Taking the Holistic Approach

trudys

I was currently diagnoised with stage 1A Invasive Ductal Carcinoma,. My tumor is about 14mm. I have already changed my diet and have started taking Dim and Brevail. Lots of Raw Veggies and Pomegrate. I have my lumpectomy on Friday, and I am opting out of Radiation, Chemo and Hormone Treatments. Going to Try cbd instead without the thc. Any thoughts I am scared to death.

Fallleaves

Hi Trudys,

Sounds like you are already doing a lot of good things to protect your health. I know this is a very stressful time, but you WILL get through it! I would also recommend taking melatonin at night (3 to 5 mg). Most people think of it for use sleeping, or with jet lag, but I have been reading a lot about it's value in preventing and treating breast cancer. It can also be used to reduce preoperative anxiety (5-10 mg. taken 30-60 min. before surgery) There was a Cochrane Review (which looks at all the studies on the subject) that found it was effective in reducing anxiety related to surgery.

Also, beta glucans, which are found in maitake mushrooms and the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae, may have a positive effect on the immune system. I recently ran across a small study of cancer patients that showed taking maitake d-fraction ( a liquid form) caused increased NK cell activity. Natural Killer cells are what go after the cancer cells in our bodies.

Whatever you can do to reduce stress--- exercise, walking in the woods, meditating, is to your benefit. Just take care of yourself. This is scary stuff, but it looks like you caught it very early on. Sending lots of warm wishes your way!

dlb823

Trudys, do you know what grade your bc is? Knowing what I do now, I think that would somewhat impact my thinking on the choices you or anyone decides to make with a very small bc. And you say you are opting out of chemo. Since you haven't had your surgery yet -- so I assume an Oncotype-DX test on your lesion to determine a number of factors about it not available from the initial biopsy hasn't been done -- was chemo recommended for you? And one more thing -- have you had an MRI prior to your lumpectomy -- just to be sure the 14mm lesion is the only one you're dealing with? If you take a moment to read my bio page, you'll see why that can be extremely important.

I have no problem with a well-thought out holistic approach, and have always lived a very holistic approach to my own health. But from my own bc experience, I just want to be very sure you don't underestimate the potential for future problems even a small lesion can present. (((Hugs))), and good luck with your surgery tomorrow! Deanna

bluepearl

I am reading a book about women's stories in having breast cancer. Many were athletic, organic eaters, thin, and still got cancer. The only thing John Hopkins recommends is brassica tea. Try that. But, please.....maybe if you don't want the radiation, consider a mastectomy?

Hernie

"From what we know now, it is quite clear that cannabis does not cure cancer, at least not by itself and certainly not ingested or smoked as marijuana or ingested or applied topically as hemp oil. Even in purified form, naturally-derived or synthetic cannabinoid agonists show relatively modest antitumor activity in preclinical models, which means that they will have to be combined with existing chemotherapeutic regimens."

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/medical-marijuana-as-the-new-herbalism-part-2-cannabis-does-not-cure-cancer/

pipers_dream

trudys, it can be done. Look into pectasol and IP6 also. Also, on the melatonin, my holistic doc has me taking 15-20 mg/night and you want to make sure that your bedroom is completely dark at night. Studies have found that blind women have a less than half chance of getting BC and folks who live in brightly lit neighborhoods have a higher chance of getting BC.

BeachLife

Piper, does your holistic doc test you on ip6? My naturopath tested all my supplements, and ip6 was one of the four that he said do not agree with me. It has been sitting in my cupboard. Sleepingin darkness is very important as study found people who work at night (such as nurse) have higher risk of BC.

marijen

Piper, I wish. My eyes are sensitive. I wear dark glasses in the rain, turn the lights off constantly, keep the drapes mostly closed and went to bed at 10 pm for decades. Still got BC.

ChiSandy

Show me those studies. (And I want to see the sources and the methodologies). I suspect that the reason that night workers get BC more often (if indeed they do) is not more exposure to light but disruption in circadian rhythms. Night workers do not work nights all their lives, so they don’t get a chance to acclimate to a consistent upside-down biorhythm; those who stay night-shift consistently over a long enough period still often revert to daylight patterns of sleep-wake when on vacation. Intermittent shift workers have even worse health overall. And the underlying state of health (and the presence or absence of inflammation and impact on the immune system are probably the phenomena that lowers resistance to carcinogenesis and genetic mutation). Saying the difference is one of too much or too little light at the wrong time is a gross oversimplification and utterly unscientific. It is some other property of melatonin--probably its ability to encourage the body to secrete hormones and enzymes that regulate and normalize sleep patterns (without the disruption of sleep phases--especially REM--caused by other OTC and Rx sleep aids) and thus allow the body to heal cell damage--that is what makes it protective against cancer.

