Cancer is just a symptom of disease

Leia

juneping, I totally agree. Strengthening my immune system is my primary focus. Everything that I do focuses on that.

We are all being constantly bombarded with carcinogens. The GMO foods, the fluoride in the water, etc, etc, etc. What we have control over is our own bodies.

The government/main stream guidelines seem to focus on the opposite of that. It is never common sense, it is always a "study." Although, even that. I remember when I was being offered radiation in 2006. For my 2cm cancer cut out with huge margins.

They don't do "studies" any more about radiation being the automatic sequel to a lumpectomy, after early stage breast cancer; it is a given. In 2006 I did find an Austrian study. And the headline, radiation offered a 50% reduction in the recurrence of cancer! But if you looked at the details of the study it was that 4% of the women who did not get radiation got a recurrent cancer; 2% who did get radiation did not.

No mention of all of the side effects of the radiation women.

In absolute terms, radiation offers nothing. But that is what mainstream people believe.

They do think we are the stupid sheeps; but in reality, they are.

I choose to think for myself. And that is why we do stand, alone.

Leia

juneping, I totally agree. Strengthening my immune system is my primary focus. Everything that I do focuses on that.

We are all being constantly bombarded with carcinogens. The GMO foods, the fluoride in the water, etc, etc, etc. What we have control over is our own bodies.

The government/main stream guidelines seem to focus on the opposite of that. It is never common sense, it is always a "study." Although, even that. I remember when I was being offered radiation in 2006. For my 2cm cancer cut out with huge margins.

They don't do "studies" any more about radiation being the automatic sequel to a lumpectomy, after early stage breast cancer; it is a given. In 2006 I did find an Austrian study. And the headline, radiation offered a 50% reduction in the recurrence of cancer! But if you looked at the details of the study it was that 4% of the women who did not get radiation got a recurrent cancer; 2% who did get radiation did not.

No mention of all of the side effects of the radiation women.

In absolute terms, radiation offers nothing. But that is what mainstream people believe.

They do think we are the stupid sheeps; but in reality, they are.

I choose to think for myself. And that is why we do stand, alone.

Leia

Lightandwind,

I am in total agreement. Chemotherapy will never be on my docket.

Chemo made no sense to me 9 years ago when I had cancer; it makes even less sense in my years of education.

People can live for many years with cancer. Or they die. By choosing chemo, many may live a few months longer. But at what cost.

A colleague at my work chose chemo for a stage 4 cancer; it did nothing. She finally just died, wasted, in hospice. If she had not had chemo she might have had a few more meaningful months, with her family.

Can we just state this one truth? Chemotherapy does not cure cancer. Nor does radiation.

Again, cancer is the symptom.

And the cure is giving our bodies what they need to fight the cancer.

Starting with Vitamin D3. The list after that is endless.

Deblc

Ladies, this sounds like the same old arguments we've had on the alt forums...and just recently on a thread I posted myself. Fact is, for the most part, Alternative supporters don't want a discussion (meaning pros and cons) on anything they post. Then it turns into personal attacks. I didn't read all of this thread but I fully support NineTwelve's proposal that there be a place where those of us interested in alternative can have robust discussions, just as we do on the chemo threads, without offending the persons who do not want to to hear anything that might challenge their opinion.

Please Mods, can you set up an alt forum like that for the rest of us, who are not afraid of RESPECTFUL discussion, even if we disagree? A place where everyone is free to join the discussion, no matter their opinion.

leggo

It's not about that Deblc. It's about the ignorant comments made on other threads about how stupid we are and the jokes made at our expense on other threads. I'm going to assume you haven't surfed other threads and seen these comments and are unaware, or you have and you think it's ok. If it's the latter, I say yeah, get your own thread. Then at least we can ignore the entire thread of really immature, sickening comments and wouldn't have to be kicked in the gut by accident. My all time favourite "let the sheep think what they want. It's time to thin the herd". Ya, I reported that one. My second favorite, to a dying woman "Oh brother, just give yourself a coffee enema". Reported that too. Lovely people. I'd be happy to point them out, only problem is those posts were edited by the mods to remove the dumb-ass remarks. Too bad someone had to read them first.

