Cupping?

cookiegal

The latest BCO blog suggests cupping improves lymphatic flow. Your thoughts?

kira66715

Cookie, this is what she wrote:

Another technique that I find to be very helpful in the clinic is "cupping." This involves the placement of glass or silicone cups on the body for the purpose of pain relief, lymphatic drainage, and detoxification. I commonly use this painless technique in conjunction with acupuncture after medical treatment to detoxify from medications and release tight tissue and muscle. 

 Thank goodness I have wikepedia again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_cupping

The air inside the cup is heated and the rim is then applied to the skin, forming an airtight seal. As the air inside the cup cools, it contracts, forming a partial vacuum and enabling the cup to suck the skin, pulling in soft tissue, and drawing blood to that area. Alternately, the suction is created by a hand-pump and blood is allowed to collect. According to the American Cancer Society, "[a]vailable scientific evidence does not support cupping as a cure for cancer or any other disease". It can leave temporary bruised painful marks on the skin and there is also a small risk of burns.[2] 

It sounds just horrible for LE. I'm so tired of correcting/informing people, but should we tell the moderators?

Kira

SoCalLisa

I had it for neuropathy, but it did not help at all

cookiegal

Kira, I kind of think we should raise a pink if not red flag.

I mean would they do it on the b9 side to pull more stuff over there? 

I think at the very least it needs some clarification!

Moderators

cookiegal, we'll ask the editorial team to follow up.

Judith and the Mods

Binney4

Cookie, thanks for bringing this up. There's some truly awesome information on this site about breast cancer, but with regard to LE they seem to drop the ball a lot.

You can post mmessages on the blog itself (I did that earlier this evening), and I hope the author will consider making some important clarifications to her article.

Be well!
Binney

Anonymous

I had a massage therapist perform cupping on my back. This was after my exchange surgery but prior to developing LE. I had back pain and decided to have a massage, not knowing I was developing a case of shingles as the rash wasn't visible yet. Had never heard of cupping, and she said it was a simple process, which it was. Didn't hurt at all, but didn't do anything for my back either. Obviously, this is not what a doctor would recommend for shingles! Thank goodness the cup wasn't placed directly on the area that developed the rash. Anyway, I developed two bruises on my back from where she had placed the cup, and they took weeks to go away. This cannot be a good thing to allow near LE or in that quadrant. All the things we try to avoid, cupping causes. I felt pretty stupid for allowing this procedure once I was diagnosed with shingles. I took a pic of the rash once it appeared and the bruise is there. Will see if I can find it.

Binney4

Good morning!

For those who haven't been following the blog, here's a response from the author to our "pink-flag" post:

thank you so much for your important comment. I do, in fact, only use gentle acupressure on the affected side where lymphedema is a possibility – and if a client is not comfortable with acupressure, I certainly respect that. It’s important to keep the arm and breast in the flow of energy, but to avoid the risk of puncture, bruising, or swelling that could lead to lymphedema. There are many kinds of cupping available, and certain gentle methods performed on the back or opposite quadrant can again be helpful. Thanks to you, I will be making an addition to the piece that covers the importance of avoiding lymphedema risk with acupuncture.

(As someone with LE in my back, I just want to emphasize that cupping on the back is a no-no too, but at least this response comes a lot closer to safe practice.)

Now we just need those changes added to the article so women who don't bother to read the comment section are not misled into The Land of Swell. (Swellville? Swell City? Whatever -- you don't want to go there!) So, hey, thanks for bringing this up, Cookie -- together we can make a difference!

(Along that same line, I see bc.org has adopted StepUp-SpeakOut's slogan, "Together we can make a difference." If we were Komen we'd sue the socks off them Lucky for them we're all on the same team. Go, bc.org!)

Group hug!
Binney

kira66715

We're not going to sue? 

I just did all this Komen research for a lecture...... 

Actually, the mods were right on it, and I really hope they change the article up front, so women don't have to search to get the right information, the safe information, and this woman needs to understand lymphatic QUADRANTS.

Thank you Cookie for your close read of the blog, and the mods are really responsive, I just wish bc.org would get the basic premise of lymphedema risk reduction behaviors.

