McCain in energy level but not in views, has more energy than any of her children, her grandchildren, and her siblings.  She makes me tired to watch her.  And she has a serious blood disease, but knowing her I suspect she'll live until 100. It's all about the person and in 2008, 72 is still relatively young, and certainly below the life expectancy of the average male--and I don't think McCain is the average male, or I doubt he would have survived his prison experience.

    I don't believe the JFK example is a good one, particularly remembering that he had active Addison's disease in his early forties and also that he died by a bullet, not by disease. And then there was FDR--still in my view our greatest president, and he had polio when he was first elected, and I believe died from its complications.  But if you mean there's always the possibility that the president will die and the vice president will take over, I agree, and I also agree with your point about Palin.  But as I wrote in one of my posts yesterday, his choice of Palin "horrifies" me.  I even suggested that if by some wild chance I had persuaded anyone in a swing state to vote for Nader that she please rethink her position and vote for Obama.

    But the comments on the Obama thread about McCain's age and his health were not I think written to persuade undecided voters. Most, if not all, of the women who post on that thread are hardened Obama supporters (as is true of the women on the Republican thread for McCain), so in my view the remarks were unnecessary and hurtful to all the women on this board (me, for sure) who are close to McCain in age.  And the cancer knocks--those I didn't understand at all. Would any one on the Obama thread really have considered voting for McCain if he had selected Romney for his VP?  I honestly don't think so, so the age and health remarks seemed gratuitous, at least to me.  And as I said before, some of McCain's political positions and most of Palin's provide more than enough fodder to chastise them.    

    If Obama had made a speech in which he said that he would "multitask" every day in the White House for the American people, I would have winced at his use of the word but for sure I wouldn't have written about it here.  It was the way he used the term that bothered me.  The text was that McCain is not capable of dealing with more than one emergency at a time, and actually McCain, more than Obama, tries to deal with too many emergencies, and too quickly--in my view.  An example I gave was his rush to involve the U.S. in the Russia/Georgia crisis.  (And look what that wrought, Russia giving Chavez one billion towards the purchase of weapons.) It was actually Obama that was single focused, on the debates, with three days of layover in Florida to prepare.  BUT, it was the subtext that pissed me off. It suggested that McCain was this old guy who can't walk and talk at the same time.  If Obama, as advertised, is above the negative stuff, why didn't he just say he disagreed, and why.  And lately I'm sensitive to comments on age.  And it's even worse for women.  Older women are the most despised people on this planet; I'd like to think we're working towards change, and not buying into these perceptions.  Most studies I've read state that older workers are more productive than younger workers; and the reason for letting them go is not because younger workers bring more to the table; they're cheaper to hire.

  • saluki
    saluki Member Posts: 2,287
    edited September 2008

    Sarah Palin is having a disservice done to her by the McCain campaign....

    They are micro-managing her to a crazy degree......  I've seen a very different Palin on pre-vice presidential interviews on business channels--one who is very intelligent, confident and capable.  That was not the woman I saw last night.  I think she has been badly managed, scripted and its undermining her confidence.

    I think after the VP debate we'll get a more realistic impression and she will be given a more normal access to the press.

    The woman I saw on those previous interviews you would be underestimating........

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Susie--I hope you're right, because honestly the interview I saw was awful. Her language skills were terrible, and some of the things she said could have easily been a parody of her on Saturday Night Live.  It's possible that they've scared her to death and she just can't find her natural voice, but still. ... If I were McCain I'd find a way to get rid of her, and put someone with heavy economic experience in her place, particularly now.  (You know, of course, I won't be voting for him whatever he does, but I hate to see him go down in flames, particularly because of his past service to the country.) I know I'm strange but I hate to see people embarrassed, even in movies and books.  Perhaps it goes back to those childhood fears that some of us have that we've done something totally stupid in public and are mortally embarrassed.  And I'm really afraid this will happen to Palin in the debate with Biden.  McCain should have picked your other favorite, Bobby J. He would be a natural in both interviews and in debates.  I suspect he gives a good speech as well. And I did some investigation, and I don't believe he's a Creationist, just faking it, so he has some natural political abilities as well.

  • Pat634
    Pat634 Member Posts: 271
    edited October 2010

    Sorry, but after watching two planes fly into the Sears Towers this is one voter who will NEVER put a Muslim in the white house!

  • Bugs
    Bugs Member Posts: 1,719
    edited September 2008

    I've stayed away from all these political threads on this forum...but seriously ladies...do we need ANOTHER thread on politics?  Don't you have enough of them to argue on?  Sorry...I guess this is why I stay over at the Stage III and mets forum.  Oh..well...except for the Pink isn't for Pepto thread. :)

  • sccruiser
    sccruiser Member Posts: 1,119
    edited September 2008

    What muslim is running for president? Do you have proof that McCain or Obama is/was muslim?

    Just another lie someone is spreading in the internet. Networks, whether conservative or liberal have already informed the public that the idea of a candidate being a muslim is untrue, false rumor.

    Can we stick with the truth, please. 

  • saluki
    saluki Member Posts: 2,287
    edited September 2008

    Anneshirley

    Either she'll sink or swim in the debate---- I think she'll grow and as Bill says --she has good instincts--- (if she's not overly managed).  We'll have to see.   I'd rather see her sit across a table from Bob Shaeffer and then, I think, we would get a more realistic idea of how she handles herself.

    I'm sure Bobby was McCain's first pick (and you are right -he gives a very good speech)--;But, he really did want to stay in Louisiana and finish what he started --he made that clear back in May......The experience of a few extra years as Governor will help season him.----I'm sure if McCain wins you still will be looking at a Republican ticket of Palin/Jindal or Jindal/Palin in 2012. (which I am sure is what Bill and Hillary would like)

  • mke
    mke Member Posts: 584
    edited September 2008

    I thought the Sears tower was in Chicago and there was only one and it was still in good shape. But then I have chemo brain.