Deblc

Leggo, no I have never seen any threads saying how stupid alt people are, or jokes being made at their expense. My personal experience was that I posted an article that, in part, questioned the validity of alt treatments because there is no oversight by any governing body, which I thought was a valid point for alt virgins like myself who want to research the efficacy of alt treatments..... and I was asked why in God's name I had the nerve to post that in the alt forum. I was very confused as it was an article on alt treatments, and where else would I post it? Further discussion on that thread illustrated to me that people who support alt do not support critical thinking, as it raises questions. And by "critical" I don't mean condemnatory, I mean analytical. And sorry, but I need to ask questions when I am trying to make a decision on medical treatment.

I find it a little insulting of you to say that if I am OK with comments that alt people are stupid, then yes go get my own thread. I thought I made it pretty clear in my post why I want a separate thread, and you actually reinforced my point. I don't think I in any way gave the impression I wanted a thread where I could go to say how stupid alt people are, and make fun of them with immature sickening comments.This is exactly the kind of thing I want to avoid, by asking the mods to allow people who are interested in a full discussion of alt treatments to have a place where they can go to do so, without being accused of kicking people in the gut.

Pretty please, Mods?

Deblc

Leggo,

I just saw your edit and I don't know anyone who would support those kinds of comments, and I've certainly never seen anything like that. I can understand your anger at that kind of behavior...but again, I've found that just questioning alt treatments raises everyone's hackles on the alt forum. So I think it is a really good idea that we have a thread where we can question various aspects of all kinds of alt treatments without offending anybody.

Meow13

I too have B12 deficiency I have been taking the pills but I also drink tons of water. I will look into the time release tablets. I always want to hear about alternative treatment. Since we are all so different having standard conventional treatment seems inadequate to me even harmful.

leggo

I know plenty who support those comments. That's why hackles are raised and will likely stay that way forever. Some of us have been reading that shit for years. One can forgive them, I suppose, but will never ever forget. Good to know though, that you personally don't support it.

Momine

Labelle, that is very interesting about pernicious anemia being auto-immune. I did not know that. Thing is, just because low D and BC correlate does not mean that high D will prevent or treat BC. Furthermore, it in no way means that taking massive supplements to achieve D levels in the upper reaches of normal (or above) is somehow "better" than having simply normal levels.

That is also very interesting about the folic acid. I do think that experienced and observant medical people, of whatever ilk, often go on empirical evidence accumulated through long experience, at least in part, and that is one reason they are good at their jobs. For example, my PT, who only treats BC patients, was the first person to tell me to stay on an AI beyond 5 years. I asked her why, and she said she had too many patients who relapsed in the year after going off it. 6 months later a study came out, which backed her empirical observation. I once learned from an Indian friend that in India, artichokes are considered medicinal and something to give pregnant women. Artichokes are unusually high in folic acid.

Momine

Leia, there is a wide gulf of difference between giving chemo for an early stage (1-3) breast cancer vs. giving palliative chemo at stage 4.

I think we are all aware that chemo is not a cure and that the chances of putting a stage 4 cancer into long-term remission are extremely slim (although it does happen, my aunt being one example). That is a large part of the reason many of us read this forum, hoping for something better down the pike. However, when you are NOT stage 4 already, chemo doesn't just buy you a "few months" (and even many stage 4 patients live for years and years with the help of treatments). That is simply inaccurate.

DiveCat

^^^ Yes, chemo for Stage IV is a very different thing. It's not given as a cure as there is no cure for metastatic cancer (though in some kinds of cancer it can seem to lead to such a curative effect, some testicular cancers for example where there is long term or permanent remission). It is for purpose of stalling progression, maybe buying some time with NED...it is palliative, not curative. I think it is therefore unfair to hold chemo at Stage IV to a curative standard and say well, my Stage IV friend had chemo and died anyway. It is not chemo at the end that leaves Stage IV cancer patients in hospice and wasted away...it is the metastatic cancer that invades organs as eventually there are no further treatment options left.