Kira 

Anonymous

I just added a comment to the blog suggesting the same care be given to a lower quadrant that has compromised nodes. Many women here with BC end up having gynecological procedures and nodes tested and are at risk in lower extremities and torso. Better safe than sorry with this stuff! Together we can make a difference! :-)

OneBadBoob

Oh--we are not going to sue?

Leah_S

Kira, do you know where I can see a diagram of the quadrants? A lot of things would be easier to deal with if I could see it exactly.

Thank you!

Leah

Binney4

Leah, I don't have a diagram handy, but think of it like chicken quarters: wing, breast, back.

Seriously, the dividing lines are the waist and the midline of chest and back (spine). So for cancer treatment in the right breast, the affected quadrant is above the waist to the neck, and from the center of your chest in front, around your right side to your spine in the back. Does that help? But you have to keep in mind that if you've had surgery to both breasts that's two affected quadrants.

Tina, good thought! You're not leaving this poor acupuncturist much wiggle room, are you?!

Kira and Jane, it's way too cold to sue the socks off anybody. Maybe if they're still messing up in August....
Binney

OneBadBoob

http://www.stepup-speakout.org/manual_lymphatic_drainage_massage_lymphedema.htm

sorry I cannot make the link "hot" but I am on my iPad

Binney4

Here, I'll "liven" it up for you, Jane:

http://www.stepup-speakout.org/manual_lymphatic_drainage_massage_lymphedema.htm

Click on the first (left-hand) diagram near the top of the page to enlarge it.
Binney

OneBadBoob

I had acupuncture and cupping after a bad emergency dismount years ago where I injured my neck.



It was great and helped very much--but indeed the cupping caused bruising and I would never do it again on my LE areas.

Leah_S

Binney and Jane, thank you! I thought the quadrant was just upper trunk; I didn't realize it went to the waist.

Well, now I understand why my LE PT taught me to do the MLD to below my waist (and she does  that, too).

Leah

Anonymous

Definitely not trying to be a PIA or limit the practice of acupuncture or cupping. I have had acupuncture myself and think it can be helpful. However, once you are discussing LE and someone is open to correcting info, now is the time to set things straight, especially since we're already discussing quadrants. My comment is still awaiting moderation, so I guess you can't see it yet. Those with leg LE have a tough road, and no one deserves to get it if it can be prevented. I'm preaching to the choir here . .

otter

Cupping?  Hmmm.... The word alone reminds me of bloodletting, pin-firing (for horses), and all those other archaic treatments.  Creepy.  (Sorry.)  Guess I'll skip that one.

otter

Leah_S

Actually, Otter, my first thought was, "Cupping? Someone still does that?

I guess I'm not the only one.

Leah

Binney4

Tina, I was kidding -- I agree with you on the leg risk, and it sure isn't worth taking chances with. I appreciate your commenting about that on the blog, and I certainly hope it's addressed in a rewrite of that blog entry.

Happily enough, there is some research going on regarding the use of acupuncture for LE relief (and hopefully Kira or Jane or Otter will come along and remind me of where that's being done), and I believe they're looking at safety as well as efficacy (there are those who believe that with LE we should avoid skin breaks anywhere on our bodies whenever possible, no matter which quadrant is affected). I haven't seen anything published from that study yet, but that's just as well since we need to know about long-term issues too.

Hugs,
Binney

Anonymous

Binney, I knew you were kidding. :-) I was concerned my blog comment would be taken as extreme. You're actually the person who first told me about this issue, and I was shocked since it was yet another important thing about LE I didn't know. We've all shared about how stress to the body outside the area of LE or something systemic like a cold or flu can cause swelling in the compromised quadrant. That's my stance when it comes to this kind of stuff now. I did acupuncture prior to BC, but I wouldn't now for exactly that reason.

kira66715

I heard of "coining" amongst southeast asian patients, and they are often accused of child abuse for the bruises.

The bottom line, how do we get bc.org to closely read and edit the blog posts they put up?

Kira

kira66715

Binney found an article about how LE is treated in Korea:

In the article:

In oriental medical clinic, the herbal doctor used
acupuncture, electrical stimulation therapy, moxa-
cautery, negative cupping, herbal drugs, a mechanical
pump, and so on. Very often, the patients experienced
complications from this therapy.