  • Member_of_the_Club
    Member_of_the_Club Member Posts: 3,646
    edited September 2008

    1.  All candidates prep for debates, including John McCain, as they should.  Hillary Clinton spent an enormous time prepping for debates and it showed, she was a much better debater than Obama.

    2. McCain requested a postponement of the debate until the night of the vice presidential debate.  Part of what is driving him is the need to avoid Sarah Palin debating.  He caved because the public would never have forgiven him.

    3.  McCain never suspended his campaign.  He continued to make appearance, air commercials, his campaign workers kept going full speed ahead.

     4.  McCain contributed nothing to the bailout negotiations.  This is his MO -- he is known for screwing up the negotiations of other members of congress and not contributing at all. I've heard this from Republicans, that all he does is show up at the last minute and screw things up.

    5. Obama never said he would bomb Pakistan without their permission.  He said that if there was actionable intelligence that Bin Laden was in Pakistan he would first bring it to the attention of the Pakistan government and would only act if they refused to.  frankly, I don't think any administration would behave differently, so i don't understand why this is even controversial.  Obama did have the foresight to say we should not put all our influence in the Musharaf basket, as the Bush administration has done.  As usual, he was right.

    6.  Nader actively campaigned in swing states in 2000 so that Gore would lose.  He did this on purpose.  That is why many of his high level supporters broke with him very publicly after the 2000 election.  He has a huge ego and consistently destroys legislation that consumer rights advocates in Washington work hard for.  That is the dirty secret of progressive advocacy groups: Nader is a do-nothing spoiler.  Plus his talk about how Obama isn't ghetto enough doesn't sit well with me.

    Thats this thread alone. 

  • Pat634
    Pat634 Member Posts: 271
    edited October 2010

    Well If I am in error I would rather err on the side of my country's safety and either vote for McCain or not vote at all. Besides, this is a board for breast cancer issues and hot topics like religion and politics should probably be avoided.

  • carolsd
    carolsd Member Posts: 358
    edited September 2008

    anneshirley,

    I don't usually get involved in political posts because they are so divisive. But I couldn't help but notice:

    Perhaps I'm a bit sensitive about age and health, since my older sister 72, who teaches full time at the City University, and who travels across the world lecturing on a Fulbright (England, Brazil, Japan, Spain, and more) despite a number of medical problems, is one of the most capable people I know, and probably can multitask with the best of them, maybe because she raised six children while working and studying fulltime. 

    After taking others to task for the casual use of "multitask" instead of its formal computer use, I am astonished you would use it to describe your sister (who I'm sure is a remarkable individual). It smacks of duality.

    I was comfortable with McCain as president, though I preferred Obama. That is, until McCain picked Palin as his VP. It has nothing to do with his age or medical conditions. Any VP is a "heartbeat" away from being president, including Biden. I am not at all comfortable with Sarah Palin as my president. She doesn't impress me at all in the interviews I've seen.

    I got this email today:

    If You were The Boss... which team would you hire?

    With America facing historic debt, multiple war fronts, stumbling health care, a weakened dollar, all-time high prison population, skyrocketing Federal spending, mortgage crises, bank foreclosures, etc. etc., this is an unusually critical election year.

    Let's look at the educational background of the candidates and see what they bring to the job:

    Obama:
    Occidental College - Two years.
    Columbia University - B.A. political science with a specialization in international relations.
    Harvard - Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude

    & Biden:
    University of Delaware - B.A. in history and B.A. in political science.
    Syracuse University College of Law - Juris Doctor (J.D.)

    vs.

    McCain:
    United States Naval Academy - Class rank 894 out of 899 (meaning that, like George Bush, McCain was at the bottom of his class)

    Palin
    :
    Hawaii Pacific University - 1 semester
    North Idaho College - 2 semesters - general study
    University of Idaho - 2 semesters - journalism
    Matanuska-Susitna College - 1 semester
    University of Idaho - 3 semesters - B.A. in journalism

    Now, which team are you going to hire to lead the most influential nation in the world?

    Yeah, yeah I know. Education isn't everything. But anneshirley, you strike me as someone who values education in particular. How do these stats make you feel?

    Anyway, I hope the topic stays gracious and fair. I hate to see mud-slinging.

  • Paulette531
    Paulette531 Member Posts: 738
    edited September 2008

    Carol...I value education but there is such thing as an educated fool. I think I value experience more so than education, especially when it comes to leading our country. Education is great but you can only learn so much from books then you better have some practical OJT to apply your learned concepts or they account for naught.

  • sccruiser
    sccruiser Member Posts: 1,119
    edited September 2008

    Wow, I'm impressed McCain made it as far as he has. Just demonstrates how this country has changed in the last 50-60 years. A high school education could get you a job in the mailroom in a large corporation and you were able to work your way up to the President if you worked hard and kept your eye on the prize. Doesn't happen anymore.

    I was quite surprised when I saw that McCain's secondary education consisted of just the US Naval Academy. Doesn't seem like that would translate well to attaining the highest job in the land, but hey, go for him to go for it! can't blame a guy for trying. I've worked in a college where the faculty must have at least a Masters Degree, and all Administrators are expected to come with a PhD--they rarely get an interview if they don't have the doctorate! And we only require the President and VP of the US to have basically a bachelor degree. Something wrong with this picture. So Palin's okay because she has the education and will get OJT as a Vice President. Can the country pay her as an intern?