Patients with Stage IV are monitored to see if the chemo (or radiations, or hormonals) are having an effect, and if you spend time or know someone with Stage IV, or see the Stage IV boards, you will see that they are monitored regularly to see if the treatments actually show a visible effect - meaning slowing, regression, or disappearance of tumours. If there is no change, or the cancer develops a tolerance for the chemo and there is progression, they try something else until there is nothing else. Chemo put my grandmother with Stage IV into remission/NED 3-4 times, giving us an extra few years. I am now hoping oral chemo halts the progression my mother with Stage IV is having and buys her time.

In early stages, being Stages 1-3, the intent of chemo if it is indicated for the patient, and it is not always indicated, is to reduce risk of recurrence...particularly distant recurrence. Meaning the intent is to hopefully reduce risk of being in the position of being a Stage IV/metastatic patient at all. While if you get chemo before surgery, the tumour can be monitored to see if it responds, more women get chemo after surgery;reduction in risk is based on research studies and stats, whether or not it works for the individual person is not going to be certain until that person either has a metastatic recurrence, or dies of something else with NED. It can, and does, buy more than months...it can buy years or lifetimes of NED

If chemo was not indicated for you, or not chosen even if indicated, awesome. That is your choice. Your body, your choice. Or if not indicated, then not a choice but still, it is wonderful that you did not have to face that decision at all. But that does not make those for whom chemo is indicated, and those that choose it, sheep. Indeed, none of those women or men I know personally who have used chemo are anything less than educated about their treatments, open-minded, and very much people who do research and question what is appropriate for them..none of them are people who do not think for themselves

lightandwind

Umm...excuse me but If anyone spends enough time researching on this site or any other cancer site that has tons of members, it doesn't take long to discover that people with immuno-compromised, stage IV cancer, become gravely ill, and very often die very quickly following chemo, and those that choose alternatives to support their immune system often live a much longer, more quality life.

Chemo kills whatever is left of the immune system, does nothing to support this vital internal process within all of us, that is necessary to live. The immune system is the body's only natural defense to fight the disease. Do some research on basic foods, like lemons, cranberries, carrots and their ability to fight cancer. But chemo...even experts say...makes tumors grow faster.

http://consciouslifenews.com/study-shows-tumors-gr...

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/08/06/chemother...

http://www.cancertruth.net/death-treaments-to-avoi...

http://www.cancertutor.com/deathbydoctoring4/

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/salud/salud_defe...

lightandwind

Leia, I have been reading on the same philosophy and it doesn't seem very open minded to me to discount this theory as it is holding up in terms of logic. Old worn out paradigms which rely on giving the same medications that have proven to expedite death in countless patients, seems completely illogical to me.

Momine

Light, you are absolutely right about one thing – stage 4 patients tend to die, which is why we need an actual cure, rather than a hodge-podge of therapies, be they conventional or alternative.

wrenn

it seems to me that spending much pf your time pointing out to people the errors in their thinking has to be such a drain on the system.. And then to have to deliver these "facts" composed as 'concern' an additional strain for resources that could be used enjoying nature and visiting family and friends or volunteering. Looking back at posts i shake my head at the energy levels expended in being seen as being right or 'better than' makes me sleepy......off to nap. Have a good day all.

lightandwind

wrenn I can't understand why anyone would want to hang around critiquing every comment from alternative members on the alternative forum either. I wonder if they ever asked themselves that question? I imagine the answers---it's fun to get under other people skin? It's a game and I want to make sure those alternative gals don't win and have their support forum back and support one another that would be just awlful? it's better than anything else I have to do? I've elected myself the most intelligent and my belief system is superior, so I must make sure everyone knows that and listens to me repeat the same things over, and over, and over again

?? Really don't understand it.

wrenn

I think it is either sadistic tendencies (hopefully not the case here) or an inability to self reflect. I think many people who need to pump themselves up at the expense of others are not aware they are doing it. But to continue doing it (and insisting you aren't doing it) after it is pointed out to you is puzzling...and exasperating for those being put down.

