Using soy as an estrogen blocker?

irish22

I'm reading a book called The Breast Cancer Prevention Diet and it talks about using soy as an estrogen blocker but only soy that contains genistein. It recommends a daily dose of 60 grams. That seems like not only a lot of soy but scary for those of us that are er+. I'm 95% er positive and when I was dx I asked if there was any food I should avoid and the NP just mentioned limiting my soy intake. Does anyone else have any information or knowledge on this subject? I'm a little confused by this recommendation.

mrkffr11

I'd like info on this topic too.

When recently diagnosed I blindly change diet to include more soy and flax thinking they were a better for you diet choice than what I had been eating (processed lunch meats for example).

I'm confused because I've seen posts that suggest that both soy and flax have properties that mimic estrogen and my dx is ER+.

Not sure if my new 'better' diet is good for me or perhaps more harmful?

abigail48

at the beginning of the change in the cyst I was eating mostly beans & brown rice.  I stopped eating beans then ate a bunch at one point, fairly uncooked & the discomfort in my breast was great.  I also wonder now about the homeopathic remedy of castor oil packs, the oil is from the castor bean.  there was something in another place, about something related to flax, interesting if it too is estrogenic.  most foods are, it seems

Annabella58

Oh my goodness, I was told NO NO DOUBLE NO to both whole soy foods (sauce is fine) and flaxseed, never.

The is a wonderful list of er+ foods on the Memorial Sloan cancer site for you to avoid.

While we cannot avoid estrogen entirely and let's face it, our fat makes it, it is very very wise not to go adding it to our diet!

A good friend took estrovent for menopause.  She is now metastactic and the drs. t heorized that she was literally feeding herself estrogen.  Soy is full of it.  So is Flaxseed.

Go with your oncologist's recc's.  Be safe.

Anonymous

Hello ladies, recent postings on the subject - thread called "Soy":

http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/79/topic/732781?page=1

barbiecorn

I cannot believe how many different opinions we get from the internet....don't know what to believe...I idn't know that flaxseed may not be good....what about flaxseed oil????  I got information from a friend who said that progesterone creams natural ones may counteract estrogen dominance.  Does anyone have any information about this????

Anonymous

Barbiecorn, those who say soy is beneficial have not been able to post any back-up to their claim, I'm still waiting. Are you ER+ ?  If not, then you don't have to worry about soy so much.  But, like I said on that thread, I had been gobbling down soy like there was no tomorrow, and I firmly believe it either caused or fueled my bc

dunesleeper

I am interested in this topic, and I hope the herbalist I meet with on the 31st will be knowledgeable about this. I will share any information I get.

I was taking Essiac tea in pill form until someone on this site informed me that it is a phytoestrogen. I don't know how a phytoestrogen acts on estrogen receptors. Does it block estrogen? Or is it an estrogen? I imagine the same thing is true with the flax seed. Now, I have been using flax seed on the many salads I have been eating since my dx and surgery. Recently I learned that one of the successful alternative cancer cures (yes they call them cures) involved flax seed oil and quark cheese (never heard of it, but cottage cheese works well too). So it seems that a lot of alternative treatments or cures for cancer involve phytoestrogens. However, we are dealing with breast cancer, and in many cases ER+ breast cancer. This causes me some confusion, but I am hoping to get that confusion cleared up. Until then, I am holding on to my Essiac but will probably continue to add flax seed to my salads.

I guess the only absolute for me at this point is sugar. Mom's house (where I am staying for my recovery) is loaded with candy and cookies. I used to raid the stashes frequently. Now it holds no interest for me. If I see a sweet, I think "food to help the cancer grow big and strong" and I have no desire for it. Gee, I wish I could reframe my thinking in some other areas, like exercise and being happy to rise and shine in the mornings!

Anonymous

Hi again Dunesleeper, I thing that most ER+ sisters agree that to avoid phytoestrogens in food is pretty hard to do, but taking it as a supplement is another matter, i.e. MilkThistle, etc.  I too have read that Essiac and flax seeds are estrogenic and because my tumour was 95% pos, I'm not taking any chances.

I was confused too when first dx and still do sometimes.  Most of the books and info written about BC do not distinguish between ER+ and ER neg, don't know why that is.  What struck me the most was that I had a hard time finding DIM (a replacement for Tamox) without soy.

Go figure.... 

dunesleeper

Oh thanks Maud. I hadn't read this and I posted basically the same question on the natural girls forum. This is certainly a very confusing, perhaps the most confusing aspect of my disease and treatment so far. It is frustrating. But I will get to the bottom of it somehow.

