C02 Laser for Mastectomies and Wounds

sas-schatzi

Topic box will be revised

C02 laser is a tool used for many surgical procedures on soft tissue. Soft tissue is anything that isn't bone. Presently, there is only one physician using the C02 laser for mastectomies. What is softer than a breast? My goal is to push the medical/surgical community towards research & development for C02 laser assisted mastectomy. This is a long term project months to years.

In gathering info towards this project, I became aware that the veterinary community is using C02 laser for wound care. The goal is the similar to mastectomies, R & D for human use.

Any one wanting to assist that would be nice

The C02 laser use came on my radar when I found Snowday's description of her experience in July 2017. Here is the link to her thread.

https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/26/topics/857219?page=1&post_creation=true

I will be cutting, pasting and revising my posts as needed from her thread, to create a continuity for the beginning of this thread.

sas-schatzi

reserved for index

sas-schatzi

Dr. Vincent Ansanelli MD of Plainview NY. developed his technique with the C02 laser in the early 1980's. His techniques has not been embraced by the wider medical/ surgical community. I'm bold enough to say that has been a failure of the system. The following is a revised post I wrote on Snowday's thread.

This is an news article about his laser surgery from 2016. It has a video interview with him. As an old OR nurse, I find it very impressive how rapidly he can excise tissue. In standard surgery having to move slower to manage bleeders by conventional methods causes an increase in length of time to excise tissue. It would be interesting to see a side by side video of the use of the harmonic scalpel and a laser.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2016/11/03/unique-treatment-for-breast-cancer-laser-surgery.html

What I find very odd about this is when a new method is introduced and morbidity(illness) & mortality(death) abreviated M&M, are not associated with a new approach, usually someone jumps on it. Usually, it's teaching hospitals associated with medical schools because they are the pioneers for new approaches.

The fact that he has been doing this since the early 1980's, I find very very odd. Can't tell you how odd.

I could relate histories of other procedures that used other equipment that burst into use for many procedures, once initial introduction had been made and the M&M was good.

The biggest being the Laproscope. We poke Laproscopes into every orifice and body part now.

Robots are used for many, many surgeries. My crani was done by a robot and doc.

Well, perhaps we can make a difference. Advancements in care are often consumer driven. Possible approach to rapidly move things along is a Change.org petition directed at the American College of Surgeons (ACS), and the American Medical Association (AMA) which controls " FREIDA, the AMA Residency & Fellowship Database® from more than 10,000 programs—all accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME)." NCCN National Comprehensive Cancer Network too.

Why would this work?

1. We can amass lots of signatures.

2. Change like this is very responsive to consumer pressure. People all over the country and farther away pestering their docs with the question "WHY isn't this available?"

3. High publicity that this hasn't been researched.

4. It will reach all the surgical residencies through the AMA and FREIDA.

But more information needs to be gathered first.

sas-schatzi

I interviewed Dr A by phone on Nov 10th 2017, I'm placing his interview reponses here in case they need to be referenced later .

1. My Main Question: Knowing the history of laser surgery and that there are many procedures that laser is used as the treatment of choice, why hasn't the surgical community advanced research for the use of laser with mastectomy? (sas-schatzi)

These are my words now not DR A's, it's complicated. But my assessment that his laser assisted method was not supported by the wider surgical community was correct. He will be sending an article that I will post later.

The benefit of doing the look at the harmonic scalpel that is posted on the next page is that we have a good comparison of use between conventional surgery and harmonic scalpel use in surgery. The factors studied were Intraoperative blood loss, post-operative drainage, length of surgery time, seroma development etc. There has been no such study for the comparison of conventional surgery, harmonic scalpel assisted surgery and laser surgery. This is a huge FAILURE of the scientific and medical community b/c lasers have moved into use for many other soft tissue related procedures.

2. What do you suggest in trying to advance research into C02 laser assisted surgery? He believes advancements in any field are often consumer driven.

3. Are you training surgeons to carry on the use of C02 Laser Breast Cancer surgery? (Chef127)( very happy past patient that sings praises of your care far and wide). He does have docs acting as assistants, as a consequence are learning his technique by involvement. My words now, to formally train he would have to have a program.