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Member, to your post, which I believe is suggesting that the numbered items are errors that were in my post.

    To (1).  Where did I say that McCain didn't prepare for the debates.  I said, specifically, that McCain was preparing at the Morgan Library--remember I'm always specific, which is why my posts are so long. I think they should prepare and I just read again that Obama had made elaborate plans to prep for the debate over a thiree-day period. The point in my post was that Obama appeared to be doing greater preparation, so perhaps he was the one who had problems changing focus.  I agree, Hillary beat Obama in every single debate, yet he's the nominee.  Says a lot about the point of these debates.  None it appears.  Obama also prepared for his debates with Hillary; he just wasn't that good.

    To (2) I never discussed this anywhere that I can remember, so why bring it up? And neither of us can know why he caved if you choose to use that word, or that the public would never forgive him.  That's a conjecture on your part, which is fine, but it has nothing to do with my post that answered the one that said "I had made up my mind long ago to dislike Obama."  I wanted to explain in that post that I didn't willy nilly decide to dislike Obama and I listed the reasons for my dislike and its evolution--the main one still being that he called his grandmother racist in public for political purposes. Very ugly stuff in my view!

    To (3) Whether or not McCain continued to campaign is neither hear nor there.  I didn't say he did or didn't, nor do I care.  I said it was important for both candidates to go to Washington to understand what was going down, as it would be up to one of them to carry out the terms of the bailout.  Still makes good sense to me. 

    To (4) Whether or not McCain contributed to the bailout negotiations does not in any way make anything that I wrote in error, which was your claim in your earlier post.  And I guess we'll have to take your word for it (a very enthusiastic Obama supporter) that Congressional Republicans are coming to you to trash McCain! 

    "All he does" seems a bit excessive since he is the author of a fair amount of legislation and also the author of much legislation that involved both parties. What I did read is that the Democrats said he contributed nothing to the bailout discussions, which, of course, they would.   We're in the midst of a political campaign.

    Also I'm not a McCain apologist and never have been; I just hate the lies that come out of both camps and particularly hate hearing that Obama is never negative, when he is negative, either directly (not that often) or through his surrogates (all the time).  I prefer honesty in my candidates, which is why I really don't have one, since we all agree that Nader doesn't count.

    To (4) We disagree here, a lot!  I said that he said he would bomb Pakistan (and he did), and what right, in God's or in my universe since I don't believe in God, gives him such a right? I certainly remember that statement as I stood up and started screaming at the TV when he said it.  (My husband will sign an affidavit to that effect.) From what I've read I believe McCain pointed this out as well in tonight's debate.  I didn't watch, as I have already decided to vote for Nader, and I think they both pander to their audience and they both have vebal tics that annoy me a lot:  McCain's "my dear friends," and Obama's "umh's." 

    To (5) Did I mention Nader in the post you said was full of errors? I just looked at it again, and I can't find any mention of him whatsoever.  Whether what Nader says sits well with you is totally irrelevant to your statement that my post was full of errors.  So far, you haven't mentioned one error, just what you think I said between the lines.  I write so much that I would think it not necessary for you to read between lines.  Why not just read the lines.  I pretty much say what I mean.

    Nader a do-nothing spoiler!  He is the name, heart, and soul of consumer advocacy and has probably done more for the American consumer than any president in our time. Of course, he has a big ego.  It takes a huge ego for a loner to take on corporate America.  I wish it had  been even larger, so he might have prevented the current ecnomic fiasco! Again, what does that have to do with this thread?

    Now that we know what doesn't sit well with you, let me say what doesn't sit well with me.  I enjoy political debate and contribute a lot to the political posts.  I am well read on politics and I love to discuss the real stuff but not many people on these boards favor those types of discussion.   By real stuff I mean, for example, the Russia/Georgia crisis and the question of whether the United States is responsible in part for Russia's flirtation with Chavez. So to keep my feet in, I often veer off into discussing the candidates and things that have been said on both sides which I believe to be false.  I may hit Obama harder at times but that's because I expect more from him, since he's closer to my political views than McCain.  If I'm not sure of my facts, I check them, but I write so much, and so quickly, that I probably do make mistakes.  And if I do, I have no problem amending what I said if the mistake is pointed out to me.  You have more than once said my posts are full of errors and when I ask you to list the errors, you don't respond or you respond as above, citing things I didn't say as errors.   I believe strongly in truth and it irritates me if someone says or suggests I'm a liar, directly or obliquely. So in the future can you please quote what I said and then indicate where it was wrong.  I can't find that I said any of the things you're citing as my errors. Thanks.  

    Carol--but I used the word "multitask" when writing about my sister to be ironic. And I know that people use the word all the time to refer to human activity.  I believe I explained why it irritated me so much when Obama used it--because I thought it was snide.  

    Also, you neglect to mention Biden's grades when you mention McCain's. Biden was also near the bottom of his class, not the top.  And Obama has, as I understand it, refused to give access to his records.  I assume in Harvard he had high grades though.  Most people get A's or B's at graduate schools, and Harvard has a reputation for giving all its students high grades, in both its undergraduate and graduate schools.  There's been some objection to that in the field of education but as far as I know it hasn't yet changed.  But I'm not sure of your point?  I am not voting for McCain or Palin, but not because of their grades. I don't agree with their political positions.  Nader, by the way, had higher grades than any of them, at Princeton and later at Harvard Law, so if that's the criteria we should all vote for him!   

    Patrice--Obama is not a Muslim; and if he were why would it matter?  Hitler was a Christian so based on your logic, shouldn't you eschew voting for Christians?  I won't give any more examples since it probably wouldn't make a difference to you. 

