Lumpectomy Wed/opting out of radiation. Like minded...? :)

Momine

Abigail, running a marathon is not proof that you are not a quack. It could simply be that Mr. Null is blessed with good health from nature.

abigail48

gary has good health because he does everything right. never been sick except once when a maufacturer put too much vitamine d into a product of his. vegan most of his life and vegetarian from childhood. subscribes to and reads many of the health double blind studies and practices what he reads. & reports on them in his radio broadcasts m-f noon est on progressive radio network, which recently I havn't been able to listen to because of unknown reasons. he says he's often hacked because of his broadcasts on vaccines. & he's actually 71, according to what he says and I think he fudged a little because he wanted to be known as a baby boomer & so was born in jan 43 not jan 46. boomers began to be born in th fall of 45 when the ww2 warriors returned home & began conceiving them. his father was a judge and a bar owner & had no military service that I've heard. He's doing a marathon next year & so for the 2 years before then he trains 6 hrs a day. as for his genetics his parents smoked and drank and died early. his brother said I've smoked for years and don't have cancer. He' got it a few years later. I cold go on

windingshores

Abigail, I was being gently ironic in saying that mastectomy may be the most holistic treatment, but I actually believe that. As for being alternative, I tend toward being integrative/complementary but because I am unable to take meds, often go the naturopathic route. That said, there is very little information on pathology results so I would think some of us would be uncomfortable commenting on an approach that leaves out the usual things like radiation or hormonals.  If the grade was low, or Oncotype low, I would feel much more comfortable. I myself am going to see someone about vitamin C or other alternative approaches next week.  I have given up gluten, sugar, dairy.  I exercise.  But after surgery and on hormonals, at least for now.

I just would need to know more in order to comment safely here.

windingshores

I think it is important to say that we did not cause our cancers. The idea that by somehow living right we can avoid spread and worsening of our disease would seem to imply that if we had done some things differently, we would not have gotten breast cancer. This is a real blaming of the victim.

Cancer is still a mystery at the cellular level, but it is doubtful that causes are under our control. Some triggers, perhaps, such as hormonal supplements. But not everyone using those supplements, or those living on Dunkin Donuts and watching tv all day for that matter, get cancer.

I guess this the problem with holistic philosophies. One of my kids got type 1 diabetes at age 4. She was an innocent who breastfed and had a nice temperament. She has suffered for 20 years. Cancer patients are no different: something went wrong with the incredibly complex system that is our bodies.

I have two friends who died of cancer. One relied on a dietary approach, the other didn't treat her early breast cancer. Sorry, but unless I read information here that says it is stage 0, grade 1 DCIS  I am going to come on here and say that mastectomy with paravertebral block and SND may be the most holistic way to go.

abigail48

In 1964 I took 1st tier mexican sheep estrogen pills, continued taking usa birth control pills for 10 years. long before my family dr had prescribed a month of them for excessive bleeding at my monthly period. I took those for ony one month. in 1010 I began juicing fennel. stopped after a year when I finally got online & discovered it was extremely estrogenic. a few months later the lagest of th cysts Id had since 1964 began coming through the skin. now th tumor is growing again 7 takes up mst of my breast. Yes I think it was my fault, my igmorance if hhou will

ChiSandy

Abigail, Dr. George Sheehan--a conventional-medicine cardiologist--ran marathons into his 70s. Jackrabbit Johanssen (sp?) competitively ran and cross-country ski-raced past age 100....and he ate a Nordic diet that included meat, dairy and refined carbs. Gary Null is athletic into old age in large part because he won the genetic lottery, not necessarily because he practices a vegan/holistic/organic lifestyle. Eat what makes you feel subjectively better (both physically and in terms of your conscience), but don’t kid yourself that not doing so would cause cancer or recurrence thereof. Null is a layman, and his “training” is either self-taught or from scientifically questionable organizations & sources. He is not giving advice out of the goodness of his heart--he is making money from it, just as any medically-qualified expert would (and should). He sells his books and supplies. Someone who makes money by giving medical advice for which he has no objective scientific qualifications is a quack--especially when he’s aiming his unproven claims at people desperate for hope.