Anonymous

Dunesleeper, no doubt about it, the learning curve is extremely steep and the info absolutely overwhelming.  But, like the rest of us, you will wade through and find what works for you, give yourself time.  It has taken me almost two years of rersearch to build a protocol I'm comfortable with.  Don't forget too, we're here for each other 

If you type in phytoestrogens in the search function, many posts will come up - here's a couple of threads I've picked up on the subject

http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/86/topic/774306?page=1#post_2817541

http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/86/topic/780579?page=2#post_2793212 

http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/79/topic/755426?page=1#post_2751009 

http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/79/topic/767800?page=3#post_2461783 

http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/96/topic/777834?page=1#post_2703551 

PS, as if estrogens weren't enough, ER+ girls have to be extra careful about xenoestrogens  

CancerStinks

I am reading the same book as irish22 and stayed up to 3:00 trying to figure out what he was recommending for us ER+ people; not that I would follow the blanket advice of one book written by a celebrity dr., though he does cover himself often by saying the research is not there either way  for us ER+ girls. He repeats this fairly often as well as the entire concept of soy/ fresh ground flax seed (NOT oil) as etrogen blockers (believe it or not, alot of this blocking happens in the colon so eat your fiber to keep things moving! And apples!  From my research, an organic apple a day really can keep the dr away!) and I think this is the first place I saw the Canadian study re: 25 gram ground flax seed muffins shrinking tumors before surgery. Since then I have found it everyhwere it seems. By the time I turned off the light for the last time I was convinced to take the 25 grams of ground flax, but when I woke up with a clearer head, I knew I needed more research and guidance. I think I am now grasping at something to do, something to control, to help myself now that I have 5 yeras of tamoxifen staring me in the face and I have little to no interest in taking it. I bought the book as soon as I read the sentence that said something about, why get synthetic estrogen blocker from a pill when you can get it from your food without those nasty side effects? (Not a quote, but how I remembered the sentiment he was expressing.)  I am currently looking for an oncology nutritionist and will post what I decide to do and why once I have it figured out.  But right now, I am confident with what I am taking as listed in my signature and am working on an anti-inflamatory diet (such as that for a diabetic) to keep my blood sugar even. There is plenty of evidence that Insulin (as released by the pancreas in response to what we eat) and inflamation as a result of that response or lack thereof, create an atmosphere ripe for cancer.  

CancerStinks

Hi Barbiecorn:  I know it is fresh ground flax seed and not the oil that the "experts" say are estrogen blockers.  It has something to do with the actual seeds and hulls and the fiber content they add to our elimination process as well as what our body has to do to break down the seeds. That is also why they say to grind them right before you eat them to start the process of breaking past the hull to the "good stuff" inside. I'm a gardener, and this is also a failry common process when planting hard-hulled seeds:  to score/rough up the covering or soak the seeds before planting. (obviously not to grind plant seeds to a powder, but just get them started!)

Right now I'm not concentrating too much on topical things so I can't help there, though I am still using the "friendly" deodorants and have switched to an electric razor, and am slowly eliminating products with parabens though my doc said the amount we get topically is so little it really won't hurt us.  But I want to do something to help myself and saying no to these personal hygene items is a faily simple thing for me to do and feel like I'm in charge. 

CancerStinks

Hi Maud;  what deos DIM mean?  (an alternative to tamoxifen?)  Many thanks!

sweetbean

http://lifeovercancerblog.typepad.com/.services/blog/6a013486ccff29970c0133f3aac2fb970b/search?filter.q=soy

Here is a link on the Life over Cancer blog regarding soy and its beneficial effects for ER+ women.  I eat both soy and flaxseed.

There is a huge difference between phytoestrogens (like soy and flax) and xenoestrogens (like BPA and parabens).  Phytoestrogens have been found to work similar to Tamoxifen - they block the receptors.  They have just enough estrogen to fool the cancer cell, but not enough estrogen to actually feed it.  My naturopath and my CAM friendly ob-gyn both recommend eating them both. 

sweetbean

Cancerstinks, google DIM and it will come right up.  The name is really long - it's supposed to help your body process estrogen down non-carcinogenic pathways.

CancerStinks

Oh thanks!  I just read your post and had to laugh: I have no idea what it means!  I took a week off from doctors and research and now have a better attitude.  back to the grind tomorrow.  

Anonymous

Hi CancerStinks ! yes, DIM as a substitute to Tamox.  After two years of Tamox, I'm throwing it out for good, no regrets Lol.  DIM stands for Diindolylmethane (cruciferous extract, eg. broccoli, etc.)  If you search DIM on this site, you'll find lots of good info, as many sisters take it instead of Tamox or AIs.  Here's a good link:

http://www.dimfaq.com/site/articles.htm

I've just been checking out BreastDefend and the doctor who formulated the supp says it was tested on triple negative cell lines not on ER pos.  He has this to say which I found pretty interesting:

"While in BCa we differentiate between ER/PR positive and ER/PR negative tumors with Her2-Nu being a third component leading to "triple negative" tumors, a more generalized term can be used categorizing the cancer as hormonal sensitive on one hand or hormonal resistant or hormonal independent on the other. This is commonly used in BCa and PCa to differentiate between the less aggressive estrogen positive and androgen sensitive and the more aggressive triple negative BCa and androgen independent PCa. In this context, and especially in BCa, it is important to differentiate between the primary tumor and the circulating tumor cells (CTC's) that are responsible for the metastatic process. What we often find in BCa, is a higher % of elevated circulating tumor cells in triple negative primary BCa. (http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/3/402)
When the primary tumor is estrogen positive, often the CTC's don't have the same characteristics, being triple negative. Integrative approaches try to identify the nature of the CTC's and will often target the initial and follow-up therapies to address both the primary tumor and the CTC's. They apply CTC (Circulating Tumor Cells) technology, understanding that while the main tumor is ER positive, there may already be a micro component of ER negative or triple negative cells circulating in the system, and these are the cells that will cause the metastatic process. This concept is more developed in the treatment of BCa, and can play an important role in PCa as well.

So, looking at these principles, when we come to treat and prevent BCa, we need to address both categories of tumor cell expression simultaneously, both on a short term and a long-term basis.
Another important therapeutic principle is that in general, it is easier to have a response to ER positive BCa tumors and to androgen independent PCa tumors. In fact, sophisticated integrative medical approaches often try to reverse a tumor that has mutated or transformed from hormonal sensitive to hormonal resistant (and remember that this may be a ratio of expression). In PCa, it means allowing a patient that is not responding to androgen depravation therapy to begin responding. In BCa, it means allowing a patient that stopped responding to aromatase inhibitors to respond to them again.

Now, let's look at the role that different compounds and supplements can play in the treatment of cancer. I won't be able to cover all of them here, but I will use some examples that are included in the breast health formula discussed here.

DIM has been shown to inhibit cancer cell proliferation and induce their apoptosis, working synergistically to enhance the effect of taxotere-induced cell death in cancerous breast cells through inactivation of NF-kappaB (a protein associated with cancer cell proliferation), and inhibits angiogenesis and metastasis of breast cancer cells"

A good discussion about the product at http://themossreports.wordpress.com/2010/10/09/dietary-supplement-for-breast-cancer/

I'm trying to see whether this formula contains soy, if it does it's a NO NO for me. Presently, I take the DIM combo formulated by Dr. Lorna Vanderhaeghe - no soy, just goodies like I3C, green tea, turmeric, calcium D glucarate, rosemary leaf.

Good luck with your protocol, it's taken me two years of research and I realize this is an ongoing project..... 

Anonymous

Phytoestrogens - Friends or Foes? Can Plant Hormones Help Women in Menopause?
Do They Affect Breast Cancer?

Phytoestrogens are weak hormones found in many plants. They are currently being promoted, sometimes in highly refined forms, for relief of the symptoms of menopause. Are they safe? Can they promote breast cancer?

We know that increased exposure to hormones -- such as those used in the cattle industry, those given to women during menopause, those taken by women engaged in hi-tech pregnancy efforts, and even those naturally produced by our own bodies -- increases our risk of being diagnosed with cancer, especially breast cancer. And many believe that hormone-like chemicals -- xenoestrogens -- increasingly found in our food and water, contribute to cancer as well. Doesn't that imply that phytoestrogens will increase cancer risk too?

Virtually everything we eat -- grains, beans, nuts, seeds, seed oils, berries, fruits, vegetables, and roots -- contains phytoestrogens. Scientists measuring the amount of phytoestrogen break-down by-products in the urine of healthy women found that those with the least were four times more likely to be diagnosed with breast cancer than with the most. Phytoestrogens actually appear to protect tissues from the cancer-causing effects of xenoestrogens and other hormonal pollutants.

This seems simple -- eat more phytoestrogens, be healthier -- and it is, so long as we restrict ourselves to eating plants. But when the difference between food and medicine is disregarded, when phytoestrogens are isolated and concentrated, sold to us in pills and candy bars, then the equation changes: phytoestrogens become dangerous hormones, quite capable of promoting cancer.

To get the greatest benefit from phytoestrogenic foods and herbs remember:

1. Isolated phytoestrogens are not as safe as those "in matrix."
2. To make use of plant hormones, you need active, healthy gut flora.
3. Herbs and foods rich in phytoestrogens need to be used in different ways.
4. Phytoestrogens may have different effects on women who do not have their ovaries.

A) Plants contain many types of phytoestrogens; additionally, they contain minerals and other constituents which help our bodies modify the phytoestrogens and so we can use them safely. Red clover, for instance, is mineral-rich and contains all four of the major types of phytoestrogens: lignans, coumestans, isoflavones, and resorcylic acid lactones. It is the world's best-known anti-cancer herb. In general, foods and herbs rich in phytoestrogens, with the possible exception of licorice, show anti-cancer abilities. Isoflavone, however, when isolated (usually from soy) has the opposite effect: In the lab it encourages the growth of breast cancer cells. 