4. His facility is accredited by the same organization that accredits hospitals. Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations. JACHO.

5. How many laser assisted surgeries have you done? 1000's, no tally, but he has been doing this since the late 1980's.

6. Is your patient selection limited by comorbidities i.e diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease? Medical clearance is required of all patients to be done at his facility. My words now, industry standard is the doctor doing the medical clearance is the patients PCP.

7. Who is monitoring vital signs and EKG, are they Advanced Cardiac Life Support Trained(ACLS) and does the facility have a crash cart?. An Anesthesiologist monitors the patient and administers drugs for IV as needed.

8. Is the patient placed on low level oxygen i.e. 2 liters? The Anesthesiologist determines if patient needs to have oxygen during the procedure.

9. Does the patient have an IV ? Yes

10. Does the patient get a block? No

11. Is local anesthesia used ? Yes, Lidocaine

12. What is the average length of your surgery? 1-2 hours

13. Do you do double mastectomy's? Yes, but usually will preform the second mastectomy in a few days.

14. Do you do prophylactic mastectomies? Yes

15. Do you do nipple sparing mastectomy? Yes

16. Do you do Sentinel lymph node removal? Yes. My words now, I forgot to ask by which method.

17. Full lymph node dissection? He doesn't believe in full lymph node dissection b/c of the risk of lymphedema. He determines how many to remove.

18. Intraoperative blood loss average? Zero, because the laser seals the capillary bleeders. Larger blood vessels are handled in the conventional method (clamp and tie). My words now, there would be a small amount.

19. Are drains used? Yes, always b/c of serous drainage. The drain is usually just in the breast area. May place a drain in the axillary area as determined at the time of surgery.

20. One month ago, a patient review said they had a 10 day hospital admission?(Datny) He was unaware of this situation. StateD it must have been a medical problem not related to surgery. My words now, It would be highly unusual if an admission was related to surgery, that the admitting physician would not contact the surgical physician to review the case, even if the surgical physician didn't have admitting privileges.

21. Infections? Risk of infection is reduced b/c the laser vaporizes the tissue and any bacteria present.

22. Lymphedema? He doesn't remember any patients developing lymphedema. Stated scarring is responsible for lymphedema, smaller lymph vessels are sealed by the laser, and he does as few lymph nodes as he determines need to be done.

23. Seroma? Rarely occurs. My words now, remember as he is using the laser to cut away the breast tissue from the muscle wall, he is sealing the ends of the capillaries and the smaller lymph vessels. When those are well sealed you will have less drainage. A normal tissue response when traumatized i.e. surgery, is that inflammation occurs and the tissue will seep serous fluid. Serous fluid is yellowish. This is normal. What is seen in the standard surgical approach to mastectomy is the drainage is often red. Red is bloody. That's b/c in the standard surgery approach the capillaries aren't sealed as they are with a laser. When there is large amounts of bloody drainage, then a larger vessels was missed or a suture tie let loose. Key word hematoma. The approach then is to wait until the body manages it by clotting or surgical re-entry to control bleeding. If the collection is serous, the approach is to allow it to drain off until the inflammatory response in the area is decreased. This would be evidenced by steady reduction of fluid. If the drain is taken out to early before the natural reduction of tissue seeping fluid that fluid can builds up. This is termed seroma.

24. Large motor nerve transection to arm? Has never had this occur.

25. Average number of post-op visits? Varies based on need, but usually a few. Out of town patients that return home, he communicates with the doctor based on situation.

-

26.What do you use for post-op pain med? Usually, Extra Strength Tylenol, no narcotics

-27. Do patients get reconstruction after surgery with you? No, the mastectomy is completed. He then waits for pathology and treatment determination by the MO (see next question).

28. Do you make a referral or do they have to find their own doc? Dr A makes a referral to a plastic surgeon for reconstruction or patient finds there own reconstruction doc and then he assists by communication. Except to this is when a partial mastectomy/lumpectomy is done, he performs a mastoplexy (repair of site) will be done by him at time of the lumpectomy.

29. Who steps in for you if you have a problem during surgery? Doctor assistant or Surgical physicians assistant. My words now, we didn't discuss specifics.