abigail48

& I I think lost the genetic lottery" re the excessive bleeding when pre menoausal. actually I dont think there's been a week in my life when I've not bled from somewhere. not a person who should be prescribed estrogens. bythe way take a look at gary, his physyque doesn't come eating refined sugar and scotch whisky sugar for instance

ChiSandy

A quack can be in magnificent physical shape and still be a quack. And some of the best doctors can look like hell. I had a hand surgeon who was also a plastic surgeon--he was stooped-over and sort of homely. But he cured my trigger thumb, and his plastic surgery patients all came out looking gorgeous.

As to your having been mis-prescribed HRT, I sympathize. I never considered it--was so glad to be rid of my periods. Had long since abandoned hope of having a second child, and was sick of bleeding for 6 days every 3-1/2 weeks since before my 11th birthday. At almost 55, I had a 6-WEEK period...which turned out, thank heavens, to have been the last hurrah. I had long ago decided that if my body’s own estrogen was not my friend, I wasn’t going to introduce any more estrogen. Still got bc--probably because of early menarche, late menopause, late childbirth (33), only one kid, and short (6 wks) and difficult breastfeeding. I shudder to think what more estrogen would have done.

Bcky

I have an Applied Science of Holistic Health Degree. I think when we are first dx'ed shock plays a major part in our decision making. It did for me. As I read and researched more about just how serious and devastating Breast Cancer is I became willing to really do what I had to to get rid of the potential of BC recurrence. I had a lumpectomy at first. It was all I could bare to do emotionally. Going from thinking I was healthy to cancer diagnosis is incredibly shocking and I could not do anything but beg for a quick lumpectomy. Get that cancer out of me! I was measured for radiation and tattooed. In my research because I had a heart defect from birth radiation seemed dangerous. I took it upon myself to see the head radiologist and see exactly how much of my heart and lungs would be radiated. On finding out 20% of my lungs and roughly that of my heart would be radiated I declined radiation. Left Breast radiation exposes the heart and lungs to rads. I had a Uni MX. I wanted an MX on both breasts but most surgeons will not MX a healthy breast and mine would not. On researching rads and their potential for causing lung cancer and heart problems I opted that Mastectomy was the best option. Then I had an Oncotype done. It was a very low oncotype score and chemo was not neccassary but again my choice. I consulted two Oncos as to what they would do and neither would do chemo with my Onco stats. I take Tamoxifen. I am no longer a 100% Holistic person that thinks baking soda and cottage cheese diet will be enough. I am being Snarkey a bit. I would say that research and more research of genuine medical research documents helped me make a better decision. Reading thoroughly the Stage 4 diagnosis forums/threads on here made it clear to me that Breast Cancer even at Stage 1 is a really really serious situation and Stage 4 is not ever a destination I would want to go. As time goes on and I see that Chemotherapy is bearable for most and that there are medications to soothe side effects I kind of regret not doing chemo. I believe radiating/poisoning/ cutting of cancer is really horrible. I always say "pick your poison" is the way cancer is treated. What I hear is like myself I want a Cure not a poisonous treatment that will put me in remission but I can never claim cured. Living uncured of a terminal disease but NED (No Evidence of Disease) is a hard and at times horrible way to live. Managing the fear etc. But it is all we have. I wish there was an organic Cure for cancer. A certified cure not just a "cure" that has "cured" some and secretly killed or allowed others to die as they went into Stage 4. I support all Holistic methods and I am implenting many and will impliment more as time goes on. I just hate to see anyone get terminally ill or progress to Stage 4. If you choose to go all natural and holistic bare in mind that there was a gal with Stage2 BC on Oprah years ago that decided the Holistic Organic way. She used the Secret and it's literature theories in physics to affirm her wellness. Oprah and everyone thought she could cure herself. She died a few years later a horrible painful Stage 4 death. That is what concerns me about going all Holistic and not implenting some very neccasary modern methods as well. As time goes on I wish I had done Chemo. Chemo is a terrible poison to the body. Because I did not do rads no one knows how many stray cancer cells Tamoxifen has been left to kill.My oncologist said there can be 10 cancer cells or 10 thousand in my body. I took a gamble not doing chemo because if there are 10 thousand cancer cells in my body I very well may become Stage 4 in years to come. My cells were grade 3 meaning Aggressive. People can heal from the toxicity of chemo and go on and live well with a few side effects. People also die from Chemo reactions. If I get Stage 4 you can bet I will regret not doing chemo because I was personally very niave about how often reccurance happens and ill educated about the tremendous suffering Stage 4 entails. In short I really wish there were an Organic Certified Cure for us. Right now there is not. I am sorry poisoning our bodies is a treatment for cancer but that is what is available. I also have a Fine Art degree and some of my poetry will be published in February. I write lengthy posts but it is because I care. I care about me and all my BC friends.

