Spirituality Outside Of Organized Religion

DivineMrsM

This thread is for those of us who believe in a higher spiritual power but do not associate those beliefs with organized religion (such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.). You may have moved away from previously held conventional religious beliefs or perhaps you've been a free-thinking spiritualist all your life.

DivineMrsM

My story: I was raised Catholic but could never make much sense of it. In my early 20s, I became a born-again Christian which literally saved my sanity after growing up in a dysfunctional family. For the next 30 years, my religion helped me through many difficult times. I was a firm believer in prayer.

After getting the bc diagnosis, I began seeking a better quality of everything my life. This approach gradually made me realize my religion was no longer working for me. I started loosening my bonds to Christianity and exploring new thoughts about spirituality.

I happened upon a book called "The Dance of the Dissident Daughter" by Sue Monk Kidd (author of The Secret Life of Bees and other books). When she was almost 40s, she, too, became disillusioned with her religion (Southern Baptist).

In beautiful prose, she writes how she began to see the ways Christianity and other religions are male dominated, i.e., "the patriarchy"; how, throughout our lives, we as women are conditioned to see things through the eyes of what men have determined "religious." She writes that we can find our own feminine voice and approach to the spiritual.

She put into words many thoughts that had been swirling around in my head.

Please note that I'm not bashing men; I have a dad (deceased), husband, son, step-son & brothers, all whom I love. But I can no longer put up with religious teachings that women are inferior to men. Since seeing the patriarchy of man-made religion, I cannot unsee it.

I believe in a higher intelligence, tho I'm still questioning what spirituality means to me.

Lisey

Divine, I'm similar to you... I was born and raised LDS (Mormon) and after reading the amazing book "The Shack" Realized that the Jesus I want to follow has this as His motto: 

"Again Jesus stopped. "Those who love me come from every system that exists. They were Buddhists or Mormons, Baptists or Muslim, Democrats, Republicans, and many who don't vote or are not part of any Sunday morning religious institutions. I have followers who were murderers and many who were self-righteous. Some were bankers and bookies, Americans and Iraquis, Jews and Palistinians. I have no desire to make them Christian, but I do want to join them in their transformation into sons and daughters of my Papa, into my brothers and sisters, into my Beloved."

That book, The Shack, changed everything for me, and the fact that Papa was a pleasant surprise in representation, sealed the deal....  I highly suggest the read (but you will be crying.. I was sobbing through half the book.. in a good way)  Feminists should absolutely love this book.  No Patriarchy here!

DivineMrsM

Lisey, thank you for sharing and I'm glad you found answers to what you needed spiritually. For me, I cannot go the Jesus or Papa route.

DearLife

Thanks Divine for starting this thread. I am not sure if I fit here or in the atheist thread; maybe both.

I too was raised Catholic and went to a convent school for ten years. Although the formal religion was patriarchal, the nuns who taught us were feminist in many ways. The principal had her PhD and the education program focused on logic and discussion. We were encouraged to ask questions.

I left the church in my teens but still find remnants of the practices to be comforting. Sometimes I think I am a Marianist, those who follow Mary, but I take none of it literally. For example, these Beatles lyrics speak to me:

“When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be
And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be“

To me, this is simply metaphorical but it is calming. I make up my own prayers, or even say the rosary when distressed. It becomes a mantra that is soothing to me. This helped me when I was first diagnosed.

I don't believe there is a higher intelligence in any form that we would recognize, although nature weaves a wondrous web. Clearly there is much that humans don't understand.

It is nice to be able to express these private thoughts in a safe space.

DivineMrsM

DearLife, how fascinating that the nuns at the convent school you attended were so progressive in their education and teaching!

I definitely understand how some religious routines can be calming.

My belief in a spiritual realm stems in part from several personal unrelated experiences I’ve had over the course of my life where I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that forces were working to take me where I wanted to go or deliver an outcome I desperately hoped for. I consider that “spirit”. It is like doors opening at the right time, often against the odds.

LoveFromPhilly

“free-thinking spiritualist all your life” is how I have always felt

Born into Jewish blood culturally but not religiously. Always interesting that Judaism is the one religion that you can carry the culture of, but not have to carry the religious identity of.

When I was 13/14 years old I started exploring Buddhism and yin/yang theory.

The oddball of my family - I have always been a lover of nature and hiking, camping, outdoor exploration.

My undergrad degree is in biology (love the study of science!) and my grad degree in Classical Chinese medicine and nutrition.