Except in a few instances when I edited this piece, I removed who asked the question. I may edit further for clarity, but not content. I will not note edit.

I have asked Dr A to review content. If he wishes to change something for accuracy I will.

sas-schatzi

Laser is used in many places of the body. From Wiki, the procedural areas are listed. Basically, it's being used from head to foot. Except, for the breast.

Dermatology and plastic surgery, eye, endovascular(inside blood vessels), spine, foot & ankle, Gastrointestinal tract, oral & dental, gynecology, genitourinary, thoracic (chest), neurosurgery, otorhinolaryngology (ear, nose, and throat),

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_surgery

Hahaha Got'em

sas-schatzi

This is the governments description of laser use in cancers. It hasn't been updated since 2011. That is very out of date. Very. Laser development for cancer use is advancing rapidly. Alater article describes that lasers are being used in liver and pancreatic cancers. This article does however describe what kind of lasers are being used for different body parts.

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/types/surgery/lasers-fact-sheet

sas-schatzi

reserved

sas-schatzi

Potential contacts:

https://www.vshsd.com/about/veterinarians/surgery/465-dr-sean-aiken

American Society for Lasers in Medicine and Surgery --lot's of calls all dead end.

877) 258-6028

Dr. Vijay Maker of Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke`s Medical Center and Grant Hospital. 7732965346 messages x's 2

Dr. Philip B. Morris of the Surgery Center in Santa Rosa, Calif--. retired unavailable

automated laser corp- fort wayne indianna-- 8776374155 Dustin message

Amada America Ca 877 262 3287 message

convergent mass. 4135985200 ken message

Melies Griot Ca. 7604382131 dead end no CO2

Aesculight 1425 487-9988

sas-schatzi

Contacted:

Healagoics 700 wound care centers USA, external to hospitals, no use of lasers

UF Gainesville vet school--no use of lasers in surgery, but use in wound care

UF human wound care-no use of lasers in humans. irony laser used in animals, but not humans.

Dr Ansanelli- interviewed

sas-schatzi

Wounds -vet world

I contacted Gainesville University of Florida Veterinary College. 770-532-0491.

They don't use lasers for surgery, but they use it on certain types of resistant infected wounds. The action of the laser is similar to the Wound Vac used in the human community. The laser vaporizes the infected tissue and the tissue bleeds. With the Wound Vac, it sucks the infected tissue away.

The concept that is similar to both is they cause bleeding in the wound bed. With that bleeding oxygen rich red blood cells are brought to the site. Anaerobic Bacteria doesn't like oxygen. regenerating tissues love oxygen rich blood. Plus, in the blood are the white blood cells that attack bacteria. It's a win win situation. But this is a new wrinkle, I need to track if laser is being used for wounds in the human community. The dominoes sre starting to fall

I checked in with Medical (human) two wound care outfits. One at UF Gainesville, they are not using it on humans, but I find it interesting that just across the way in the vet school they are. The other company , is Healogics, super large company that contracts out for wound care throughout the USA. The also have Research and Development (R&D).

This causes me to ask why isn't laser therapy not been researched for wound care in humans?

This breadcrumb may not seem like it is on topic, but the crumbs will eventually come together.

sas-schatzi

reserved for MT post

sas-schatzi

2002 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12188072

This is a Meta-Analysis and is the oldest study in the group

Study "Conclusion: Modified radical mastectomy using harmonic scalpel is feasible and learning curve is short. Harmonic scalpel significantly reduces the blood loss and duration of drainage as compared to electrocautery."

2012 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23089404

Study "Conclusion: Using the Harmonic FOCUS scalpel in breast conserving surgery and axillary lymph mode dissection significantly reduced the length of surgery and decreased the axillary numbness rate as compared to conventional methods".

2013 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24186056 "(study conclusion)Our study confirms that in patients with BC requiring ALND the use of HDDs is more time efficient than conventional surgery, and reduces intraoperative bleeding, the amount of drainage, and the risk of seroma formation. These results may lead to several short- and long-term advantages. Thus, a careful evaluation of the cost-benefits of nontraditional tools, such as HDDs, should be performed in all patients undergoing modified radical or partial mastectomy and ALND for BC

2015 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26544716

This study is a Meta-Analysis. That means it's looking and comparing results of multiple other studies.

