Ketogenic Diet anyone?

zogo

Hi Vivian, of course I remember you :-) I'm so sorry to hear about your set back.

Someone just shared a video on the keto facebook page I help admin (Optimal Ketogenic Living) this morning. Dr Seyfried is cutting edge on cancer and keto. (We have a cancer thread there if you have a fb acct, we'd love to have you)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEE-oU8_NSU

I don't think you should fast. You need the strength. I only use ketostix when I am first starting out. And beyond that, once you are keto adapted, there isn't much use for them. If you've done it before, you know the first few days can be kind of miserable.

As for recipes, I've got tons, but not feeling good and not wanting to mess with cooking, just stick with meat, veggies and maybe protein shakes to get your protein in. I follow the advice of Drs Volek and Phinney (The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living). At 5'6" I shoot for at least 100g Protein, up to 75g Fat and less than 25g Carbs. That is for trying to lose weight. If you don't need to do that, you can up your fat grams significantly and still remain in ketosis. It's all about the carbs. Plenty of protein to support lean body mass.

I've got to run for an appt, but I will keep in touch.

(((hugs)))

VivianS

Thanks zogo! I will definitely look into the fb site. I'm familiar with Dr Seyfried's work. I did lots of "homework" but, still know there is always more to learn! I could loose about 10 lbs, but that is not really my focus (5'5", 150 lbs. of fat, skin,bone, and very little muscle). Will look into Drs Volek and Phinney. It makes me feel good knowing I have your support out there!

zogo

If you come join us on Facebook at OKL, my real name is Jane Gasiorowski. I'll look for you and tag you on the cancer thread.

Here is a recipe my hubby likes me to make. It's fairly simple, they keep well in the fridge for weeks and taste like a mini cheesecake. I use 11 of the silicone individual cupcake cups and just set them on a cookie sheet. This is double the original recipe, so you could cut it in half if you want (but why cook twice?)

Cheesecake Muffins

Preheat oven to 350*

2 x 8 oz Cream Cheese room temp

1/4 C. Sour Cream

1/4 C. Sugar Free syrup (like for coffee, Torani or DaVinci are common brands) Any flavor ~ I like Caramel in this recipe best.

2 Eggs

A splash of lemon juice and/or vanilla is good in it.

Mix cream cheese until smooth.

Add remaining ingredients and mix one at a time until smooth.

Pour in cupcakes (makes about 11)

Bake @ 350* for about 18 minutes. They will rise and then fall. Open oven door and let cool for 1/2 hour. Continue to cool on counter. Store in refrigerator in container.

(Try to wait until they are chilled to try these, they are much better cold and worth the wait!)

Can be served with berries and/or whipped cream to make it "fancy"

VivianS

Thanks for the recipe! Will definitely try it. I plan to join your fb group, too. I rewatched Dr Seyfried's video and I'm gearing up, but will need to wait until this Weds to start because I'm having company from (cold!) Michigan for a short visit. But, I have already cut the sugars and carb to some extent in preparation.

TwoHobbies

Vivian, I do remember you and I'm sorry to hear your news. Hugs to you during this stressful time. I would agree with Zogo's advice to concentrate on your proteins and vegetables and I don't think you need to buy special foods necessarily, and don't beat yourself up. I have read to start with about 20 grams of carb and then you may be able to go up to 50 or 70. I've generally tried to keep my carbs to 80 or so most days, but I don't know if I'm actually in ketosis or not.

I have found a few inspiring videos on the Ancestral Health Symposium vimeo channel. You can just google that. They also may be on youtube. Dr. Seyfried is on there and Rainer Klement is another one researching ketogenic diets and cancer treatment.

I hope you have a good visit with your Michigan company. I know they will appreciate having some Florida hospitality at this time of year.

Megc

Hello all, didn't know this subject existed on BC.org. Have been on Keto since the first of the year. Just seems to make sense. Lost about 12 lbs in a month. Kept the carb around 25 and the proteins under 65.

Vivian, you've done this before so I probably don't have much to add to your knowledge base. Pinterest has a has many, many boards that people have already done the recipe research on. Go on Pinterest and ask for a search on Keto diet, LCHF diet, low carb diet. You will find more stuff than you'll know what to deal with. Pick out the easy ideas.

Walmart has keto sticks for about $5. I think they must keep them behind the counter so you may need to ask.

Good luck. Feel better.

Mary

zogo

Vivian, thinking of you...how are you doing?

Mary, that seems like a very low protein amount (65g?). I'm 5'6" and shoot for 100g based on the work of Drs Volek and Phinney.

If you lose weight and don't eat enough protein (usually at least 90g), you risk losing lean body mass instead of fat. You need the protein to keep your muscles.

VivianS

Hey there! I am doing fine. I had some sort of stomach flu or food poisoning or something and after 3-4 days of vomiting/diarrhea (first night was just awful but did slowly improve), I pulled a muscle in my neck from retching and had an awful time with upper spine back spasms. All these probs could happen to anyone, but of course since I have stage 4 cancer, I imagined the worst! I went to the ER and wasted lots of time and money. I'm back to my old self today and moving forward!