windingshores

Great post and describes my own path pretty well too. Genomic Health told me that 30% of grade 3's have low Oncotype. I don't know if it helps but my understanding from Genomic Health is that a low Oncotype doesn't just let us out of chemo in favor of anti-estrogen therapy. It also means that chemo wouldn't work that well for us and maybe isn't the risk to general mortality.

One other thing, for ChiSandy. I breastfed three kids for three years each. If you add that 9 years to the three pregnancy periods, that is over 11 years of no periods.  I still got breast cancer.

Bcky

windingshores yes the Oncotype said clearly that Tamoxifen was less dangerous and added more years to my life whereas chemo would cause like a 2% higher mortality rate. Also that basically chemo would do more harm then good because of the type of cancer cells not the grade. I think my PTSD from BC makes me have regrets and fears that make no logical sense because I want to be cured not just NED. I breastfed both my kids but not long enough. Holistic approaches I totally support but even Wayne Dyer died of Parkinsons. He was a highly evolved spiritual holistic man who I am sure saw the best Holistic PHDs out there. Breast Cancer just sucks.

ChiSandy

Even people who do everything right eventually die. Not “sometimes die.” Always die. Something has to get us in the end--whether it’s our cancer metastasizing, heart attack or stroke if our cancer remains dormant long enough for us to reach our statistically-predicted life expectancy, or some natural or induced disaster.

Bcky, don’t second-guess your decision to forgo chemo. With such a low oncotype, not only would it have done more harm than good, it might not have done ANY good at all, because your tumor cells were not the type that is vulnerable to it. You haven’t shortened your life, and you wisely chose to avoid impacting its quality any more than you had to.

And just because you chose some allopathic treatments doesn’t mean you are no longer “holistic.” It means you’ve chosen to be integrative and complementary rather than completely “alternative.” “Holistic” means treating the patient as a whole person rather than as the carrier of a disorder--treating and respecting all aspects of a patient’s life (physical, emotional, spiritual) and choosing treatments that optimize the integrity of all those aspects.

Bcky

ChiSandy Thankyou. I just feel I went from an all organic person that was against synthetic/modern drugs and generally used only homeopathic stuff and herbal tinctures to a person that learned the value of and appreciate that synthetic modern drugs exist. I am so grateful for Tamoxifen. I am grateful that should BC reccur chemo is available if I need it. I also thought antidepressants were basically poisonous to the kidneys and that a person needed to do the spiritual/emotional/psychological and physical work to overcome anxiety and depression. You can say I love and appreciate Effexor and Ativan now. I am very very glad they exist. I am no longer a totally organic gal. There are good things about modern synthetic and/or chemical based medicines, etc.

Bcky

Breast Cancer has been a shocker. I research and read allot about it at least three days a week. In 1998 I worked at a Health food Grocery Store while in college getting my first degree in Fine Art. I would ride my bike three miles there and back. I worked out 4x a week and could lift 160lbs with my legs no problems. My job was to serve fruit smoothies that I made with fresh fruit and spirulina/ protien mixes. I also served fresh wheat grass shots. A few women that had BC would come in and get their hand ground wheat grass shots everyday. I was so smug and ignorant I thought I would never get Breast Cancer. LOL Wrong. BC hits the healthiest of us as well. Breast Cancer is a very intelligent disease and the more I read about it the more I fear it. It sends out biochemicals to the organs it intends to invade. Tricking the organ into welcoming it. Once it is there it disables that organs immuno respose. That explains why a dear friend of mine that is a health nut has had three recurences and is now stage 4. Cancer is a cruel intelligent disease.