    Bugs--With all due respect, if you don't like political threads, this or any of the others, you don't have to read them.  Those of us who post on them, enjoy them or we would find something else to do with our time.  And it may seem that we're fighting, but many of us also enjoy corresponding in PM's in a much friendlier fashion with lots of the women with whom we disagree in our threads.  We're a lot like the politicians we love to hate, who finish bad mouthing the guy in the next chair and then go with hm or her for lunch.  A lot of it is just gamesmanship.

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Grace, McCain attended flight school after he graduated and then was shot down and spent five years in a Vietnam prison camp. I suspect he learned a lot there.  Also, he attended the National War College, which is a very difficult school to get into, and very prestigious.  The latter was the educational experience that had the most affect on him in later life.  

    I suppose we could have all the candidates go on Jeopardy and the one left standing gets the presidency, or if he or she prefers leave with the money.  I'd take the latter. Or perhaps we could have them all sit for a test--that would work for me.  I'd love to see everyone in the U.S. who wants to be president sit for a test and the winner assume office, but I doubt anyone else here would agree with me. 

    Abraham Lincoln would never have been our president if we were looking for educational credentials as the criteria for assuming the presidency.  And Truman wouldn't have made it either.  I don't believe Eisenhower had advanced degrees, and I suspect there's lots of people out there who would like to prohibit all law school graduates from the WH.  Aren't lawyers the most hated of our professional class? yet so many of them run for national office.   And then there's Teddy who got kicked out of Harvard for cheating, and Biden who didn't get kicked out for cheating, but probably should have. 

    There is no educational requirement for someone to become president, just age and citizenship requirements, and I agree with that. If we start asking for degrees, then we could start asking for certain types of degrees, and from certain colleges.  The result would be, as it has been too often, that only children of the high and mighty can aspire to be president and I know from your writing that you wouldn't want that.

    Added by editing: The aspect of McCain's education that I find most interesting is that McCain didn't want to go to the naval academy--he went because his father and grandfather had gone there and it was expected of him.  He loved to read and actually wanted a liberal education.  If I were to make any demands regarding educational credentials, mine would be that the candidate have had a liberal education (I mean liberal in the sense of an emphasis on literature and philosopy versus a technical or engineering degree.)

  • AnnNYC
    AnnNYC Member Posts: 4,484
    edited September 2008

    Speaking of people who have cancer and why they might not support McCain: McCain's plan to tax benefits (for the first time EVER) terrifies me.  It will push me over (and off) the ledge financially.  Even if that were the only reason, it would be enough for me to reject him.

    But IMO, it's just one of a hundred frightening things about a McCain presidency.

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    I agree Ann of New York, McCain's health care plan sucks.  I can't imagine he thought it through, and for sure a Democratic Congress would never agree  to it.  But with this bailout, I doubt that any health care changes  will happen any time soon.  And that I do regret, very much.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited September 2008

    Anneshirley, thank you SO much for letting ME know that humans can't multitask.  I was writing on the <------------------ other thread (repub) that I was cooking something and it took me longer because I can't multitask.  I feel so much better now. LOL  I believe you visited us, right, about Italian food?

    Kerry didn't do well in undergrad.  Obama won't release his transcripts from Columbia.  Why? 

    I must be the only person on this board without a higher education.  Well, at least I'm not an elitist.  On top of that, my brain is much slower than it used to be, and my energy as gone downhill.  McCain could run circles around me.  I was watching him (via TV) walking..skipping..down the stairs.  I take them rather slowly.  His knees must not hurt. And his balance must be good.

    I find it very annoying to hear "one hearbeat away" time and time again.  And, BTW, I did not hear him one time say "my friend" during the debate.

    I have nothing of substance to add.  I just wanted to peek in.  You know..curiosity.

    Shirley

  • pinoideae
    pinoideae Member Posts: 1,271
    edited September 2008

    The Disadvantages of
    an Elite Education

    Our best universities have forgotten
    that the reason they exist is to make
    minds, not careers

    By William Deresiewicz


    It didn't dawn on me that there might be a few holes in my education until I was about 35. I'd just bought a house, the pipes needed fixing, and the plumber was standing in my kitchen. There he was, a short, beefy guy with a goatee and a Red Sox cap and a thick Boston accent, and I suddenly learned that I didn't have the slightest idea what to say to someone like him. So alien was his experience to me, so unguessable his values, so mysterious his very language, that I couldn't succeed in engaging him in a few minutes of small talk before he got down to work. Fourteen years of higher education and a handful of Ivy League degrees, and there I was, stiff and stupid, struck dumb by my own dumbness. "Ivy retardation," a friend of mine calls this. I could carry on conversations with people from other countries, in other languages, but I couldn't talk to the man who was standing in my own house.

    It's not surprising that it took me so long to discover the extent of my miseducation, because the last thing an elite education will teach you is its own inadequacy. As two dozen years at Yale and Columbia have shown me, elite colleges relentlessly encourage their students to flatter themselves for being there, and for what being there can do for them. The advantages of an elite education are indeed undeniable. You learn to think, at least in certain ways, and you make the contacts needed to launch yourself into a life rich in all of society's most cherished rewards. To consider that while some opportunities are being created, others are being cancelled and that while some abilities are being developed, others are being crippled is, within this context, not only outrageous, but inconceivable.