Momine

At stage 1A, I would be really surprised if any doc would suggest chemo for you. The hormone treatment gives only a tiny advantage at such an early stage. It cuts the recurrence risk in half, which sounds impressive (and it is for someone like me), but in your case the recurrence risk is tiny, so half of very little isn't very much.

Have you discussed the possibility of a one-shot radiation during surgery? I forget what it is called, but I think it is in use for cases like yours.

pipers_dream

This is just the first link I found when I googled: "CATEGORY*: IARC probable carcinogen

FOUND IN: Night shift workers

THE GIST: Women exposed to artificial light during night-time hours, especially night shift workers, experience a higher incidence of breast cancer than other women. Scientists believe melatonin, a hormone that helps prevent tumor formation, offers the best explanation for the link, because the body produces high amounts of melatonin at night, and melatonin levels drop in the presence of light. In 2007, the International Agency for Research on Cancer concluded that shift work is "probably carcinogenic to humans," and the World Health Organization deemed shift work a probable carcinogen.

State of the Evidence on Shift Work, Light-at-Night and Melatonin

In 2007, the International Agency for Research on Cancer concluded that shift work is "probably carcinogenic to humans," based in large part on the growing association between night-shift work and increased incidence of breast cancer (Stevens, 2011; Straif, 2007).

Several occupational studies have demonstrated that women who consistently work night shifts have increased breast cancer risk, although not all reports have found evidence for this relationship. Methodological differences between studies, including definitions of "shift work" and "night," as well as lack of consistent attention to confounding factors such as sleep deprivation or other lifestyle factors, may explain some of the differences in results between individual studies (Bonde, 2012; Costa, 2010; Stevens, 2011). Two major reviews of the literature, one examining only studies of night-shift nurses (Kolstad, 2008) and a second looking at studies of airline crews and other night-shift workers (Megdal, 2005), reached the conclusion that long-term experience (several years) in night-shift work increases risk for breast cancer. . . ." Read the rest

Marijen, I'm sorry you got BC anyway, but there's too many factors and many more to be discovered I'm sure. I must admit though, this is an interesting time to be dealing with BC, what with all the new info coming out every day and we have access to it all on the internet. For that I am so grateful.

pipers_dream

"Piper, does your holistic doc test you on ip6? My naturopath tested all my supplements, and ip6 was one of the four that he said do not agree with me. "

There is an informal energy medicine test you can do on your own--it can give you rough idea: you take the substance in question and hold it in your hands in front of you and allow your body to go still--at first you will sway around a little but let that die down. Wait. . . . wait. . . . eventually your body will fall forward or backward. If forward, you're good. If backward, stay away. My body says IP6 is very good for me. Not so science-y but it's fun to try. I take the pills out of the bottle before I do it.

Fallleaves

I think light at night (LAN) causes circadian rhythm disruption by decreasing melatonin. Here's a good review article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21605163

I'd put melatonin in my top three for supplements for it's anti-cancer benefits, and after everything I've read, I have become a believer in absolute dark at night! I wonder now if being a night owl for many years might have been a contributory factor in getting BC. I don't think any one thing causes cancer, but some things may make it easier to take hold. I'm also beginning to feel that psychological stress plays a bigger role in cancer progression that we realize.

leggo

Fallleaves,

pipers_dream

Yep fallleaves, right there with you too.

BeachLife

Piper：thank you for the self test method. It makes sense!

Fall leaves: Agree, life style and psychological stress are huge. I have been eating organic (mostly) and taking vitamins for 20 years, still got BC. Certainly sleep and psychological stress were factors, so I am sleeping earlier amongst other life style changes and learning to take different perspective.

CynthiaB

Hello Trudys,

I have a similar diagnosis and here is what I have learned so far. I had Invasive Lobular Carcinoma in my right breast (and a diagnosis of LCIS 3 years ago in the left). Due to the nature of LCIS (tends to hit both breasts and did in my case) I chose a bi lateral mastectomy, but that decision was based on the Lobular v. Ductal diagnosis. I was just tired of worrying about it coming back and on-going tests. My nodes were clear and my tumor was 1.7 cm so the person who posted that you might want an MRI prior to surgery, might be a good move. They found a lot of bad activity in the MRI and even more once they did the post mastectomy surgery. I'm not suggesting a mastectomy for you....sounds like the lumpectomy will be sufficient (especially with DCIS). Even with my Stage 1A cancer (almost 1B), my oncologists have not recommended radiation or chemo. Until they have the post lumpectomy pathology they shouldn't be recommending chemo for you...perhaps radiation (do you agree other bc ladies?).