Back to the keto diet. I was using blood keto sticks the last time, but am now going to go for the urine sticks I am not going to be as fanatical either. I have a full bone scan tomorrow and am going to be talking to my onc about what new poison (er...I mean chemo) to put in my body. Almost want to say "no" -but not strong enough to jump all the way off the Western Medicine wagon...

3-16-2011

hi all

my NP recomended a ketogenic diet and I have been on it one week. I have been keeping carbs between 12 to 20 a day. I would love to have names of books or web sites people have used and how low people are going with carbs. thanks for any help.

zogo

Hi 3-16, Welcome! If you have been doing this for a week, then you have gotten through the hardest part!!! I find that when ketosis kicks in (I use ketostix to confirm and I cut them in half to make them last twice as long) that I get a burst of energy and my hunger is gone. I've been low carb and usually keto for almost 4 years.

Books I own and recommend are:

"The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" by Drs Volek and Phinney.

"Grain Brain" by Dr David Perlmutter

"Wheat Belly" by Dr William Davis.

Websites:

Facebook page Optimal Ketogenic Living (by far the best science-based info out there)

All Day I Dream About Food ~ Recipes

I Breathe I'm Hungry ~ Recipes

As for how low I go on carbs, here are the macros I shoot for daily

Protein > 100 grams

Fat ~ 75 grams (this would be higher if I weren't trying to lose weight) Healthy fats like coconut oil, butter, olive oil ONLY. No crappy oils.

Carbs < 25

zogo

Vivian, how are you feeling? Are you on the mend? Did you start a new poison? Hope things are going better for you these days!

3-16-2011

thanks zogo exactly the info I was looking for.

zogo

I just listened to this interview of Dr Thomas Seyfried. He definitely supports a ketogenic diet for cancer.

http://thequantifiedbody.net/cancer-as-a-mitochondrial-disease-dr-thomas-seyfried/

Megc

zogo,

I got the book Fighting Cancer With the Ketogenic Diet. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't buy it again. Most everything in there is available for free. I have referred back to it a few times. For what it's worth, they kept the proteins at a level that is supposed to give your daily needs but not above, so activity level factors in, the concept being that excess protein converts to glycogens which can behave like glucose. I may not have the wordings exactly on the mark but it's close. The diet dropped the pounds, we will see if it helped the treatment. I think not. I have felt much better on the diet. Far fewer aches and pains, fewer aches than before these special drugs we take. Taking a break for awhile.

I do concur on your list of web sites. They are amoung the best.

Mary

zogo

Meg, I don't have the book you mentioned, so I'm not sure what it recommends. Thanks for the advice to not buy it.

You are right that protein is very important and should not be limited. You would have to eat a huge amount for it to be bad for you. And erring on the side of too little risks losing muscle. It is important to maintain lean body mass.

I've spent more time than I should admit (at least to my husband) researching this topic (and I keep learning) for free online. I am convinced it is the way I will eat for life. June 20th will be 4 years.

I'm actually an admin at OKL and thoroughly trust Raymund Edward's advice. The man is brilliant and is very good at sifting through scientific data. The site only references peer reviewed studies. I feel bad that it is currently limited to a facebook page. It is growing by leaps and bounds though (over 15,000 members since July) and I'm quite confident it will be an online site at some time in the future.

Jane

3-16-2011

hi all

I am now into week two. My ketosticks say i have reached moderate ketosis. I have not had that burst of energy yet. I still eat dairy products but am trying to reduce. I would love to see what peoples go to meals and snacks are. My seem to be olives and spinach salad and nitrate free bacon.

zogo

Go to meals?

Eggs cooked in butter and/or coconut oil with canadian bacon for breakfast. Plus coffee with HWC (heavy whipping cream).

Sugar free greek yogurt with protein powder.

Tuna salad with some melted cheese on it.

Leftovers from last night, usually meat and veggies.

Chicken caesar salad.

Cheeseburger no bun with cole slaw made with oil & vinegar.

Crack slaw.

Dark Chocolate or Lily's Milk Chocolate.

Recentlydiagnosed

Dx 22/8/2018, IDC, 3cm, Luminal A, Grade 3, 0/3 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-

Surgery 7/9/2018 Radical Masectomy: Left; Lymph node removal: Left

I am 49 years old, and was recently diagnosed with Invasive Ductal Carcinoma which I knew I had for over 2 years. I was in denial.

I felt the lump. I could see the lump. I only sought help when it became painful. My sister had been diagnosed 7 years earlier at the age of 42. I still did nothing. I did not even have a mammogram.

The look of shock on the faces of the medical staff when I confessed how long I know about it and did nothing confirmed how stupid I felt. Needless to say, i did not require ultrasound for the biopsy as the lump was so visible. It had grown attached to my chest wall, which is why i required a radical masectomy to remove (fillet) the muscle.

I had surgery on Friday 7/09/2018, and returned to work on Tuesday 11/09/2018 the following week.

The margins were clear, and unbelievably, all nodes were negative, and there was no sign lymph or blood vessel invasion.

I do not need radiation (due to the clear margins of 2.8mm) and no chemo as there is no sign that it spread beyond the breast.