    I'm not talking about curricula or the culture wars, the closing or opening of the American mind, political correctness, canon formation, or what have you. I'm talking about the whole system in which these skirmishes play out. Not just the Ivy League and its peer institutions, but also the mechanisms that get you there in the first place: the private and affluent public "feeder" schools, the ever-growing parastructure of tutors and test-prep courses and enrichment programs, the whole admissions frenzy and everything that leads up to and away from it. The message, as always, is the medium. Before, after, and around the elite college classroom, a constellation of values is ceaselessly inculcated. As globalization sharpens economic insecurity, we are increasingly committing ourselves-as students, as parents, as a society-to a vast apparatus of educational advantage. With so many resources devoted to the business of elite academics and so many people scrambling for the limited space at the top of the ladder, it is worth asking what exactly it is you get in the end-what it is we all get, because the elite students of today, as their institutions never tire of reminding them, are the leaders of tomorrow.



    The first disadvantage of an elite education, as I learned in my kitchen that day, is that it makes you incapable of talking to people who aren't like you. Elite schools pride themselves on their diversity, but that diversity is almost entirely a matter of ethnicity and race. With respect to class, these schools are largely-indeed increasingly-homogeneous. Visit any elite campus in our great nation and you can thrill to the heartwarming spectacle of the children of white businesspeople and professionals studying and playing alongside the children of black, Asian, and Latino businesspeople and professionals. At the same time, because these schools tend to cultivate liberal attitudes, they leave their students in the paradoxical position of wanting to advocate on behalf of the working class while being unable to hold a simple conversation with anyone in it. Witness the last two Democratic presidential nominees, Al Gore and John Kerry: one each from Harvard and Yale, both earnest, decent, intelligent men, both utterly incapable of communicating with the larger electorate.

    But it isn't just a matter of class. My education taught me to believe that people who didn't go to an Ivy League or equivalent school weren't worth talking to, regardless of their class. I was given the unmistakable message that such people were beneath me. We were "the best and the brightest," as these places love to say, and everyone else was, well, something else: less good, less bright. I learned to give that little nod of understanding, that slightly sympathetic "Oh," when people told me they went to a less prestigious college. (If I'd gone to Harvard, I would have learned to say "in Boston" when I was asked where I went to school-the Cambridge version of noblesse oblige.) I never learned that there are smart people who don't go to elite colleges, often precisely for reasons of class. I never learned that there are smart people who don't go to college at all.

    I also never learned that there are smart people who aren't "smart." The existence of multiple forms of intelligence has become a commonplace, but however much elite universities like to sprinkle their incoming classes with a few actors or violinists, they select for and develop one form of intelligence: the analytic. While this is broadly true of all universities, elite schools, precisely because their students (and faculty, and administrators) possess this one form of intelligence to such a high degree, are more apt to ignore the value of others. One naturally prizes what one most possesses and what most makes for one's advantages. But social intelligence and emotional intelligence and creative ability, to name just three other forms, are not distributed preferentially among the educational elite. The "best" are the brightest only in one narrow sense. One needs to wander away from the educational elite to begin to discover this.

    What about people who aren't bright in any sense? I have a friend who went to an Ivy League college after graduating from a typically mediocre public high school. One of the values of going to such a school, she once said, is that it teaches you to relate to stupid people. Some people are smart in the elite-college way, some are smart in other ways, and some aren't smart at all. It should be embarrassing not to know how to talk to any of them, if only because talking to people is the only real way of knowing them. Elite institutions are supposed to provide a humanistic education, but the first principle of humanism is Terence's: "nothing human is alien to me." The first disadvantage of an elite education is how very much of the human it alienates you from.



    The second disadvantage, implicit in what I've been saying, is that an elite education inculcates a false sense of self-worth. Getting to an elite college, being at an elite college, and going on from an elite college-all involve numerical rankings: SAT, GPA, GRE. You learn to think of yourself in terms of those numbers. They come to signify not only your fate, but your identity; not only your identity, but your value. It's been said that what those tests really measure is your ability to take tests, but even if they measure something real, it is only a small slice of the real. The problem begins when students are encouraged to forget this truth, when academic excellence becomes excellence in some absolute sense, when "better at X" becomes simply "better."

    There is nothing wrong with taking pride in one's intellect or knowledge. There is something wrong with the smugness and self-congratulation that elite schools connive at from the moment the fat envelopes come in the mail. From orientation to graduation, the message is implicit in every tone of voice and tilt of the head, every old-school tradition, every article in the student paper, every speech from the dean. The message is: You have arrived. Welcome to the club. And the corollary is equally clear: You deserve everything your presence here is going to enable you to get. When people say that students at elite schools have a strong sense of entitlement, they mean that those students think they deserve more than other people because their sat scores are higher.

    At Yale, and no doubt at other places, the message is reinforced in embarrassingly literal terms. The physical form of the university-its quads and residential colleges, with their Gothic stone façades and wrought-iron portals-is constituted by the locked gate set into the encircling wall. Everyone carries around an ID card that determines which gates they can enter. The gate, in other words, is a kind of governing metaphor-because the social form of the university, as is true of every elite school, is constituted the same way. Elite colleges are walled domains guarded by locked gates, with admission granted only to the elect. The aptitude with which students absorb this lesson is demonstrated by the avidity with which they erect still more gates within those gates, special realms of ever-greater exclusivity-at Yale, the famous secret societies, or as they should probably be called, the open-secret societies, since true secrecy would defeat their purpose. There's no point in excluding people unless they know they've been excluded.

    One of the great errors of an elite education, then, is that it teaches you to think that measures of intelligence and academic achievement are measures of value in some moral or metaphysical sense. But they're not. Graduates of elite schools are not more valuable than stupid people, or talentless people, or even lazy people. Their pain does not hurt more. Their souls do not weigh more. If I were religious, I would say, God does not love them more. The political implications should be clear. As John Ruskin told an older elite, grabbing what you can get isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists. "Work must always be," Ruskin says, "and captains of work must always be....[But] there is a wide difference between being captains...of work, and taking the profits of it."



