An Alternative approach to Stage IV Health and choices

thats-life-

Have we discussed Metformin on this thread? this link was uploaded for me on the Metformin thread. It is a stage IV trial. I suppose, as I am considering taking metformin (with my GP's approval) (but havent mentioned it to onc ) it would be considered alternative treatment. I would take the same amount as the women in the trial I suppose, but I am a bit nervous. I read a very inspiring post by a husband who's wife is Stage IV, in the same Metformin thread. I would really like to discuss this in detail. I wish Joylieswithin was still here!!! I remember we discussed it as a theory, but not so much about actually taking it. Anyway, is anyone else interested in looking into this?, or are in the process of making the decision like me?, or would like to help me find those studies we found back then (my last comp crashed with all my bookmarked studies) oops, I forgot the link ......

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01310231?term=breast+cancer+and+metformin&rank=4     

thats-life-

9th Feb 2012:

"....In mice, the study found that fasting cycles without chemotherapy could slow the
growth of breast
cancer, melanoma, glioma and human neuroblastoma. In
several cases, the fasting cycles were as effective as chemotherapy." '

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/241378.php

Human trials, you will read, are being set up, but firstly, designed only to see if fasting is detrimental to health.

Kaara

I'm no expert on fasting, but my DS does fasting on a regular basis (religious reasons) and he is in perfect health.  He has never had one bad SE other than a headache at the beginning.  He claims that after several days, you feel great with more energy.  I haven't tried it.  Many people do this, so I don't see why they need a trial to see if it's detrimental to health.

The Gerson Therapy is very similar in that you fast on juices only, which helps kill the tumor.  You are, however, still getting dose dense nutrition into your body.  This is something I wish that there could be some clinical trials done on, but then the medical community would have to admit that they were wrong to suppress this doctor's work for all these years!

I also read Chris Meck's story about his stage IV wife and giving her Metformin.  It was inspiring, and I can't imagine a doctor refusing this drug for someone who had nothing to lose by trying it.  I personally think from all that I've read that it is a safe drug, and all cancer patients should be on it for preventive means.  I haven't been successful in getting it from either my MO or my naturopath.  My naturopath doesn't like it simply because it's a prescription drug, but would have given it to me if he had found any circulating cancer cells in my body, which he did not.  Right now he's got me on a low dose of Naltroxene, which he thinks does the same thing as Metformin.  

Heidihill

Probably not a good idea to fast and take metformin at the same time, but who knows? I will try intermittent fasting again next month. I have a bit more stress these days and need to be able to snack all day.

There are side effects to metformin as with all drugs. My sister's skin color started changing, so her doctor stopped it and said the exercise was enough to keep her blood glucose under control.

sweetbean

How do you get enough protein on a juice fast?  I was thinking of doing some sort of cleanse, but I don't understand how you get your protein.

AlaskaAngel

that's life,

I had seen the same study. It is yet another indicator that the easy-to-sell, easy-to-buy-into sales pitch we get, that we can get rid of our cancer by using toxic (nasty) chemo to kill each cancer cell as it is dividing, may be more myth than truth.

Chemotherapy apparently does not kill stem cells. So all that trauma and drama of heroically marching through chemotherapy to be "saved" by it seems pretty unlikely to me.

In hindsight after having done chemotherapy, I think maybe oncologists should quit pretending chemo does much at all other than wipe out most of the other kinds of cancer cells and buy time until they build up again. Maybe they should have taken a much closer look at the study of endocrine processes like metabolism in the first place, to find a more permanent solution to the problem.

A.A.

sweetbean

In hindsight after having done chemotherapy, I think maybe oncologists should quit pretending chemo does much at all other than wipe out most of the other kinds of cancer cells and buy time until they build up again.

AA, I think you make a good point and it may well be true.  (But I'll take a huge reduction of cancer cells over nothing at all.)  On one hand, I  think it also makes a good case for looking into therapies/nutrients/supplements that can kill stem cells or induce apoptosis, such as sulforaphane. One the other hand, I wonder if chemo induces apoptosis in stem cells in some other fashion.  It's so complex!

Heidihill

Taxanes, from what I recall, do kill stem cells but not as effectively as we would want. Blood boosters and steroids have also been shown in some studies to kill cancer stem cells. For a person who needs fast-acting therapy at stage 4 and can tolerate it, this combination may be called for. I certainly don't regret receiving it. My onc admits it was about buying time. If I feel better and live to see my daughter reach adulthood, I'm happy. in general, I feel we shouldn't minimize the importance of killing normal cancer cells even if stem cells remain. It's possible normal cells provide a reserve pool of stem cells to grow, so why not get rid of them? Do we know that hormonal therapy kills stem cells? It certainly can keep cancer dormant for extended periods. Having said that, I think we at all stages should be looking at metabolic solutions to keep cancer dormant or kill stray cells. A combined approach is probably best. I'm doing an AI, intermittent intermittent fasting, daily exercise, low-carb.

I also think there is something to hyperthermia for breast cancer. More on this later.

Sweetbean I think the idea of the Gerson diet is to have no protein. I could be wrong.

AlaskaAngel

Heidihill,

While I don't believe chemo did much if anything for me, I can't know for sure.