exbrnxgrl

Bcky,

I think you have expressed, very clearly, the reality of bc and it's treatment, regardless of what we wish it would be. I doubt there is a single person out there who doesn't want there to be a non-toxic, organic, do no harm cure. That would be amazing, but for now, it's just a pipe dream. Are there folks out there who have gone totally alt and never recurred? Anecdotally, yes, but anecdotes make it hard to say what worked and what didn't. Someone once said, "The plural of anecdote is not data." Now, I realize data is not important to some, but it is critical if we want to say, unequivocally, that x works and y doesn't, as well as what percentage of the time and under what circumstances (among many other criteria).

We can all help ourselves by living well, be it exercise, nutrition and being happy. There is no such thing as "doing everything right" and certainly no guarantees even if you believe there is.

I will say that regardless of the choices we ultimately make, we must know what we're dealing with. So I would urge anyone facing bc, to not self dx or make tx decisions until you know exactly what you have. Even a biopsy is not the final word. Pathology reports after lumpectomy or mastectomy can differ from initial biopsy results. In the end we do make our own decisions.

PS: Beth in RI, if you are wondering why there may not be a lot of enthusiasm for alt tx here, check out the forum description. Though it does say that this is a safe place for alt tx discussion, it goes on to note, in bold, that bco does not recommend or endorse alternative medicine.

abigail48

can;t know if x does or does not work if you use non-ex to find out

Michele2013

Or you could be like me and get heart failure from chemo. Onc said only 3% get this.

I got my pacemaker/difibulator today:(

Feeling pissed right now.

Meow13

There are plenty of people that did radiation and chemo who are longer with us too. Does it help maybe yes maybe no.

pipers_dream

I think there are so many reasons why one might get BC that it's almost impossible to pinpoint anything. It's such an individual disease, though there are things we can look at and say it might be likely that it was part of the cause. In my case, my lifestyle was so unhealthy and I had such a toxic heavy metal burden that cleaning up my diet, exercising, and a great deal of detox has at least stopped the growth of the tumor and allowed me to feel better than I ever have. For someone like me, holistic is the way to go, but I didn't have so much to lose as some of you either--my kids are grown and on their own and I have no partner and even my dog is getting older. It just made sense for me and I did have the luxury of a choice.

Momine

Michele, I am so sorry. I had the red devil as well, and my onc sat behind me during the whole first infusion, with a stethoscope on my heart, to make sure my heart was ok.

Bcky

exbmxgirl I have said to BC friends that I would of rather dealt with the horror of a full amputation of a limb due to an accident and be able to walk on and enjoy my life "cured" then to have had this disease where NED and remmission is the best I can hope for and have now. Living with whether it will come back or not day after day has led me to need psychiatry and a psychologist because the first BC dx and surgeries was so horrifying psychologically for me. I had to have a PET and MRI when I was first diagnosed as there were questions about shadows on my ribs and Stage 4 was a question in the beginning. BC stole my very sense of quiet well being and sense of serenity that no matter what I had my health. Living with "Is this disease going to kill me? In a reccrance in 7 years or 20?" has been hard and exhausting. A true stressor. I also have mild lymphodema so BC destroyed my career as a Licensed Massage Therapist. I need to retrain my massage techniques after I had spent years and 1000s of hours perfecting a technique. It has messed with my finances etc. We all know what I am talking about. The FEAR.

Pipers_Dream I so admire your fortitude; strength and courageous decision making about BC in your life. Your dedication and knowledge about Holistic healing and practice thereof is awesome. I have read all your posts in the last year. Since dx in October of 2014 I have been reading this forum far more than talking. I am so glad your holistic path is working for you and I totally support your choice.

