Alcohol & Breast Cancer Recurrence Association Qualified...

SelenaWolf

... Just read a snippet from Dr. John Link's book, The Breast Cancer Survival

LittleMelons

SelenaWolf - Darn.  I was disappointed when I saw that your post was deleted.  Thought it might be good news that meant I could increase my wine intake. lol

mari65

I wanted to see it too.. 

SelenaWolf

Sorry... something went wrong during the post and it came out all cock-eyed...  and I can't seem to paste the information in a new topic ???

Anyway... I was skimming through Dr. John Link's book, The Breast Cancer Survival Manual and there was a few paragraphs at the end of the book about alcohol consumption.

[I'm going to try to get this straight.]  Dr. Link stated that the current thinking with "links" moderate alcohol consumption (i.e., 5 oz./day) with increased risk of breast cancer recurrence needs to be qualified.  Apparently, the association was uncovered via retrospective study: a type of study that uses historical data to group subjects into two groups in order to examine risk- or preventative factors of a pre-determined outcome.  And, he said, that this type of study - while it can be valuable - does have weaknesses.  The major one is that it is not always possible to avoid bias.

According to Dr. Link, the "association" found between alcohol and breast cancer recurrence in these studies needs to be qualified: the actual link between moderate alcohol consumption and increased breast cancer risk actually occurred with subjects who were obese (with a Body Mass Index over 25) and post-menopausal.  For those subjects who were not obese (with a Body Mass Index under 25) and post-menopausal, there was no association.  So the real culprit, he claims, is obesity not alcohol.

What do you think?

pupmom

Selena, you said post-menopausal for both groups of subjects, if I read correctly. Did you mean pre-menopausal for one of the groups?

SelenaWolf

I think it was post-menopausal.  Both groups were post-menopausal, but one group was obese and the other group wasn't.  I think.  Which means that, if both groups were drinking moderate amounts of alcohol and only the obese group had recurrences, then the obesity is the "link".  Not the alcohol.

I didn't buy the book so I can't reference it.  Does anyone have it to clear this detail up?

pupmom

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Beesie

I take all the research on alcohol and breast cancer with a grain of salt (well, actually, I take it was a glass of wine!). The studies are all either retrospective, or they are self-reporting - and we know that everyone is always honest about the amount of alcohol they consume! Yet even at that, the links that have been found between alcohol consumption and breast cancer risk have always been weak. In other words, in all the research that's been reported, at the worst, alcohol consumption is weakly linked to breast cancer risk or breast cancer recurrence. 

I am female. I have extremely dense breasts. I have a family history of breast cancer. I now have a personal history of breast cancer. I have never had children. I have so many high or moderate risk factors that I'm just not going to worry about something that might be (or might not be) a weak risk factor. And then there's the question as to whether stress contributes to the development of breast cancer. Maybe, maybe not. But I know that when I have a glass (or two) of wine with dinner, I relax and all the stress of the day floats away. So for me, alcohol cancels out stress. That has to be good, right?

Here's the alcohol and breast cancer study that I like:  www.telegraph.co.uk/health/hea...  "They looked at 13,525 women who had been diagnosed and treated for breast cancer, who they followed for up to 15 years. Those who drank seven units a week cut the chance of dying from breast cancer in a decade from 20 to 18 per cent, and those who drank 14 units weekly reduced the chance to 16 per cent."  Of course this study is no more reliable than any of the others but it's the one that I choose to believe. 

SelenaWolf

HaHA!!!!  I think I like that one better too!

fd1

What you wrote about stress, Beesie, is exactly my thought (or justification lol).  But I really believe that the risk comes from the sugar levels in alcohol.  Many studies show that insulin levels may have an impact on recurrence, especially for those who are obese.  The fact that the above study found the negative impact in obese, postmenopausal women, who would be more likely to have blood sugar issues, is very interesting.  So for now, I minimize other dietary sources of sugars/carbs and enjoy un bon verre! 

pupmom

Me too!  