Plant hormones, including most phytoestrogens, can't be used by humans. But we can convert them into ones we can use -- with the help of our gut bacteria. When women take antibiotics, their excretion of phytoestrogens plummets. Get your gut flora going by eating more yogurt, miso, unpasteurized sauerkraut, homemade beers and wines, picked-by-your-own-hands-and-unwashed fruits and salads, sourdough bread, and whey-fermented vegetables. (See Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon for whey-fermented vegetable recipes.)

3. Plants which are exceptionally rich in phytoestrogens are regarded as powerful herbal medicines. Plants which are good sources of phytoestrogens are regarded as foods. While food can certainly be our medicine -- a practice I advocate -- it is also true that medicines are more dangerous than foods. Foods rich in phytoestrogens are different than medicinal herbs rich in phytoestrogens. They have different places in my life.

² I eat phytoestrogenic foods daily in quantity.
² I use phytoestrogenic food-like herbs regularly but not daily and in moderate quantity.
² I take phytoestrogenic herbs rarely, usually in small amounts and for a limited time.

Phytoestrogenic foods are the basis for a healthy diet and a long life. The first food listed is the highest in phytoestrogens. The best diet contains not just one but many choices from each list:

² Whole grains (rye, oats, barley, millet, rice, wheat, corn)
² Edible seeds (buckwheat, sesame, sunflower, pumpkin, amaranth, quinoa)
² Beans (yellow split peas, black turtle beans, baby limas, Anasazi beans, red kidney beans, red lentils, soy beans)
² Leafy greens and seaweed (parsley, nettle, kelp, cabbage, broccoli, kale, collards, lamb's quarter)
² Fruits (olives, cherries, grapes, apples, pears, peaches, plums, strawberries, blackberries, raspberries, salmon berries, apricots, crab apples, quinces, rosehips, blueberries)
² Olive oil and seed oils
² Garlic, onions and their relatives leeks, chives, scallions, ramps, shallot
The exceptions to the rule that plants don't contain human hormones:
² French beans, rice, apple seeds, licorice, and pomegranate seeds contain the "weak" estrogen estrone.

Phytoestrogenic food-like herbs are generally considered longevity tonics. For optimum effect, use only one from the list and stick with it for at least three months. Citrus peel, dandelion leaves and/or roots, fenugreek seeds, flax seeds, green tea, hops, red clover, red wine.

Phytoestrogenic herbs are usually too powerful for long-term use. From the list (which is in alphabetical order), it is safest to use only one herb at a time, and use it only when needed, although that may mean daily use for several months. More information about these herbs, including specific dosages and cautions, is in New Menopausal Years the Wise Woman Way.

Agave root, black cohosh root, black currant, black haw, chasteberries, cramp bark, dong quai root, devil's club root, false unicorn root, ginseng root, groundsel herb, licorice, liferoot herb, motherwort herb, peony root, raspberry leaves, rose family plants (most parts), sage leaves, sarsaparilla root, saw palmetto berried, wild yam root, yarrow blossoms.

D) Most of the warnings about phytoestrogenic herbs center on their proven ability to thicken the uterine wall in animals who have had their ovaries removed. This could encourage cancer, just as taking ERT encourages cancer of the uterus by stimulating cell growth.. Women without ovaries are probably safe eating phytoestrogenic foods, but may want to use phytoestrogenic herbs -- especially ginseng, dong quai, licorice, red clover, and wild yam -- in small amounts and only for short periods.

Phytoestrogens can be our friends. In a world that seems increasingly hostile and threatening, green allies offer us ways to stay safe and healthy, so long as we use them with wisdom and honor"

By Susun Weed 

reyepsf

Thanks for posting this very interesting article from 2002. Do you know if any new research has been done and if this school of thought has become more mainstream? I am ER+ PR+ Her2 and the same foods and herbs I used to minimize the effects of menopause when I went through it naturally 5 years ago are usually listed as phytoestrogens that hormone receptor positive women are being told to avoid. I KNOW these will help with side effects of Letrozole because they worked with those same symptoms of menopause. I also faithfully took Fenugreek, Maca and Ashwaghanda. I would like to resume, but I'm hesitant because Sloan Kettering and other reputable cancer treatment centers and research facilities have warnings about them. I would not take without my oncologist's approval, but if I show him the research, I think he'd be fine with it.Hope you're doing well! Thanks for your insight.

Momine

I suspect the short answer is that nobody knows at this point what role phytoestrogens play in breast cancer. I drove myself a little nuts with it initially. Now I take the approach that if I eat whole foods in a balanced, varied diet, I won't worry about it. However, I avoid herbal supplements that are supposed to help menopausal symptoms etc.