Michelle and Momine I have BC friends from the two support groups I go to and one of my BC friends has Congestive Heart failure now. I mentioned AC chemo and asked if that was her treatment and it was. Both her Cardio and Onco docs refuse to admit it is AC chemo that caused it. But we all know that Congestive Heart Failure is not common in women in their late 40s and early 50's unless they had the 'red devil'. What is it that these Oncs refuse to warn patients of risks or they minimize or they deny. I had one rad assistant RN finally agree that rads would cause heart and lung damage in my case but that person also said to me that even though I would be damaged the damage would not show up for a good 10 to 15 years. If I were 60 I could accept that but not at 47. Gosh!

Needless to say Cancer Care. Standard of Care. The care I recieved frightened me deeply. To top it off the Oncs said I had to choose my method of care. I felt like I was in a game of Russian Roulette and if I made a wrong choice I could pay for it with my life later. No one Oncologist ever coincided with the other in opinion about my DX and the treatment I should do. Except 2 said no to chemo. It was maddening and increased my fright to where I had to get psychological help and meds. It was too much.

pipers_dream

"Pipers_Dream I so admire your fortitude; strength and courageous decision making about BC in your life. Your dedication and knowledge about Holistic healing and practice thereof is awesome. I have read all your posts in the last year. Since dx in October of 2014 I have been reading this forum far more than talking. I am so glad your holistic path is working for you and I totally support your choice."

Bcky, thank you for your kind words. I don't know if I'm brave or crazy--almost everyone I know is willing to file me into one of those folders! I do think that part of it is that I'm more afraid of the treatment and losing my mobility--I read what others on here go thru and it makes me very afraid--truly I have more confidence in what I'm doing and even if it shortens my life span I'll feel that it's been worth it. One of the reasons I'm not afraid of dying is that I've always been fascinated by accounts of near-death experiences and I feel very strongly that we have a great thing to look forward to--not that I'm willing to hurry it up any but I'm not afraid of it. I am afraid of the pain I may have to go thru to get there but I don't dwell on it much. By contrast I am much more afraid of aging. So you see--I'm just as afraid as everyone else--just of different things and I'm trying to work thru those fears. Holistic healing is just as much, if not more, mental and emotional.

JuniperCat

Bcky, Hello! Where will your poetry appear?

BeachLife

I have been following some of the discussions and learned a lot from here. Now I would like to share some info. I have always loved Chamomile tea for reducing anxiety and helping with sleep, etc. The last two months, I have been including it in my enema often with coffee. I came across the following info on apigenin. Apigenin in chamomile tea and other foods (parsley, onions, apples, celery roots, orange jiuce……）fight cancer of thyroid, breast, etc. Hope this helps. Take care everyone

http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/mediterranean-diet-...

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive...

BethinRI

Started an FB group for those who find that forum easier, it doesn't exclude people for their choices... https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120264538013507 Breast Cancer Alternatives.

gemini4

BethinRI,how did your surgery go?

53nancy

BethinRI, I am very interested in your treatment with Frankincense oil, as I have been using Essential Oils since I first heard of my abnormal mammogram four months ago. I have used a variety of oils; don't know if they are having any effect but I won't stop using them. Briefly, my story is that a needle biopsy the third week in May indicated that my microcalcs were B9. I saw the surgeon for maybe ten minutes and he just told me he was doing an excisional biopsy. It was done in mid July showed a High Grade Comedo Type DCIS and Invasive Ductal Carcinoma, but it took four weeks for me to find out. I have been classified as Her2/neu negative, and I do not know what my hormone receptors are, meaning that after seven weeks those results are still pending. Now I am having a SNL biopsy in mid September and, if they show cancer, then it will be a AL biopsy. I don't know why the two can't be done at the same time. I got these results the day I saw the surgeon for the second time for only ten minutes; it seems I am supposed to do what I'm told, and I wasn't given any time to say anything. My biggest concern right now is if anyone can tell me how long I might have to wait for radiation after the SNL; I have read several posts that indicate it takes longer to heal from the SNL biopsy than from the lumpectomy. I hope someone can give me some ideas on this one, and thank you for your help.

Bcky

Hi Juniper Cat. My poetry is in several books.The last one was Cats Meow. The previous one was Dawnland Voices.