I can honestly say that the fact that I have been on a ketogenic diet for the past 10 years is what prevented it from spreading.

The doctors were amazed it had not spread considering the size, stage and the fact it had been around for over 2 years.

My diet saved my life.

zogo

Recentlydiagnosed, what a story!

Kind of ironic that you can stick to keto for 10 years and avoid a mammogram at the same time.

And your turn-around time after surgery is quite impressive. I'm sure being keto helped with recovery, as well.

So happy to hear your margins were clear!

If you have any keto tips, tricks or recipes I'd love to hear.

bluepearl

As to the ketogenic diet...keep away from red meats as much as possible.....beef and pork.....and any processed meats including bacon and ham/sausages. It is not a high protein diet so do not overload with protein...keep it palm sized. Try to replace all fats with good fats like olive and avocado. Coconut oil is still on the "no" side for heart disease. Saturated fats should be kept limited to be on the safe side. Increase fibre in any way you can. Take a multi B vitamin pill since grains are being eliminated. Eat LOTS of vegetables. The keto diet is sort of along the same lines as the low glycemic diet and both should be utilized. One can safely eat cold potatoes/rice/pasta (limited quantities) as their molecular structure is altered when cooked and cooled, becoming more like a fibre when cold and thus, not affecting blood sugar. Do not reheat. If you do, let it go cold again and it even becomes better. Try to become vegetarian a couple of times a week as well....and yes, there is a vegetarian keto diet. If not wanting to lose weight, you can have 50-100 g of carbs per day and still be healthy. High fibre bread with 12g of carbs, you can have one or two a day. I have found a "breakfast bar" with nuts/chocolate high protein that has 12 g. of carbs and is my go-to if I have an "urge". Keep away from fruit juices. Strive towards berries. I make ketogenic ice cream too. Make cheesecakes with coconut crust. Walk or do some exercise 30 minutes a day. When one is well, fasting 1 or 2 days a week (no more than 500 calories per day) actually is extremely beneficial whether you are on keto or not. Lots of bone broth soup. I also make a keto lemonade that helps with keto flu. Just eliminating starches & sugars works well too (unless you are diabetic). I prefer not to eliminate any food group but to alter them......meat isn't good to chaw down on all the time either.....prefer nuts for snacks.....sunflower butter on a piece of weight watcher's 100% whole wheat toast is amazing....very high in fibre, very low in carbs...I think that bread has 9 g of carbs and the sunflower butter has 1. You can also make wonderful things with flaxseed and chia seeds but I often just use chia seeds because of controvery over flaxseeds........saute some mixed nuts, cool, add to chia seeds and add almond milk, cook in microwave, add cinnamon and you got a great hot cereal! I y mix in the fridge. Hope this all helps.

santabarbarian

I am currently half way through neo adjuvant chemo. I have TNBC and figured I have to throw the book at it and do everything on my end that I can do. Upon diagnosis I eliminated all non nutritive foods. I was pointed to Keto by an oncologist friend. Yet I was warned off animal fats and high fat generally by an integrative medicine cancer specialist -- outcomes best for women who eat 20% fat or less. Not unlimited fat as Atkins dieters often do (and I did in the past).

My keto diet is not draconian (about 40 carbs/day) - I eat mostly vegetables, a small amount of low carb fruit, small amounts of meat chicken and fish, scant eggs, scant dairy, with lots of nuts, and other healthy oils, avocado etc.

I do one fruit smoothie per day -- I and have a good low carb high-nutrition recipe. I use about 1/3 C berries or other low carb fruit (varys). About 1/4-1/3 C "Califia" unsweetened nut milk Kefir, 3-4T "Cocoyo" coconut-based non dairy yoghurt for fat & live cultures, plus whey protein isolate powder, reishi mushroom powder, and super greens green powder w probiotics. Ice if desired. Mint if desired. Flax seeds if desired. The whole thing is <20 carbs and on days when you can't eat much you get a lot of nutrition in this. Extra can be frozen for popsicles.

I exercise regularly, and remain in ketosis on this plan. I also do fasting mimicking which 800 cals a day for 5 days leading into my chemo and day 5 is chemo day. (Valter Longo of USC developed it/ can google him). So if my rebuild edges me out of ketosis I go right back in before chemo.

I have the occasional diluted kombucha for a treat. I make "granola bars" from buckwheat, quinoa, sesame seeds, flax seeds, diced up nuts. Held together with 1 pack instant oatmeal (prepared) and one half mashed banana. Can add some diced dried cranberry, and flaked unsweetened coconut too. Bake in square pan for about 20 mins at 300. All good carbs.

I was recommended to do buckwheat, quinoa, and other complete protein carb foods, & lentils, sweet potato, etc in rebuild (by the integrative doc). I am doing small amounts of these foods the week following chemo for better digestion. Pre-biotics, too, in brown rice and green bananas, are important to feeding healthy gut flora, so I put a half green some banana in smoothie here and there during chemo week.

Some of the comments on other threads, where people are living on 7up and ice cream, really depress me. It seems so backwards to the best approach.