    The political implications don't stop there. An elite education not only ushers you into the upper classes; it trains you for the life you will lead once you get there. I didn't understand this until I began comparing my experience, and even more, my students' experience, with the experience of a friend of mine who went to Cleveland State. There are due dates and attendance requirements at places like Yale, but no one takes them very seriously. Extensions are available for the asking; threats to deduct credit for missed classes are rarely, if ever, carried out. In other words, students at places like Yale get an endless string of second chances. Not so at places like Cleveland State. My friend once got a D in a class in which she'd been running an A because she was coming off a waitressing shift and had to hand in her term paper an hour late.

    That may be an extreme example, but it is unthinkable at an elite school. Just as unthinkably, she had no one to appeal to. Students at places like Cleveland State, unlike those at places like Yale, don't have a platoon of advisers and tutors and deans to write out excuses for late work, give them extra help when they need it, pick them up when they fall down. They get their education wholesale, from an indifferent bureaucracy; it's not handed to them in individually wrapped packages by smiling clerks. There are few, if any, opportunities for the kind of contacts I saw my students get routinely-classes with visiting power brokers, dinners with foreign dignitaries. There are also few, if any, of the kind of special funds that, at places like Yale, are available in profusion: travel stipends, research fellowships, performance grants. Each year, my department at Yale awards dozens of cash prizes for everything from freshman essays to senior projects. This year, those awards came to more than $90,000-in just one department.

    Students at places like Cleveland State also don't get A-'s just for doing the work. There's been a lot of handwringing lately over grade inflation, and it is a scandal, but the most scandalous thing about it is how uneven it's been. Forty years ago, the average GPA at both public and private universities was about 2.6, still close to the traditional B-/C+ curve. Since then, it's gone up everywhere, but not by anything like the same amount. The average gpa at public universities is now about 3.0, a B; at private universities it's about 3.3, just short of a B+. And at most Ivy League schools, it's closer to 3.4. But there are always students who don't do the work, or who are taking a class far outside their field (for fun or to fulfill a requirement), or who aren't up to standard to begin with (athletes, legacies). At a school like Yale, students who come to class and work hard expect nothing less than an A-. And most of the time, they get it.

    In short, the way students are treated in college trains them for the social position they will occupy once they get out. At schools like Cleveland State, they're being trained for positions somewhere in the middle of the class system, in the depths of one bureaucracy or another. They're being conditioned for lives with few second chances, no extensions, little support, narrow opportunity-lives of subordination, supervision, and control, lives of deadlines, not guidelines. At places like Yale, of course, it's the reverse. The elite like to think of themselves as belonging to a meritocracy, but that's true only up to a point. Getting through the gate is very difficult, but once you're in, there's almost nothing you can do to get kicked out. Not the most abject academic failure, not the most heinous act of plagiarism, not even threatening a fellow student with bodily harm-I've heard of all three-will get you expelled. The feeling is that, by gosh, it just wouldn't be fair-in other words, the self-protectiveness of the old-boy network, even if it now includes girls. Elite schools nurture excellence, but they also nurture what a former Yale graduate student I know calls "entitled mediocrity." A is the mark of excellence; A- is the mark of entitled mediocrity. It's another one of those metaphors, not so much a grade as a promise. It means, don't worry, we'll take care of you. You may not be all that good, but you're good enough.

    Here, too, college reflects the way things work in the adult world (unless it's the other way around). For the elite, there's always another extension-a bailout, a pardon, a stint in rehab-always plenty of contacts and special stipends-the country club, the conference, the year-end bonus, the dividend. If Al Gore and John Kerry represent one of the characteristic products of an elite education, George W. Bush represents another. It's no coincidence that our current president, the apotheosis of entitled mediocrity, went to Yale. Entitled mediocrity is indeed the operating principle of his administration, but as Enron and WorldCom and the other scandals of the dot-com meltdown demonstrated, it's also the operating principle of corporate America. The fat salaries paid to underperforming CEOs are an adult version of the A-. Anyone who remembers the injured sanctimony with which Kenneth Lay greeted the notion that he should be held accountable for his actions will understand the mentality in question-the belief that once you're in the club, you've got a God-given right to stay in the club. But you don't need to remember Ken Lay, because the whole dynamic played out again last year in the case of Scooter Libby, another Yale man.



    If one of the disadvantages of an elite education is the temptation it offers to mediocrity, another is the temptation it offers to security. When parents explain why they work so hard to give their children the best possible education, they invariably say it is because of the opportunities it opens up. But what of the opportunities it shuts down? An elite education gives you the chance to be rich-which is, after all, what we're talking about-but it takes away the chance not to be. Yet the opportunity not to be rich is one of the greatest opportunities with which young Americans have been blessed. We live in a society that is itself so wealthy that it can afford to provide a decent living to whole classes of people who in other countries exist (or in earlier times existed) on the brink of poverty or, at least, of indignity. You can live comfortably in the United States as a schoolteacher, or a community organizer, or a civil rights lawyer, or an artist-that is, by any reasonable definition of comfort. You have to live in an ordinary house instead of an apartment in Manhattan or a mansion in L.A.; you have to drive a Honda instead of a BMW or a Hummer; you have to vacation in Florida instead of Barbados or Paris, but what are such losses when set against the opportunity to do work you believe in, work you're suited for, work you love, every day of your life?

    Yet it is precisely that opportunity that an elite education takes away. How can I be a schoolteacher-wouldn't that be a waste of my expensive education? Wouldn't I be squandering the opportunities my parents worked so hard to provide? What will my friends think? How will I face my classmates at our 20th reunion, when they're all rich lawyers or important people in New York? And the question that lies behind all these: Isn't it beneath me? So a whole universe of possibility closes, and you miss your true calling.