But your mention of the possible effects of steroids is one I've thought might have worked for me. The sad thing is that if it did, the misery of the chemo wasn't needed. I have wondered if the steroids may have been what worked for me because I never had trastuzumab, but in order to tolerate the chemo the steroids had to be doubled for me for my chemo treatments.

It seems like such a foolish waste of information not to be considering and separating out the differences in our treatments for possible effects from the support drugs and not from the intended treatment drug(s).

A.A.

thats-life-

Radiation Treatment Generates Cancer Stem Cells from Less Aggressive Breast Cancer Cells, Study Suggests....13th feb 2012:

"....Breast cancer stem cells are thought to be the sole source of tumor recurrence and are known to be resistant to radiation therapy and don't respond well to chemotherapy. Researchers report for the first time that radiation treatment -- despite killing half of all tumor cells during every treatment -- transforms other cancer cells into treatment-resistant breast cancer stem cells. Researchers stressed that breast cancer patients should not be alarmed by the study findings and should continue to undergo radiation if recommended by their oncologists."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120213185115.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fhealth_medicine%2Fbreast_cancer+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Health+%26+Medicine+News+--+Breast+Cancer%29

thats-life-

uuummm, ok, I wont be alarmed. This is a freakin circus.

sweetbean

Seriously.  Good Lord.  I had radiation.  How terrifying.

Kaara

OK...let me know when you get this all worked out.  In the meantime, I'm glad I decided to forego raidation.  I went so far as to get the scan and setup but then I just couldn't go through with it.  It just felt like an overkill for my type of bc.

AlaskaAngel

At age 49 I thought maybe I was doing pretty well. I'd had one mammogram at age 38 and the next one at age 49, which picked up the cancer. Since then I have been toasted, roasted and filleted. Sad to say, I more or less figured that radiation I got are what are so innocently called "second tumors" locally, and that I am close to the head of the line for one eventually.

The funny thing about it is that the chief of the rads center who did the calculations for my treatment at the brand new rads center managed to fry my newly lumpectomized, previously perky and proud breast. So maybe cooking it and making it hard and painful cooked the stem cells too?

A.A.

TectonicShift

I haven't read this entire thread so I don't know if the topic of fasting just ahead of chemo treatments has been discussed, but here is the latest article on it. It may make chemo more effective. My onc is okay with me trying it as long as I stay very well hydrated.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fasting-might-boost-chemo

thats-life-

From your article posy, thanks for your input:) ..."Fasting appears to protect normal cells from chemotherapy's toxic effects by rerouting energy from growing and reproducing to internal maintenance. But cancer cells do not undergo this switch to self-repair and so continue to be susceptible to drug-induced damage-making for what the researchers call a differential stress resistance. Fasting, then, the authors wrote, should enhance the power of chemotherapies without having to resort to "the more typical strategy of increasing the toxicity of drugs."

thats-life-

Here's more from the link I added. I try to be careful to not get caught up in the 'with chemo as opposed to chemo alone' jargon.

"Man may not live by bread alone, but cancer in animals appears less resilient,
judging by a study that found chemotherapy drugs work better when combined with
cycles of short, severe fasting.

Even fasting on its own effectively
treated a majority of cancers tested in animals, including cancers from human
cells.

The study in Science Translational Medicine, part of the
Science family of journals, found that five out of eight cancer types in mice
responded to fasting alone: Just as with chemotherapy, fasting slowed the growth
and spread of tumors."

thats-life-

Sweetbean..are you and I the only people here who are horrified by the link to radiation and BC stem cell production?? are people in denial?, or shock like me... I am now wondering about bone mets/palliative radiation...and progression....This should be looked into immediately. Maybe those long term metsers didnt have radiation? maybe it would stay in the bone for years? Not to forget the millions of earlier stage women and men who have had radiation. Maybe the majority just dont like posting on this thread..oh well, lets hope just one person sees it, and benefits from it.

thats-life-

oops, sorry kaara, just saw your post too. Im glad you said no too, certainly until more information is available 

thats-life-

and yours AA...Im blown away. Your analogy is apt.

Heidihill

There is just one problem with fasting for stage 4, as mentioned in one study I saw. If you are already rapidly losing weight due to cachexia, you should NOT be fasting. This was my case and I have always been thin. My cancer had already found a way to feast from my muscles. And because every cancer is different some who are not cachexic may have cancers that will find energy sources from muscles after a fasting regimen alone, if these cancers are not otherwise being weakened or distracted. Chemo resistance, why not fasting resistance?

Based on known cancer behavior I am not surprised that radiation can create aggressive cancer cells. Again some cancers probably are destined to become aggressive and others to stay indolent. Some cancers more sensitive to radiation some not. To each her own cancer. So I'm glad to have received multimodal therapy at the point where I was (stage 4 at the get go). I'm really not sure anything else would have worked for me in hindsight. Each therapy weakened the cancer, TACx6 with Zometa every three weeks with all the support drugs, antibiotics for all the infections I got, pain relievers, sleep aids. NED after 5 cycles. Then mastectomy and Femara. Femara supposedly makes cells more sensitive to radiation. Then 28 sessions targeting multiple sites. More surgery for infections, more antibiotics.