Study "Conclusion: Compared to standard electrocautery, harmonic scalpel dissection presents significant advantages in decreasing postoperative drainage, seroma development, intraoperative blood loss and wound complications in modified radical mastectomy for breast cancer, without increasing operative time. Harmonic scalpel can be recommended as a preferential surgical instrument in modified radical mastectomy"

2016 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28350973 Study "Conclusion :No statistical difference, more study needed." Paraphrased for brevity.

2016 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27142863

Study "Conclusion: In our hands, HF use was not superior to CD in limiting seroma formation in ALND for breast cancer. Increased seroma formation in surgeries >2.5 h in duration is commensurate with surgeries involving mastectomy and ALND (>2.5 h in our study), which entails greater and sustained tissue and lymphovascular trauma."

Harmonic scalpel description in Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_scalpel

sas-schatzi

My opinion. The first Meta-analysis was in 2002 It's conclusion was that harmonic scalpel was a good thing. Isn't that nice. Time went on.

The key questions in all the studies relate to time i.e. length of surgery and whether morbidity was affected. The common question to all the studies was post- op seroma and bleeding. Remember, I just got done reading six abstracts looking for differences and commonalities. Then a huge puzzle popped up

The 2015 Meta-Analysis(MA) looked at 11 studies for it's conclusions. Two of the studies listed here were published in 2016 a year after MA study, were in direct opposition of the 2015 meta-analysis study. That's surprising. Very surprising.

I looked at common authors and I didn't note any. The publications are from around the world. When doing a literature search either for a meta-analysis or a new study, the search is going to encompass the world of publications. So, the folks doing the 2016 studies had to be aware or should have been aware of the 2015 study.

Again to have two non-committal publications at essentially at the same time as a very positive MA is unusual, and concerning. It would take a very serious look as to how and why that occurred. One non committal study was done in Australia and the other was done in Italy based on author information. Both countries are strong into research. Edit: The MA was done in China or at least by folks based in China. Again a meta-analysis is a look back at existing (world) literature. Generally, one MA goes back to the last MA which would have been 2002. The Australia and Italy study published their specific findings, but still surprised they didn't support the MA findings. Anywhooses.

This is exactly why you never look at one study and make a conclusion. So, what do you do?

If it were me I'd go with the request to your surgeon to use a harmonic scalpel. Asking how skilled they are with and how many approximate cases have they used it ? The 2002 meta-analysis study identified "learning curve is short". As an old OR nurse, that tells me profiency(sic) in using the instrument isn't out of bounds and can be rapidly learned for the experienced physician.

The harmonic scalpel has been around a long time. That tells me all residents in at least USA accredited programs, are trained from day one with it, i.e. back into the 1990's. Figuring that a meta-analysis was written in 2002, teaching hospitals used them routinely. Generally, once a physician completes their residency, they follow the tenets and training that they were taught in residency, but if the hospital that they practice at didn't use the equipment then they wouldn't. But, generally, to attract newly minted docs or older experienced docs, hospitals will purchase new devices and equipment. This makes the docs happy and keeps the non-teaching hospitals up to date.

The tools available to a surgeon as I stated in a long ago previous post are going to be scalpel, electrocautery, scissors, clamps, ties, harmonic scalpel. Many other tools, but not germane to the discussion. When and how a tool is used is based on the skill of the surgeon and situation presented.

Key factors: 1. approach does no harm 2. shorter the surgery the less the complications. Not just with the site, but also systemically(whole body) 3. more controlled everything is on the surgical field (operation site) the less post- op problems i.e seroma and bleeding. 4. I'll add if I think of something else.

What has been excellent for me is delving into research about the harmonic scalpel. Prior to this, I considered it a nice tool. I took it for granted. This study today allows for generating interest and discussion into the C02 laser.

Which is better?

The horse race is on

sas-schatzi

I'm such a nerd. I woke up thinking about the Harmonic scalpel study of a few days ago. This was 4am. It's bothered me that the study had such positive results from a paper who's writers were from China(2015). and less positive results of two papers whose authors were based in Australia & Italy (both 2016). This was a puzzle.