My next big decision, which comes tomorrow is Femara or no? I am struggling with this but I am also pressing my oncologists for support information for side effects and hormone regulation and overall health recommendations. I have found however that you don't get a lot of support from oncologists in this regard (or is that just my experience?).

3 years ago when I was diagnosed with Stage 0 cancer (LCIS) I visited with and had Genova Hormone Testing with a natural remedy doctor. I made some lifestyle changes but apparently not enough. I plan to see this doctor again and see if I can reasonably regulate my Estrogen and other hormones and use sensible diet, exercise and stress reduction...not only to reduce the symptoms of the Femara but to naturally regulate the hormones. I am at low risk for remission BUT the risk isn't low if you're the one who gets cancer again.

Hang in there Trudys...........it's very stressful and frightening but if I can do it, anyone can. (world class worrier here).

Momine

Just a question on "hormone regulation." It seems to be a hot topic in alternative health circles, and not just in the context of BC. What I do not understand is the following: if the cancer is ER+, for example, this means that any and all circulating estrogen will be "snapped up" by receptors on the cancer cells and fuel the cancer. Having your hornones in perfect balance may theoretically (I have yet to find any reliable, clear, scientific explanation of how this is supposed to work) reduce your estrogen levels somewhat, but won't stop estrogen from circulating. So, how are these balancing methods supposed to help against the cancer?

BrooksideVT

I asked my onc about this, Momine, because I had read (right here) about the benefits of DIM. He indicated that as I am post menopausal, my ovaries are not contributing any estrogen at all. My body therefore manufactures estrogen from only one source (comes down to those fat cells we already hate for so many reasons), so there is no estrogen to balance. I think maybe this is an issue for pre menopausal women only? Basically, what my onc said is that even with anti-hormonal meds, it is helpful to reduce the estrogen our bodies produce and the best way to do this is (sadly) to lose weight.

Heidihill

The supposed benefit of DIM (from a plant nutrient also in broccoli and cruciferous veggies) is through estrogen metabolism. It may allow estrogen to be metabolized through a beneficial pathway as opposed to a bad pathway, where the good pathway is responsible for good skin, healthy heart and bones and the bad pathway is responsible for breast and other gynecological cancers. I am not so sure how solid this theory is nor if there have been clinical trials.

BrooksideVT

A beneficial pathway sounds great for any estrogen wandering around and being metabolized, but it seems to me that if ER receptors have already grabbed onto some of that estrogen, then how it is going to be metabolized is up to those nasty cancer cells, not the healthy cells elsewhere in our bodies. As this is the first time I've read about those pathways, please overlook my ignorance if my understanding is too simplistic, but for me, it seems DIM would be more helpful before menopause, and probably before the cancer has developed.

I'm more than open to responses.

Fallleaves

I think things are a lot more complicated than you have estrogen receptors or you don't. There is estrogen receptor beta, as well, which varies in expression from estrogen receptor alpha (the one we are all tested for). And it seems to work oppositely. Sometimes. Although, ER beta 1 works differently than ER beta 2 and ER betacx. And there are differences between IDC and ILC. At this point I'm pretty confused....

"Recent molecular ER technologies have clarified the differential isoform (ER-α and -β) contributions to overall breast tumour ER-positivity. Whereas ER-α drives proliferation of mammary epithelial cells, implying a valid therapeutic target, ER-β is associated with differentiation of normal breast cells [32], mediates the preventive benefits of exercise and parity [33] on breast cancer incidence, and may directly inhibit breast cancer progression [34]. Unlike IDCs, however, in which both ER-α and -β tend to be similarly co-expressed, ILCs display a reciprocal relationship between ER-α and ER-β, with abnormally high ER-α levels but subnormal expression of ER-β [35]. The pro-differentiation action of ER-β is mediated in part via direct transcriptional upregulation of E-cadherin, in turn repressing the oncogenic Wnt pathway via nuclear β-catenin [36]; the association of low ER-β levels with tamoxifen resistance and reduced survival benefit from adjuvant hormone therapy [37] may therefore be clinically relevant to ILC."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC423642... (Wong, 2014)

"High normal lobule ERβ expression conferred the strongest protective effect in premenopausal women: the 20-year cumulative incidence of breast cancer was 0% for women younger than 45 years with high versus 31% for low-moderate ERβ expression (P = 0.0008). High ERβ expression was associated with a significantly decreased risk of breast cancer in women with atypical hyperplasia. These data suggest that ERβ may be a useful biomarker for risk stratification and a novel therapeutic target for breast cancer risk reduction."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26276747
(Hieken, 2015)