Chinese medical theory has a beautiful way of approaching life and it blends really well with the anthrosopothical approach to understanding life and our vital forces here on earth and then our return to and recycling back into the particles and minerals and stardust from which we came from. So much to ponder!

magiclight

Just to be clear re: the topic intro about those of us who "do not associate those beliefs with organized religion (such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.). I've searched the threads and cannot find any one devoted to Judaism, Hinduism or whatever you mean by etc. There is only a Christian thread. Islam is one of the world great religions and the second largest in the world. Although I am not a member of the Islamic faith, I find it belittling to include them in 'etc.' I'm assuming you did not mean that to be insulting, but it does show a bias.

I found this thread because you popped into the atheist thread to promote spirituality.

ananda8

If there was any bias, and I'm not sure there was, the bias was due to our culture and no other reason.  But you bring up a good point, magiclight. Why are there no threads of Muslims, Judaism, Hindus or other religions?  I could start one for Buddhists but I think that is pretty well covered under this or the atheist thread. Perhaps its because only a very small portion of  Americans follow Middle Eastern or Asian religions.

DivineMrsM

Before I wrote the post, I googled something like “world religions". Of course, you get tons of articles. Some give you “the most popular" list, according to number of followers. Reading one of those lists, out of 12 religions, Judaism was low. Mormon religion was just above Judaism. In the middle somewhere was Buddhism. It listed Christianity and Catholicism as separate religions, and I truly always considered them to both be Christian faiths. Both Agnosticism and Atheism were listed as religion! Well, I didn't really see those as “religions" in my mind. But there you have it. Anyway, I picked the first and last religion on that list, and one somewhere in the middle. Etc. added to mean there are many others. I'm not going to list them all. If you want to be offended or read some kind of bias into my post, I don't get it.

https://www.newsmax.com/thewire/most-popular-religions-sects-images/2014/05/01/id/569022/

By the way, I intentionally kept the original post to this thread brief because I admired the way the atheist thread original post was brief and to the point. See my first post just below my original post? I started to include all that excessive detail in my original post and then thought, “Um....no."

MinusTwo

MrsM - I've added this site to my favorites after reading about your new start on the atheist thread. I will certainly be interested to follow the discussion. I appreciated seeing the religions on the link you posted. Interesting - I thought several of them were Christian faiths in addition to Catholicism, though listed separately. Tipping a glass of wine your way for an auspicious beginning.

DivineMrsM

Thanks, MinusTwo! I'll drink to that!

Wren44

I read a book for some class in college, The Feminine Face of God by Anderson & Hopkins. I think people on this thread might find it interesting.

There was a Buddhist thread at one point. I read it a little bit but found it boring. Something in me loves chanting, especially in a language I don't understand.

LoveFromPhilly

there's definitely been some HORRIBLY racist and violent posts against Muslims on BC.org. Just doing a quick search on Islam and you'll see them loud and clear.

I don't think MrsDivine meant any harm when she did not include Islam as a possible religion. But it is very important to not marginalize any persons.

While these boards are anonymous, I can't help but have the feeling that many people who post are white christian females in their 60s for some reason 😂 no offense to white christian women in their 60s,

DearLife

75% of Americans identify as Christians and half of newly diagnosed breast cancer occurs in women over 60. So it is not surprising that many people on BCO are Christian women in their 60s.

I don't know how we can tell race or ethnicity from on-screen names but I have seen some very heartfelt exchanges with self-declared Muslim women on this site. It is sad to know there is also intolerance.

The only religion I wish to subscribe to is Kindness.

DivineMrsM

I've never, even as a child, understood violence towards others due to religious beliefs. I respect others' beliefs and non-beliefs. I'm not here to recruit anyone to my way of thinking.

Wren, the book you mention “The Feminine Face of God" sounds intriguing. I will check it out. Sue Monk Kidd discusses the Feminine Divine throughout her DofDD book.

It's been about 5 years since I read Dance of the Dissident Daughter, and I'm currently rereading it. It speaks to me on an even deeper level this time. For instance, this passage explains how I've felt moving away from a lifelong conditioning of Christian beliefs:

————

“...the idea of existing beyond the patriarchal institution of faith, of withdrawing our external projection of God onto the church, is almost always unfathomable. It's that old the-world-is-flat conviction, where we believe that if we sail out on the spiritual ocean beyond a certain point we will fall off the edge of the known world into a void. We think there's nothing beyond the edge. No real spirituality, no salvation, no community, no divine substance. We cannot see that the voyage will lead us to whole new continents of depth and meaning. That if we keep going, we might even come full circle, but with a whole new consciousness."

————

It helps to know that others see the oppression and patriarchy of Christianity yet find “leaving" that faith to be unsettling, but they can no longer stay. .