I have never come across a post in the chemo threads suggesting the women who opted for chemo are making a big mistake. Some people are so sure in their rightness that they cannot be open to different viewpoints. You see a lot of that in tea partiers. That kind of thinking actually fascinates me now that we have a very conservative close minded prime minister.

juneping

just last week, i noticed my ankles swelled up badly. called up my MO and googled a lot....MO said it could be tamoxifen. told me to stop the pills for 2 weeks. i stopped the pill for three days now and my ankles got a lot better.

i can't afford to lift my feet up anywhere i go and with my job i need to visit construction site and on my feet to walk the site. so i am grateful for this forum that I know DIM I3C and flaxseeds can help. what am i supposed to do while waiting for some solid scientific evidence that may never come in my life time????

Momine

Wrenn, I assume that was not addressed to me personally. I rarely post here, and I do run a business as well as volunteer FT.

juneping

Off topic,if I am not hallucinating....I would say you are quite a regular here.

Momine

Juneping, I read regularly, but skip most threads in terms of posting.

Moderators

Hi Deblc, and all,

We thought we'd jump in here to remind everyone on the thread that this thread is in the Alt forum -- which is maintained as a safe and judgement-free zone, open for RESPECTFUL discussion about Alternative Treatments, pros/cons, what worked for one/didn't work for another, etc. This is not a place to spout views about who is right or wrong -- that is all subjective. If you can have a civil discussion about alternative theories -- without the motivation of trying to sway any members one way or another -- then by all means, discuss away.

We recommend that any members who are reading/posting on any thread in the Alt forum that are only posting in order to oppose the treatments read and post elsewhere. The block function (for threads AND members) is a fantastic tool for such situations, and we strongly suggest using it!

We thank you for your cooperation in this matter and hope to keep all discussions safe and welcoming.

Sincerely,

--The Mods

NineTwelve

I was horrified to read leggo's post on people making rude, hurtful comments about Alt members here. I may have doubts about some things, coffee enemas included, but I would never attack any person for their beliefs regarding them. I hope the ones who do that are few and far between.

I have started a new topic in the Complementary Therapies forum to get a dialog going. No, it's not that I want us to troll each other or argue about who's right or wrong. I only wanted a place to talk about the mixed hopes and fears I have about my disease and how to treat it.

leggo

Hi June. I got a bit concerned when I read your post about your ankles. My ankles are in a continuous state of swollen because of heart damage caused by chemo/herceptin and kidney issues. Just want to make sure you''re confident it's not caused by either of those. I highly recommend some compression socks to keep the swelling down. Like you, when I was still working on my feet all day with no possibility of putting my feet up, those socks helped. I found the total socks constricted my feet too much in heels and they kind of hurt but you can get some that leave the front part of your foot open. Little expensive though. Glad you found some relief while off the tamox.

Deblc

Hi Mods, I am glad you clarified to saythat we CAN question things in the Alt forum, as I got the strong impression that this was not allowed.

Lily55

I regret taking radiotherapy as it has left me with so many problems and I worry about it creating cancer now, but at the time I was very heavily pressured in to it as I refused chemo, despite it being pushed on me a lot, so I got half right..............I do believe its our bodily environments that make the difference between us and those who do not get cancer.......but the reasons that environment is different are many fold....................one thing I will say is that we call non conventional treatment "alternative" when in fact a lot of it is the original treatment fom centuries gone by, based on the philosophy of supporting and (working with your body not taking it over or nuking it, and what is now called conventional treatment is the real alternative treatment, if you see what I mean?

Momine

Lily, I do see what you mean, and I often think that the perceived division between conventional and alternative is somewhat artificial anyway.

sandcastle

lily....I, DO see what you mean....and agree....Liz

lightandwind

Lily, ditto. Thanks!