"In summary, ERβ1 or ERβ2 appear to interfere with ERα function and downregulate ERα downstream genes. Therefore, the presence of ERβ1 or ERβ2 could affect the sensitivity to drugs that directly bind ERα, that is, tamoxifen or raloxifene."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC440987... (Omoto, 2015)

Also, some supplements seem to work through estrogen receptor beta (silibinin is in milk thistle):

ERβ up-regulation was involved in silibinin-induced growth inhibition of human breast cancer MCF-7 cells.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26767948
(Zheng, 2016)

ERα down-regulation plays a key role in silibinin-induced autophagy and apoptosis in human breast cancer MCF-7 cells.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26117209
(Zheng, 2015)

JohnSmith

@Heidihill and others interested in DIM.

In terms of DIM, there is a Phase II clinical trial called: "Diindolylmethane (DIM) in Treating Patients With Breast Cancer". [NCT01391689]

Purpose: This phase II trial studies how well di-indolylmethane (DIM) works and compares it to placebo in treating patients with breast cancer. DIM may slow the growth of tumor cells and be an effective treatment for breast cancer.
- Basically, the trial is trying to determine if adding DIM to Tamoxifen has a synergistic (enhanced) effect.

Enrollment: 144 patients
Study Start Date: Feb 2011
Estimated Study Completion Date: Sept 2016
Primary Completion Date: Sept 2014 (Final data collection date for primary outcome measure)

Sponsor: University of Arizona
Principal Investigator: Dr. Cynthia Thomson
Her Bio: http://uacc.arizona.edu/profile/cynthia-thomson

It's also referred to as the "DIME Study", which can be read here.

Here's Dr. Cynthia Thomson's grant abstract, which describes the rationale behind the clinical trial - it's worth a read.

The trial appears to wrap up this year, so maybe we will hear results at the 2016 SABCS in December.

ChiSandy

If despite hormone-inhibiting therapy postmenopausal women still make enough estrogen that fat loss (via weight loss) is still necessary to prevent or slow tumor-cell proliferation, would liposuction be useful--especially when estrogen-reduction via AIs slows metabolism to the point where weight-loss via lifestyle changes is difficult-to-impossible?

pipers_dream

For kayb: Cancer Incidence and Mortality After Gastric Bypass Surgery One must be careful here though b/c there is concern that meds like tamoxifen may not be properly absorbed if one has the surgery. It says there though that cancer mortality from all cancers was 46% lower than that in controls and that even includes cancers not associated with obesity.

Heidihill

Thanks for the trial info, JohnSmith.

Regarding absorption, maybe we could one day have an anti-hormonal patch pump just like some diabetics use insulin patch pumps. Continuous delivery might also reduce dosing and side effects. I wonder.

gemini4

ChiSandy, I would love liposuction to become part of our treatment! ;-)

My unscientific understanding is that liposuction doesn't prevent new fat cells. So presumably, if someone is maintaining fat due to slow metabolism or overeating prior to liposuction, new fat will form somewhere else if the same diet continues after the procedure. Anecdotally, my sister had liposuction on her thighs; she gained weight a few years later, and it appeared in areas that had never beenfat for her (arms and belly).

trudys

Thank -you all or your kind advice and support. I have had the lumpectomy and three nodes taken out. It had been 3 weeks and I am mending slowly. I did opt out o the hormone therapy and the radiation. I was told with radiation I had maybe a 5% chance o it coming back and without only 20% so I will work on just helping my body head and taking the dim and maitake d-fraction.

betsyross

Hi trudys

I was also recently diagnosed ----did the lumpectomy for 2 tumors both very small in the right breast with 0/4 and clean margins and 8 days away from finishing radiation I was given anastrazole/Arimidex. I am terrified to take it based on what I have read about SEs. I am considering the DIM and calcium d- glucarate instead. This is all very confusing and scary. I hope it all works out for you.

Anonymous

Hi Trudys,

I opted out of chemo after gaining as much information as I could from different oncologists. I'm taking beta glucan, I think someone here mentioned it. I also gave up all dairy products and I hardly ever eat beef now. An old friend, who is Vietnamese, told me "no more meat!". And mind you, Asian cultures hardly ever consume dairy products and their rates of breast cancer are much lower than Western countries.

The idea of chemo for early stage, slow growing cancers didn't make sense to me from the start. Why not help the body fight its own battle instead of damaging it. I wish you the best going forward. Keep researching because you never know what you might find.