I want to add that my mom died at 86 of heart disease. She never had cancer of any kind. She faithfully had her glass, or two lol, of red wine every night. Who knows, maybe it gave her a few extra years.

SelenaWolf

Many of those studies relating blood sugar levels to increased risk are "retrospective", as well.  They are based on historical records and are observational only.  That's why the world-wide Metformin trial is being done; to see if it can, actually, be proven that blood sugar levels do have an impact on increased risk.  That's why so many oncologists/primary doctors are not willing to prescribe Metformin off-label yet.  They are waiting for the outcomes to be published.

fd1

True!  It's just my hunch - infllammation, obesity, sugar levels, stress, and diet are all related and seem to have some impact on cancer survival.  We just haven't figured it all out yet!

SelenaWolf

It's my hunch, as well; hence my participation in the Metformin trial

Anonymous

I find this discussion interesting; it merits mentioning that ILC seems to be much more driven by alcohol than other forms of breast cancer.  Again--different cancers respond to different things.

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/102/18/1422.abstract

This abstract doesn't mention recurrence,but it seems likely that if women who drink more are more likely to get ILC, then women who have had it shouldn't drink.

Claire

fredntan

thanks Claire!

I was about to have a drink. but ILC gets mentioned. I had mix with ILC.

moderate drinking was my only real offense. sure I ate non organic, and meat, and not as many veggies as now. I didn't exercize like I do now. didn't at all. was only like 20 lbs overweight.

OMG this is so confusing. Its time for light beer, only had 1 this week!

Tammy_M43

Wow, I am very glad to have found this discussion forum from some very informed women.



I had ILC and was the typical "big drinking" woman. My job is very demanding and the glass of wine (or two or three) was my way to relax in the evening. It was my only vice as I've been a healthy weight for 6 years, eat well, don't smoke and I was exercising hard.



My tumour was ER+/ PR+ and I've read that alcohol causes estrogen levels to rise, in fact they think they know the mechanism. I thought about it hard and for me I decided to cut down but not stop completely as I wanted to enjoy an occasional drink with hubby or friends.



Since just before my operation, I am now down to a glass of wine per week. I am missing the after work relaxation and the social aspect but it has been easier than I thought. As I said to hubby, it is amazing how a scare can make you change behaviour!

Rdrunner

I dont think everyone fits into the risk or categories. I am young (premen), never been over weight, used to be competive endurance athlete  and continued training after competive over. Never been over weight, eat extremely healthy, never smoked, maybe 2/3 drinks a year.. breast fed both my kids, never had hormone treatment/medication of any kind and yet I had a large lobular and small idc  (:

SelenaWolf

Tammy M43... that's the decision I made, as well.  I wasn't a big drinker (white wine only), but I was a regular drinker.  Weekends with friends and good food, topped off with a lovely glass of chilled Gerwurtztraminer or two was my pattern.  I spoke at length about this to-alcohol-or-not-to-alcohol with my oncologist and she said that the studies to date on the issue were nowhere near conclusive and the odd glass of wine would not put me in harm's way.

She was the one who taught me how to "read" the studies; to watch for certain language such as "link", "association", "possible impact" and "potential long-term effects".  These phrases, usually, indicate that the study was retrospective and, thus, potentially biased in favour of the pattern the study analysts were looking for in the first place.  In addition, she said that retrospective studies are only looking for trends and patterns in the historical data while prospective studies are studying actual cause-and-effect.  Her insight helped me a great deal when it came to picking through the tons of conflicting data and thinking critically about what I was, actually, reading and how it pertained to me.

taffy_needhelp1234

Tammy, you sounded just like me.  I drank 2-3 glassess per day to relax from all that work stress and I have breast cancer ER+/PR+, the question is that did you go thru bone scan before the surgery? my results came back suscipious for 10th rib mets.  I did do pet scan today and Im so nervous and scared and I cant do anything. I wanted to ask you cuz you sound lot like my situation.