I'll see if I can find the abstract in pubmed

Kira

kira66715

And what pops up on my google alert: a long post by a PhD and breast surgeon about his concerns about integrative medicine and oncology:

Barrie Cassileth; Amy Matecki; K. Simon Yeung; Carmencita Mercado-Poe; Marci Coleton; Lisa Bailey; James Lozada; Martha Tracy; Gary Cecchi. Safety of Acupuncture for Upper Extremity Lymphedema in Breast Cancer Patients: Lessons from two major Medical Centers. Define "safety." As a surgeon who sees a fair number of patients with lymphedema due to breast cancer surgery, the thought of sticking needles into the lymphedematous limb causes me to shudder, given how prone limbs with lymphedema are to infection and how--shall we say?--unconcerned about sterile technique most acupuncturists are. (Just ask Mark Crislip if you don't believe me.)

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/francis_collins_and_integrative_oncology.php?utm_source=sbhomepage&utm_medium=link&utm_content=channellink

Moderators

Hang tight, Everyone. We've got the editorial staff still taking a look at your points. 

Thanks for your patience!

Melissa and the Mods 

Anonymous

Thank you, Moderators, for addressing our requests. We want to keep BCO a site that provides access to current and accurate info.



Kira, I should send that link to the head of the breast center at the hospital where I had my surgery. In the last few years they have offered access to CAM, but it has not been funded by the hospital itself. While I have found art therapy helpful, I didn't care too much for the reiki or NIA sessions. Since my mastectomy, I have been more willing to try different things, but (to me) it is pretty clear when it's hokum. I never used in addition to treatment, rather as ways to cope with long-term physical and emotional pain after reconstructive surgery. Either way, it demonstrates that when people are desperate to find measures to help with treatment, pain, etc. and these methods are available, they are often tried. Things like reiki wouldn't hurt anyone, so one might say why not. However, it also takes away the time a patient might use to find a legitimate and effective treatment or method of coping. I am actually a big fan of art therapy and mindful meditation, and even drumming (like music therapy), as they all seem to help reduce stress. However, the positive (magical) thinking and energy stuff leaves me cold.

Moderators

Hi All, 

The Blog has been updated!!

Best,

The Mods

http://community.breastcancer.org/blog/acupuncture-and-cancer-care/ 

otter

Mods et al., thanks for updating the blog entry to add the precautions and disclaimers.

As for cupping, ... <sigh>:  I guess I just don't have my head screwed on right.  I've had 12 years of "conventional" college-level training in health sciences and medicine, including anatomy, physiology, pathology, etc. (all the "ologies").  Perhaps that's the whole problem -- I'm too "conventional" in how I think about things and what I understand about biology and living systems.

I simply do not understand statements like this:  "I commonly use this painless technique [i.e., cupping] in conjunction with acupuncture after medical treatment to detoxify from medications...".  (Emphasis is mine.)

How is applying suction to a particular site on the skin going to "detoxify" the body?  I get that some women think taking massive doses of laxatives will remove toxins.  (I understand that they think it will; I'm not saying it actually will, although intractable diarrhea will result in loss of quite a few things.) 

But, how will cupping, or acupuncture, for that matter, remove any toxins???

otter the skeptic

kira66715

Tina, I've been thinking about your post and how great it is: I think you said it all, and so well. I keep an open mind, but so much CAM is done out of desperation or a need for control, and so much is just hokum, IMO.

This bc.org blog just perpetuates the issue.

I've tried accupuncture several times: from a Chinese physician, two practitioners who were European physicians, a US trained practitioner, at a Harvard med school training course--and the results have never been impressive for me, nor long lasting. I would imagine it's best for pain, but that's not what I tried to treat.

I have done qi gong, and it forced me to meditate, and seemed helpful.

I think the things that you mentioned all stimulate creativity and "flow".

Otter: when I was taking Tai Chi and qi gong, the "master" explained the energy channels, and I am more than willing to believe that if you stimulate them, there might be a physiologic response, but I sure don't buy the detoxify concept. 

Kira

cookiegal

When I had chronic pain that did not repond to meds I did try accupuncture. My doc was doing a clinical trial for LE at the time, but declined to put me in it since I had the possible cellulitis complications.

I think it did help a bit.