    This is not to say that students from elite colleges never pursue a riskier or less lucrative course after graduation, but even when they do, they tend to give up more quickly than others. (Let's not even talk about the possibility of kids from privileged backgrounds not going to college at all, or delaying matriculation for several years, because however appropriate such choices might sometimes be, our rigid educational mentality places them outside the universe of possibility-the reason so many kids go sleepwalking off to college with no idea what they're doing there.) This doesn't seem to make sense, especially since students from elite schools tend to graduate with less debt and are more likely to be able to float by on family money for a while. I wasn't aware of the phenomenon myself until I heard about it from a couple of graduate students in my department, one from Yale, one from Harvard. They were talking about trying to write poetry, how friends of theirs from college called it quits within a year or two while people they know from less prestigious schools are still at it. Why should this be? Because students from elite schools expect success, and expect it now. They have, by definition, never experienced anything else, and their sense of self has been built around their ability to succeed. The idea of not being successful terrifies them, disorients them, defeats them. They've been driven their whole lives by a fear of failure-often, in the first instance, by their parents' fear of failure. The first time I blew a test, I walked out of the room feeling like I no longer knew who I was. The second time, it was easier; I had started to learn that failure isn't the end of the world.



    But if you're afraid to fail, you're afraid to take risks, which begins to explain the final and most damning disadvantage of an elite education: that it is profoundly anti-intellectual. This will seem counterintuitive. Aren't kids at elite schools the smartest ones around, at least in the narrow academic sense? Don't they work harder than anyone else-indeed, harder than any previous generation? They are. They do. But being an intellectual is not the same as being smart. Being an intellectual means more than doing your homework.

    If so few kids come to college understanding this, it is no wonder. They are products of a system that rarely asked them to think about something bigger than the next assignment. The system forgot to teach them, along the way to the prestige admissions and the lucrative jobs, that the most important achievements can't be measured by a letter or a number or a name. It forgot that the true purpose of education is to make minds, not careers.

    Being an intellectual means, first of all, being passionate about ideas-and not just for the duration of a semester, for the sake of pleasing the teacher, or for getting a good grade. A friend who teaches at the University of Connecticut once complained to me that his students don't think for themselves. Well, I said, Yale students think for themselves, but only because they know we want them to. I've had many wonderful students at Yale and Columbia, bright, thoughtful, creative kids whom it's been a pleasure to talk with and learn from. But most of them have seemed content to color within the lines that their education had marked out for them. Only a small minority have seen their education as part of a larger intellectual journey, have approached the work of the mind with a pilgrim soul. These few have tended to feel like freaks, not least because they get so little support from the university itself. Places like Yale, as one of them put it to me, are not conducive to searchers.

    Places like Yale are simply not set up to help students ask the big questions. I don't think there ever was a golden age of intellectualism in the American university, but in the 19th century students might at least have had a chance to hear such questions raised in chapel or in the literary societies and debating clubs that flourished on campus. Throughout much of the 20th century, with the growth of the humanistic ideal in American colleges, students might have encountered the big questions in the classrooms of professors possessed of a strong sense of pedagogic mission. Teachers like that still exist in this country, but the increasingly dire exigencies of academic professionalization have made them all but extinct at elite universities. Professors at top research institutions are valued exclusively for the quality of their scholarly work; time spent on teaching is time lost. If students want a conversion experience, they're better off at a liberal arts college.

    When elite universities boast that they teach their students how to think, they mean that they teach them the analytic and rhetorical skills necessary for success in law or medicine or science or business. But a humanistic education is supposed to mean something more than that, as universities still dimly feel. So when students get to college, they hear a couple of speeches telling them to ask the big questions, and when they graduate, they hear a couple more speeches telling them to ask the big questions. And in between, they spend four years taking courses that train them to ask the little questions-specialized courses, taught by specialized professors, aimed at specialized students. Although the notion of breadth is implicit in the very idea of a liberal arts education, the admissions process increasingly selects for kids who have already begun to think of themselves in specialized terms-the junior journalist, the budding astronomer, the language prodigy. We are slouching, even at elite schools, toward a glorified form of vocational training.

    Indeed, that seems to be exactly what those schools want. There's a reason elite schools speak of training leaders, not thinkers-holders of power, not its critics. An independent mind is independent of all allegiances, and elite schools, which get a large percentage of their budget from alumni giving, are strongly invested in fostering institutional loyalty. As another friend, a third-generation Yalie, says, the purpose of Yale College is to manufacture Yale alumni. Of course, for the system to work, those alumni need money. At Yale, the long-term drift of students away from majors in the humanities and basic sciences toward more practical ones like computer science and economics has been abetted by administrative indifference. The college career office has little to say to students not interested in law, medicine, or business, and elite universities are not going to do anything to discourage the large percentage of their graduates who take their degrees to Wall Street. In fact, they're showing them the way. The liberal arts university is becoming the corporate university, its center of gravity shifting to technical fields where scholarly expertise can be parlayed into lucrative business opportunities.

    It's no wonder that the few students who are passionate about ideas find themselves feeling isolated and confused. I was talking with one of them last year about his interest in the German Romantic idea of bildung, the upbuilding of the soul. But, he said-he was a senior at the time-it's hard to build your soul when everyone around you is trying to sell theirs.