The 4 am thought "Where are the harmonic scalpels manufactured?" Ducked (like google) " Who manufactures harmonic scalpels?". This brought up Alibaba. I looked at the first 3 pages. All the manufacturers were from China. Approximately twenty two listed that either produced the base unit or supplies for the base unit. After that other manufactures were listed, but I stopped at that point.

https://www.alibaba.com/harmonic-scalpel-suppliers_1.html?spm=a2700.9099375.16.5.56242203ldzAkP

As some recreational reading after that, I came across a study and an article on "Spin" in research papers. It's not encouraging. 8 of 10 papers published can be shown to have some spin on the results. The study listed multiple reasons for this. One being that studies were paid for by the producer of the product or drug. They are suppose to declare this, but the article about the study found that this is not always done.

I'm inclined to say that there was bias in the China study as they have the largest manufactures of harmonic scalpels in the world. It would take a great deal of detective work to uncover if this were true. But it looks awfully suspicious.

I put the "spin" study on the evidence based research thread

https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/73/topics/834695?page=1#post_5090782

sas-schatzi

Changes in practice of any aspect of medicine/surgery is first driven by science. A break from the status quo of accepted practice which is science based is driven by one person having an idea, and willing to do the research and publication of the idea. That approach may not be accepted by the "community" b/c it is different than what they learned.

Not all docs are idea people. Medical schools teach them to ridgely(sic) adhere to accepted medical/surgical standards. To practice outside of accepted medical/ surgical standards is heresy.

I went to the computer to check spelling of heresy and decided to throw in key words "scientific heresy". Great link.

http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/102468/14944004/1320269922797/ScientificHeresy.pdf?token=DLFQpucD0a%2BSeBiBsEgNKrctK88%3D

Back to my espousing. Change within the medical/surgical community is really accomplished by the consumer. A better less costly way. I could do a fancy dancy dissertation on that, but the readers here get that without doing that.

I recognized right away within a short few hours from reading your topic box till I wrote the head slap statement (first page) that the medical/surgical field that we depend on had failed us. Might have been less, but you know there was a very short transition. Dr. Ansanelli and Dr. Formenti are two idea people. They tried to change the system. The system didn't/ doesn't want to change.

I've stated several times my goal is to force the change in the system by gathering information, developing a plan that makes the consumer aware there is a different way. The consumer will then pester the medical/surgical community "We demand change for a safer and better way, or we will take our dollars to those that will do it for less". Back to my simpler statement "A better less costly way".

All of progress in medicine/surgery were by idea people, the system finally accepted what they were doing. Hmmmm. that's good enough for now. The idea people are remembered b/c of the changes they brought about i.e Hippocrates et all.

We can force the change.

sas-schatzi

Very old study abstract 1986, by Anasinelli If I find anything else I'll post it

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3100894

See comment in PubMed Commons belowLasers Surg Med. 1986;6(5):470-2.

CO2 laser in cancer surgery of the breast: a comparative clinical study.

Ansanelli VW.

Abstract

Review of the literature reveals little to no data regarding the use of the CO2 laser as a surgical modality in the local treatment of breast cancer. This study was undertaken to determine if the CO2 laser is a surgical improvement over the scalpel, influencing patient care during the surgical and postsurgical period. In the author's series, a total of 209 procedures were performed. Within this group, 105 cases were performed with CO2 laser and 104 cases performed with the scalpel. Biopsies were always performed as a separate procedure prior to definitive surgery. This study was not designed to compare cure rates, the medical follow-up period being 1 year. The results of this study demonstrate a significant improvement in patients' postoperative care, surgical technique, and hospital cost-effectiveness.

PMID:

3100894

marijen

So Sas, it looks like you're talking to yourself here? Just last night I woke up with my lx wound hurting. Still hurts from two years ago. Well I wish they had used a lazer scalpel. I've decided they double booked and my surgeon never touched me but left it to a student.

So what's the hold up in ten words or less?

sas-schatzi

Mari hahah......a, I do talk too myself a lot when I get into these science things. These basically are all transfer posts from Snowday's thread. Laying the groundwork to change the mastectomy world. I've done this kind of thing before. You don't move until your well educated about the upside , downside, inside, outside. Move to fast and you can crash and burn. You have to think about who we want to change their mind about this. The AMA and ACS. They haven't done it, prior to this. Yet C02 laser is used from head to foot, by lots of different practitioners.