So far 4 years NED. In between I've changed my diet, exercised, fasted, sunbathed, steambathed, had massages (very healing!), supplemented when necessary. How long my cancer will remain dormant, I don't know. Maybe those remaining cells will be more aggressive, but as long as they're dormant it doesn't matter.

Kaara

Perhaps when they talk about fasting, they mean a green juice fast.  When I was first dx with bc, I went on a juice fast to cleanse my body and put it in an alkaline state so that cancer would have difficullty growing.

 Cancer feeds on glucose that is converted from the simple carbs that we eat daily, like rice, pasta, potatoes, white flour, sugar, etc.  By eliminating all of this from your diet, you are getting nutrient dense foods, but the cancer doesn't thrive in an alkaline environment.  You can test to see if your body has reached that state with strips that you buy at the local health food store.  I reached the optimal state in about a week, and my body was detoxed.  After that I switched to an anti cancer diet of mainly veggies, lean protein, and some fruit and nuts (gluten free).  I wasn't overweight, but I lost about 12 pounds and then leveled off.  Most of it was around my middle where the fat cells are stored, and also where the estrogen that feeds my type of bc is found.  Along with diet I take a lot of supplements prescribed by my naturopathic doctor, along with weekly IV infusions with cancer preventive meds.  No guarantees it will work, but there are no guarantees with conventional treatments either.  I'm feeling great!

I think diet is the first line of defense, and hopefully the medical field is beginning to recognize that.  Why not just acknowledge that the Gerson Therapy was on the right track all along. 

sweetbean

But no protein?  How is that possibly good for you?

lulubee

Heidi, your story is fascinating, and encouraging.  I would really like to know more about your history along the way with supplementation, fasting, and diet.

Kaara, you too -- I would like to hear what supplements you take and what infusions you are getting weekly.  

If y'all have already spelled this out elsewhere or earlier on this thread, please don't spend valuable time reinventing those posts on my account -- just maybe tell me some search clues and I'll gladly look up your posts myself. 

I've been at this for almost five years, and I'm still tweaking my supplement regimen every few weeks.  I still have much to learn -- and I suspect my young ND does, too.  So I like to hear other perspectives.

sweetbean

I'm really interested in a 3 day juice fast when I am done healing from my exchange, but the no protein thing really gets me....

AlaskaAngel

Sweetbean, I think Kaara mentioned lean protein -- just emphasizing the need to get rid of the white starches/sugars and then focusing on the pH, eating mostly veggies, with some fruit. I haven't focused on the pH myself but it may be mine is correct just by eating primarily vegetarian and organic.

(Wow, did I ever get some really good wild red salmon at the store this week...!!)

Had I not spent time around rads people and looked into it previously I would have been more horrified about the stem cell issue. I never have been able to comprehend the casual acceptance by patients but even more so of care providers, of radiation. I think about the multiplying effect for those in Japan of rads from WWII and rads from the reactors and my soul hurts for the animals of all kinds that have been caught up in it.

A.A.

sweetbean

AA,  interesting - I thought on a juice fast, you could only drink juice.  I was thinking of doing all juice, plus two protein smoothies per day.  I wonder if that would be a good compromise or if I would just miss the point of the fast.  

You know, I can cope with the idea of side effects from radiation - what freaks me out is the idea of mets from radiation.  Good Lord, what was it all for? 

thats-life-

Heidi, I hope no one in a cachexia state would consider fasting without a doctor's supervision.I remember we discussed cachexia a year or more ago when I started this thread, it was one of my big fears, and i was trying to find information to try and prevent it. How did you find out cells were using your muscles, is there a test for that?, and what were you told to do, or what did you do to come back from that condition? I remember you said exercise helped, but what about diet? what was recommended to you?

I will look into Metformin and fasting, maybe they do the same thing?

Thanks for sharing your treatment story, my goal is to keep those cancer cells dormant too :

AlaskaAngel

heidihill: What effect might you achieve by using some testosterone to help build muscle? It has been used in the past for treatment of cancer.

thats life: Dr. Lisanti's work is one explanation of how the metformin works, if you google that, especially using "Achilles heel".

sweetbean: What was it all for......  THAT is what I wonder when it comes to moving the threshold for chemo into lower and lower stages, and the resulting weight gain that comes from menopause. How many end up doing chemotherapy to be put into menopause and then have their risk increased back to where it was before chemo or higher due to the weight gain and metabolic changes? I'm serious. There has been zero focus by health care providers on the need to prevent weight gain during or as a result of treatment until very recently, and no advance counseling about it from the zealous oncs to prepare us for it.

sweetbean

AA, I think you have to factor in age.  Young women under 40 generally get chemo, even if they are Stage 1, because their prognosis is historically worse than women over 40.  And many come out of chemopause - I did at 38.  (I was quite surprised.)  I haven't gained any weight as a result of chemo.  But for older women, there may indeed be overkill.

However, I am quite happy about the oncotype test because I think it helps people weed out who doesn't need chemo.  Hopefully, we will continue in the direction of more efficient and less toxic treatments.