    Yet there is a dimension of the intellectual life that lies above the passion for ideas, though so thoroughly has our culture been sanitized of it that it is hardly surprising if it was beyond the reach of even my most alert students. Since the idea of the intellectual emerged in the 18th century, it has had, at its core, a commitment to social transformation. Being an intellectual means thinking your way toward a vision of the good society and then trying to realize that vision by speaking truth to power. It means going into spiritual exile. It means foreswearing your allegiance, in lonely freedom, to God, to country, and to Yale. It takes more than just intellect; it takes imagination and courage. "I am not afraid to make a mistake," Stephen Dedalus says, "even a great mistake, a lifelong mistake, and perhaps as long as eternity, too."



    Being an intellectual begins with thinking your way outside of your assumptions and the system that enforces them. But students who get into elite schools are precisely the ones who have best learned to work within the system, so it's almost impossible for them to see outside it, to see that it's even there. Long before they got to college, they turned themselves into world-class hoop-jumpers and teacher-pleasers, getting A's in every class no matter how boring they found the teacher or how pointless the subject, racking up eight or 10 extracurricular activities no matter what else they wanted to do with their time. Paradoxically, the situation may be better at second-tier schools and, in particular, again, at liberal arts colleges than at the most prestigious universities. Some students end up at second-tier schools because they're exactly like students at Harvard or Yale, only less gifted or driven. But others end up there because they have a more independent spirit. They didn't get straight A's because they couldn't be bothered to give everything in every class. They concentrated on the ones that meant the most to them or on a single strong extracurricular passion or on projects that had nothing to do with school or even with looking good on a college application. Maybe they just sat in their room, reading a lot and writing in their journal. These are the kinds of kids who are likely, once they get to college, to be more interested in the human spirit than in school spirit, and to think about leaving college bearing questions, not resumés.

    I've been struck, during my time at Yale, by how similar everyone looks. You hardly see any hippies or punks or art-school types, and at a college that was known in the '80s as the Gay Ivy, few out lesbians and no gender queers. The geeks don't look all that geeky; the fashionable kids go in for understated elegance. Thirty-two flavors, all of them vanilla. The most elite schools have become places of a narrow and suffocating normalcy. Everyone feels pressure to maintain the kind of appearance-and affect-that go with achievement. (Dress for success, medicate for success.) I know from long experience as an adviser that not every Yale student is appropriate and well-adjusted, which is exactly why it worries me that so many of them act that way. The tyranny of the normal must be very heavy in their lives. One consequence is that those who can't get with the program (and they tend to be students from poorer backgrounds) often polarize in the opposite direction, flying off into extremes of disaffection and self-destruction. But another consequence has to do with the large majority who can get with the program.

    I taught a class several years ago on the literature of friendship. One day we were discussing Virginia Woolf's novel The Waves, which follows a group of friends from childhood to middle age. In high school, one of them falls in love with another boy. He thinks, "To whom can I expose the urgency of my own passion?...There is nobody-here among these grey arches, and moaning pigeons, and cheerful games and tradition and emulation, all so skilfully organised to prevent feeling alone." A pretty good description of an elite college campus, including the part about never being allowed to feel alone. What did my students think of this, I wanted to know? What does it mean to go to school at a place where you're never alone? Well, one of them said, I do feel uncomfortable sitting in my room by myself. Even when I have to write a paper, I do it at a friend's. That same day, as it happened, another student gave a presentation on Emerson's essay on friendship. Emerson says, he reported, that one of the purposes of friendship is to equip you for solitude. As I was asking my students what they thought that meant, one of them interrupted to say, wait a second, why do you need solitude in the first place? What can you do by yourself that you can't do with a friend?

    So there they were: one young person who had lost the capacity for solitude and another who couldn't see the point of it. There's been much talk of late about the loss of privacy, but equally calamitous is its corollary, the loss of solitude. It used to be that you couldn't always get together with your friends even when you wanted to. Now that students are in constant electronic contact, they never have trouble finding each other. But it's not as if their compulsive sociability is enabling them to develop deep friendships. "To whom can I expose the urgency of my own passion?": my student was in her friend's room writing a paper, not having a heart-to-heart. She probably didn't have the time; indeed, other students told me they found their peers too busy for intimacy.

    What happens when busyness and sociability leave no room for solitude? The ability to engage in introspection, I put it to my students that day, is the essential precondition for living an intellectual life, and the essential precondition for introspection is solitude. They took this in for a second, and then one of them said, with a dawning sense of self-awareness, "So are you saying that we're all just, like, really excellent sheep?" Well, I don't know. But I do know that the life of the mind is lived one mind at a time: one solitary, skeptical, resistant mind at a time. The best place to cultivate it is not within an educational system whose real purpose is to reproduce the class system.



    The world that produced John Kerry and George Bush is indeed giving us our next generation of leaders. The kid who's loading up on AP courses junior year or editing three campus publications while double-majoring, the kid whom everyone wants at their college or law school but no one wants in their classroom, the kid who doesn't have a minute to breathe, let alone think, will soon be running a corporation or an institution or a government. She will have many achievements but little experience, great success but no vision. The disadvantage of an elite education is that it's given us the elite we have, and the elite we're going to have.


    William Deresiewicz taught English at Yale University from 1998 to 2008.


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  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Shirley, Not only can humans not multitask but it appears that when they do the thing that everyone likes to refer to as multitasking, it's less efficient.  I gather that it takes our brains a few seconds each time we switch from one task to another to kick in, so that if we stick with the same task we can finish it faster and more efficiently, as we don't have to try and come back up to speed every few seconds.

    If I had know McCain would drop the "my friends" I would have watched.  Was it good?  

    I know I shouldn't be so critical of verbal tics as I have a horrible one myself.  It's interjecting "you know" every fifth word or so.  I doubt I could be a politician as I've tried to stop and can't. 

    I should note that I post lots of times because I'm bored with reading or watching TV and these threads are a great way to keep myself occupied and not eating! 

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