Now try hard to think why that is?

sas-schatzi

The one person in the country doing this does the mastectomy under local with an anesthesiologist, surgery takes 1-2 hours, discharged home after an hour, on Tylenol. His patients have minimal blood loss during surgery, He limits lymph node dissection versus full dissection

sas-schatzi

Would you like a job? I have some very specific info I would like to have?

marijen

My guess is they use it from head to toe because.....duh..it’s a better method. What is the info you want and where are insomniac pals?

sas-schatzi

Mari,, hahaha. I came into the OR in 1974. the industry was on the brink of the technology revolution. Introduction of the modern cardiac monitors, open heart bypass machine, laproscope, totals(hip & knee), staples. Devices used in the body were mandated to be disposable i.e urinary catheters used to be reprocessed-sterilized.-----ewwwhhhhhhh. Cloth drapes, towels, gowns were replaced by paper everything. Stocks, I should have bought stocks, oops diverging.

The 1960's through the 1980's saw the biggest advancement in doing new ways of surgeries. Those that were stuck in the old ways were left behind. They waited out there time till retirement b/c patients flocked to docs that were doing the newer ways.

My first contact with a C02 laser was in interventional radiology in 1987 or 1988. A vascular case for a leg artery. It was a 500 bed teaching hospital. Even the Interventional radiologist was new subspecialty of AMA. He was the only one on staff. Now today IR docs are common. Plastics docs were using C02 for skin work in the late 80's.

Advancements, generally, started at the really major centers like Cleveland Clinic, Sloan Kettering, Mass General. The advancements then filtered to the next level of teaching hospitals.

Ansanelli was at a big eastern hospital. His work was groundbreaking. His approach to mastectomies was as groundbreaking as the change from radical mastectomies to modified radical mastectomy. Rather than being supported, they attempted to shut him down. He fought the system and he won.

In the interview (2016) by fox news linked in the first page, two docs are quoted as saying they (paraphrase) "There wasn't any research on the method, so they couldn't say if it was a good technique".

Their responses were in the stupid range. How's that hahaha. Blunt, but accurate. A successful application of the most advanced technology in the world, used by him since middle 1980's...... and no one, no one has jumped on the procedure for mastectomy except Ansanelli.

Goldman used the first laser on a patient in 1961 for a skin thing and then it was used for a patient with a melanoma of the eye. In finding this tidbit. I found an article that will lead to several people to contact and leads

sas-schatzi

https://spie.org/membership/spie-professional-magazine/spie-professional-archives-and-special-content/2011jan-archive/lasers-in-medicine?SSO=1

"Pioneer of laser medicine: Leon Goldman

No talk of laser medicine can occur without mentioning Leon Goldman, known as the "father of laser medicine."

Just a year after the laser was invented, Goldman became the first researcher to use a laser to treat a human skin disease. The technique he used paved the way for later developments in laser dermatology.

His research also led to the application of the ruby laser in retinal surgery in the mid 1960s and to discoveries such as lasers being able to simultaneously cut skin and seal blood vessels to restrict bleeding.

Goldman, who worked for much of his career as a dermatologist at the University of Cincinnati, founded the American Society for Lasers in Medicine and Surgery and helped lay the foundations of current safety assessments of lasers. He died in 1997. "

sas-schatzi

I love the internet. I ducked "laser assisted mastectomy" and then "laser mastectomy". I hadn't ducked it since my first search a couple of weeks ago. NOW many hits more than previously. I have found that since the beginning of browser searching, that this is very often the way it goes. Lot's more reading to do now.

Plus, both Snowday' s thread and this thread are in the top 20 responses.

Maybe to change the world all we have to keep doing is writing about it.

sas-schatzi

Laser ablation of breast tumors: article 2015

https://consumer.healthday.com/health-technology-information-18/lasers-and-laser-surgery-news-439/laser-a-breast-cancer-treatment-alternative-706011.html

Ablation--destruction of tissue and removal by heat i.e. radiofrequency, cold, or laser

Study not complete. This is a listing on clinicaltrial.gov

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00807924?term=laser&recrs=acdeghijklm&cond=Breast+Cancer&draw=2&rank=46

sas-schatzi

1988 Chicago Tribune article about laser breast cancer surgery. It was done by a science writer, but he didn't include a billiography.