Micmel

I struggle with this topic completely... I was born catholic and received my first holy communion, confirmation. CCD classes. I never really understood any of it at all. I sometimes think my mom did it because she thought she had too. I have had a good life, but childhood was really rough and so was my teenage years. Then divorce and estrangement from a portion of my of my family from it. I've had experiences that I cannot explain, prayers that have been answered and others that weren't. I certainly wonder why good people suffer and the bad ones never seem to get a hangnail. I am always searching for answers now.. especially with this diagnosis... it makes you question your mortality... the thought of me being just over... done....gone....blackened sight....nothing but stillness...nothing... does scare me. I want to believe something also had to create all the beauty our eyes see everyday. It's a real conundrum that humanity can never fully answer. You believe what you believe. I respect that. My beliefs change. I just can't help it. That is why I wrestle with this every day! Love to see you Divine. I was getting worried. Love your idea. 😃 hugs friend. ~M~

NotVeryBrave

This is a very interesting topic. It's strange how some people in crisis (BC) "find" faith and others lose it. I was already in a weird place spiritually so I'm not sure that having cancer changed much of that.

My parents were Catholic and I was raised in that religion - until my mother attended "prayer meetings" and became "born again" and left the church. I spent my preteen and teen years doing a lot of what I call "church shopping" with my mother.

As a young adult, I searched for a church I could really belong in and find meaning and community in. I found that in a nondenominational Christian mega church and met my husband through it. But over the years - through a number of circumstances (miscarriage, betrayal, loss) - I started to drift away. I felt that it was all a ruse.

These days I have no religion, no faith. For the sake of my children, I have tried to attend a variety of churches for seasons of time. They never feel true because I am a skeptic and I can't fit in. I hide my lack of faith from my parents and children because it's easier than telling the truth.

I love nature and am a scientist and medical professional. I see the wonder of life and contemplate some "higher being" at least setting it in motion. But the things that people do to others in the name of one religion or another also turn me off.

I don't really wonder about why we are here or where we're going anymore. I just think it's important to be the best you can be in this life - a kindness, a smile, a hand - and remember that everyone needs that.

exbrnxgrl

magiclight,

Here is the Jewish sisters thread:

https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/38/topics/776037?page=38#post_4922877

There is a Muslim sisters thread as well. I'll try to find it but as I recall, it was not a very active thread. Please remember that most threads are started by members, not the moderators. If you'd like to see threads for religious groups not already represented on bco, feel free to start some.

exbrnxgrl

Magiclight,

Here is a link to the Islamic sisters thread, though it is not an active thread:

https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/38/topics/765037?page=1#idx_25

There are also threads for Buddhists, Taoists, Pagans, Orthodox Christians, and Anglicans among others. Whether they are active or not depends on bco members. So in short, there are indeed threads devoted to religions besides Christianity

DivineMrsM

exbrnxgrl, thanks for the information on other religious threads on this forum. Your posts are always welcome!

Micmel, I got a chuckle when you wrote: “I certainly wonder why good people suffer and the bad ones never seem to get a hangnail." Ain't that the truth! And the wrestling with these spiritual questions, grappling with it all, I do that also. I'm learning, though, a bit at a time, that it's okay to question what I was taught, and if I don't find it to be my truth anymore, it is okay to seek something new.

Now that I think about it, it sort of reminds me of a house. Sometimes you may live there forever and other times you may find you've outgrown it. So many things in our lives grow and change. Why does a religion insist that all growing spiritually must be done within the confines of that religion?

NVBrave, the comments on how you've approached faith or the lack thereof are interesting. I think many people hide their non-beliefs so they don't rock the boat. “Safe conventionality".

Like you, I, cannot bear the things that people do to others in the name of religion. How can they not see the contradictions of it?

DearLife, I try to practice kindness on a daily basis, too.

Wren44

I think skeptics are welcome in the Unitarian church. Jokes: Unitarians believe in, at the most, one God, and Unitarians burned a question mark on the lawn. They differ in how deist they are. Our church had 2 services. Early was mostly agnostic and late was more deist. I liked how engaged they were with community problems.

KatyK

Great and interesting thread. I often ponder what is the difference between atheist and someone who is spiritual but non-theist. I do not believe in a god but struggle to say I’m an atheist. I guess it’s due to the spiritual feeling I get when usually out in the wilderness, a starry night adds to the feeling. It brings out many of the “meaning of life” questions and awe at our incredible universe. I often say, “Never mind the answers we probably don’t even know the questions.” I was not raised with religion or attending church. Having this diagnosis has not made me feel the need to believe in a god. It’s interesting though the palliative care doctor I see encouraged me to talk with a spiritual leader besides counselors at the cancer center. So I thought about it and did reach out to the local rabbi but he did not respond. That is ok I am not Jewish. However, I will say I stumbled across this book titled, When Life Falls Apart, by Pema Chodron. I mentioned this on the Ibrance thread as well. Anyhow the book is 20 years old so it is not new but it is really speaking to me right now. I am finding comfort reading this book and a different way of viewing life and difficulties. It is a Buddhist view which is non-theist. Very helpful to me in my life right now, wish I had discovered the book years ago

DivineMrsM

Katy, I’ve wondered in the past few years from time to time how my life would be different had I not been raised with religion. Because it does a number on your head! For example, all those messages I heard about Catholics not supposed to use birth control. That sex was for procreation, meaning that any other reason was shameful. And no sex before marriage. I was a smart teenager and got myself to a Planned Parenthood office and got on birth control. In my 30s, when I had trouble with fertility and pregnancies, I felt some deep guilt, like God was punishing me for the actions of my younger self. I was no longer Catholic, but those ideas were drilled in my head at a young, impressionable age and hard to shake. Oh how I wish I could go back and eliminate that guilt from my younger self.

I’m glad you found a book that speaks to you and is giving you new and helpful insight. Those kinds of books are priceless.

ananda8

I was raised Catholic and in reflection, I can see the value in examining one's conscience for faults.  The problem with that is the church didn't give a companion instruction to examine one's conscience for virtue.  Coaches tell athletes what they do wrong but they also tell athletes what they are doing right so the individual can build on his or her skill.  

It took me a long time before I found I could spend an equal amount of time remembering my good deeds and virtues as I did criticizing myself.  The focus on "sin" to the exclusion of a focus on virtue is stunting. The church focus on sexual "morality" especially for girls is often at the expense of focus on ethics, compassion, and appreciation of one's good acts.

pingpong1953

Wren, I belonged to a Unitarian church for about 20 years when I lived in Cleveland. Now I live in a sparsely populated part of Ontario and the nearest UU church is a 6 hour drive away. I really miss the community and the variety of services we had. I also got to watch our congregation's children grow from tiny babies to really fantastic adults. And coffee hour!

Wren44

Yes, the coffee hour!!

DivineMrsM

NVBrave, regarding how a bc diagnosis often has the effect of a person either finding faith or losing it: In my case, my religious beliefs had helped me cope through many of life's difficulties. It offered me hope and gave me guidance on getting through troubled times.

Then I was diagnosed with metastatic bc from the start, or stage iv. This was not a “difficulty" or “trouble". For me it was shear abject terror. My entire body and mind and spirit were hit with a physical blood curdling jolt of fear the moment the oncologist said the bc had traveled to my bones.

In some ways, you don't recover from that kind of news. I eventually had to admit that my sort of ho-hum, purring along smoothly, don't make waves religion was no match for the intensity of navigating the rough waters of mbc and all that involves. My psyche had ramped up to a different level. It was an awakening of some kind and my sleepy faith could no longer support these different demands I was putting on it. I had to set sail to a new way of thinking. I could no longer contain my feelings in a certain mindset of, “There, there, now, Jesus has you in the palm of his hand." While that may comfort some, it felt to me like a way of minimizing what I was going through.

DivineMrsM

I got so much out of re-reading Dance of the Dissondant Daughter. One thing I seem to grasp a better understanding of is that the feminine side of God or Spirit is associated with the earth and nature and not lofty, high-above characteristics many people want to describe God as being. So many of us find a ourselves nurtured when we are in nature, so this makes great sense to me.

While some people find it shocking to apply feminine characteristics to God, I realize that's something that's been missing in my view of a Higher Being—the feminine must be present to balance the masculline.

I'm also learning I can reach a point of forgiving the injustices I've felt from the Christian faith, for myself and for other women. I don't have to go around nursing a big gaping hole in my heart the rest of my life. There can be some closure and some moving on without always feeling the indignation.

DearLife

I love the stories of the goddesses. Iris, the goddess of rainbows is my favourite. Many ancient cultures held goddesses in high esteem. While I am a nontheist, I think there is room for symbolism and allegory. Or maybe I am pagan!

Divine, you are right about not nursing “a big gaping hole" We have all been wounded and by holding on to the pain, we hurt ourselves. Not easy to let go when the indignation is deep but so liberating.

DivineMrsM

It helps so much to be able to discuss spirituality in broader terms here and not feel that I’m being judged for not going along with Christian teachings. It’s like trying to separate myself from a relationship I’ve had for 40 years. Not all of it’s been bad. Certainly, Christianity teaches some wonderful approaches to life, forgiveness being one of them. Do unto others. Don’t lie or kill, and other moral teachings like generosity and dependability.

But I remember when I was first “saved” as a young adult and the church I attended admonished us to not get our lessons from “the world”, that they should be from the Bible or Christian sermons. Even then I was conflicted because there were often times something I would read or see on TV would be helpful and it was like I was “cheating” on God. In time, I grew more comfortable gleaning knowledge from sources other than church.