Title: "Doctors: Laser Surgery For Breast Cancer Cuts Costs, Saves Time"

" Using lasers to perform breast cancer surgery dramatically reduces the pain and bleeding associated with the operation, two surgeons reported Monday. Patients also heal faster, go home from the hospital sooner, and get back to work more quickly, factors that can greatly reduce the cost of breast cancer surgery, the two physicians told the annual meeting of the American College of Surgeons."

Well, well, well in 1988 two docs told the ASC at it's annual meeting all these wonderful things about laser surgery. SOoooo, the Big Boys knew. Wait till I spread this around. I'm going to italicize keywords. Take a look at the estimated dollar cost savings per year. ACS knew and there was no push for research. Is it about the money?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-10-25/news/8802100154_1_breast-cancer-surgery-surgery-center-vessels-and-nerve-endings

docs from article: Dr. Vijay Maker MD, Chicago Illinois 773-296-7093

Dr. Philip B. Morris of the Surgery Center, Santa Rosa, Ca. No listing, assumed by locater web to be retired.

So far can't locate the study or if they wrote a study. Generally, presentations at national meetings are study driven. Exception to this is where an expert is requested to do a visionary speech about where the current research is heading.

This article is important b/c it tells us that the American Colleges of Surgeons knew in 1988 The advantages of mastectomy done by laser. What happened? Highly suspicious of suppression.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory, but I saw the internal workings of ACS in 1984 when I was involved with the development of Pre-Hospital Trauma Life Support (PHTLS). You would think discussions would be purely on excellence of a given program. NO, it was a battle between ACS and ACEP(American College of Emergency Physicians) on two similar trauma programs. Purely ego's. It caused a breach between the two groups, but the EMS community never knew why ACEP supported one program and ACS supported another program. It was simply that the Big Boys couldn't play together. The end result was that it affected whole states. A component of that was money

sas-schatzi

2013 article bout a phase1 clinical trial that uses laser followed by full mastectomy, chemo, radiation. Phase 2 will only use laser. The phase 2 trail may still be going on. Author of the article didn't link the trial number or name. maybe it's listed in clinicaltrial.gov

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2439464/Photodynamic-laser-treatment-kill-breast-cancer-15-minutes.html

In this article it refers to Photodynamic Therapy. Laser is only one tool.

" Photodynamic therapy (PDT) is another type of cancer treatment that uses lasers. In PDT, a certain drug, called a photosensitizer or photosensitizing agent, is injected into a patient and absorbed by cells all over the patient's body. After a couple of days, the agent is found mostly in cancer cells. Laser light is then used to activate the agent and destroy cancer cells. Because the photosensitizer makes the skin and eyes sensitive to light afterwards, patients are advised to avoid direct sunlight and bright indoor light during that time. (More information about PDT is available in the NCI fact sheet Photodynamic "

marijen

Awesome Sas, and I thought I was dreaming it up - PDT. Where can we go for treatment? Jumping the gun?

sas-schatzi

: ).......Use keywords " Photodynamic and lasers" "Approved Photodynamic facilities" I don't know if they need approval, but may pull something. "Name photodynamic chemical" "Name photodynamic drug" Shucks I forget what I came back to do...........

sas-schatzi

mari, I found this looking for something else. It's photodynamic drugs being studied

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01872923?term=laser&recrs=acdeghijklm&cond=Breast+Cancer&draw=3&rank=47

It's at the bottom of the list. #47 It says study is complete. But it hasn't been published yet. I put this same link a few boxes back. The study has a common person from Novalis(sic). I can call her and find out what's up

Yes, PDT does sound promising.

I'm done for today Have a nice afternoon.

marijen

Thanks Sas, I'm very interested now in all of it. Just in case you know. Both sound better than what we've all been put through. Thanks for all your continuing hard work on this matter. Very important stuff here. Where is everyone else? Maybe you should have made the topic more fun! ) Have a great afternoon too.