TRIPLE POSITIVE GROUP

edwsmom

Question - I see that some went on to continue having a period after chemo. That didn't happen for me. It's six months since chemo ended and I've not had a period since my last one during the first round of chemo.

Does anyone know the significance of this? Is this a good thing (less estrogen?)

SpecialK

edwsmom - the absence of a period does not necessarily correlate with estrogen levels. Generally the rule of thumb is 12 months without a period to be considered menopausal, but since chemo can mess with all of this I would want either the MO or GYN to do a hormone panel to see where your levels are. I have seen more than one here on BCO without a period, both before and after chemo, that had pre-meno estrogen levels.

lago

Fluffqueen, Yes that is true. More benefit for recurrence or new diagnosis in breast. No survival benefit. Check out this discussion on metscape. (Doesn't cost anything to join)

What Will You Tell Breast Cancer Patients About MA-17R? (study)
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/864445

Mommato3

edwsmom, I have read a few stories where women went 12-24 months before their periods come back. My MO tested my hormones levels which showed I was in menopause. Two months later I told her I felt like I was premenopausal again based on my symptoms. Sure enough, the blood test showed I was. Just remember that if you take an AI and are not menopausal, the AI didn't give you any benefit. My MO told me I had to take Tamoxifen (unless I did OS) for at least a year before she would consider allowing me to take an AI. There is no way to know for sure (for a certain amount of time) if the chemo pushed you into permanent menopause if you were premenopausal prior to. I was hoping my periods wouldn't come back but unfortunately that didn't happen.

Mommato3

Here's the article in case you didn't want to join Medscape. I found it very interesting to see what some of the MOs are planning to tell their patients.

What Will You Tell Breast Cancer Patients About MA-17R?

Nick MulcahyJune 06, 2016

CHICAGO — When breast cancer clinicians return to their jobs from this year's American Society of Clinical Oncology (ASCO) 2016 Annual Meeting, they will likely face inquiries from postmenopausal patients who are or have been receiving adjuvant antiestrogen therapy about the MA.17R study that was featured at the plenary session.

The trial results were published in the New England Journal of Medicine and have been widely covered in mainstream media, such as the New York Times and the BBC.

The 1918-patient trial demonstrated that extending treatment with an aromatase inhibitor (letrozole [Femara, Novartis Pharmaceuticals Company], 2.5 mg daily) to 10 years after an initial 5 years of therapy with an aromatase inhibitor/tamoxifen (multiple brands) improves disease-free survival (but not overall survival).

Specifically, the disease-free survival rate for the additional 5 years was 95% for patients treated with letrozole and 91% for patients receiving placebo — an absolute improvement of 4% for patients on treatment.

This translated into a 34% reduction in the relative risk for disease recurrence/occurrence of a contralateral breast cancer (hazard ratio, 66%; P = .01) for the treatment group.

However, the improvement with the extra 5 years of treatment came at a cost. Most notably, there were more bone fractures in the letrozole group than in the placebo group (14% vs 9%; P = .001) and more cases of new-onset osteoporosis (11% vs 6%; P < .001).

"Bone health remains important to risk/benefit consideration," said the study's lead author, Paul Goss, MD, PhD, of the Massachusetts General Hospital Cancer Center, in Boston, at a meeting press conference.

Median follow-up in the study was 6.3 years; the median age of the patients was 65 years.

At a postplenary discussion of the results, Dr Goss did not advocate for the use of letrozole for an additional 5 years in postmenopausal women with hormone-positive primary tumors, saying he wanted to leave that to guideline committees and others. Clinicians can do "what they want to" with the data, he said.

To get a sense of what clinicians will tell patients about the study ― and whether or not they will advocate for the extra 5 years of treatment ― Medscape Medical News interviewed a number of oncologists attending the meeting.

Here is what five clinicians will be telling their patients about MA.17R and about taking an aromatase inhibitor for potentially 10 years.

Patricia Ganz, MD, University of California, Los Angeles. "This is a question that comes up frequently in practice. There are many women who are doing well on their AI therapy and have anxiety about discontinuing their medication, and [they wonder] what is going to prevent them from having a recurrence.

This is a question that comes up frequently in practice. Dr Patricia Ganz

"I will pull up the New England Journal article and show them that roughly 1000 women received the drug vs 1000 who received placebo, and if we compare the outcomes, we see 31 fewer recurrences [of any type] in those who took the drug [67 vs 98]. The majority of the [recurrence] benefit was in contralateral breast cancers [13 vs 31]. In terms of distant recurrence, there was a difference of only 11 cases [42 vs 53].

"I will also talk about the increased risk of fractures that occurred [in the active-treatment group] and subtle differences in quality of life. If they discontinue their aromatase inhibitor, they might have a return of some of the benefits of having estrogen in their body — some may appreciate that, some may not.

"I use this high-level evidence [from the study] to have discussion about their values and preferences. They may decide to stick it out longer to see how they do. Two or three years later, they may also decide to quit. And I can support that decision, because the number of events prevented by taking the medication for another 5 years is rather modest. At the same time, everyone taking the drug has the potential to have fractures and other symptoms.

"In terms of additional insights, our hope for this study is [that further analysis may answer the question]: Is there a high-risk profile? The absolute benefit of treatment may be greater for women with large tumors or those with lots of positive nodes. If we had that information, we could tailor who we recommend to have the extra treatment."

Stephen Vogl, MD, private practice, New York City. "I am going to tell my patients: the extra years of treatment didn't do much. They had a 30% reduction in distant metastases, but it is not clear if they are prevented or just delayed; it is not clear how lethal they are. The virulence of breast cancer relates to the time to recurrence [with earlier being more virulent]. These are very late recurrences, and nine of the extra 11 distance metastases were in bone, which are really not virulent.

No, don't bother. Dr Stephen Vogl

"I have patients who have been waiting for [the results]. I have been telling them: 'I am going to come back and tell you whether you should take some more of it or not.' Some of them have been off for a few years. I'm going to tell them, 'No, don't bother.' "

Harold Burstein, MD, Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, Boston. We have known from other trials that pushing the treatment envelope out to 10 years is a good idea. Ten years of tamoxifen is a little better than 5 years of tamoxifen; 5 years of tamoxifen and then 5 years of an aromatase inhibitor is a little better than 5 years of tamoxifen alone [which was the earlier study, MA- 17].

"The topline result is, yes, longer durations do reduce the risk of recurrence and do help prevent second cancers.

"But I think, for the clinical discussion, it comes down to two things: The first is, what is the patient's risk of recurrence, based on what we already know about the stage of the cancer? And number two, how well has that patient tolerated treatment so far?

For the clinical discussion, it comes down to two things. Dr Harold Burstein

"For women who have had high-risk breast cancer ― typically, stage 2 or 3 cancers, node-positive breast cancers ― their risk moving on in years 5 to 10, 10 to 15 is still reasonably high. And for those women, there is going to be a larger benefit to continuing treatment and pushing the therapy out to a total of 10 years. But in contrast, for the women who had smaller, node-negative cancers, there is probably going to be a lot less in the way of benefit ― their residual risk is a lot smaller.

"The second thing to discuss is how the patient is doing. Women will tell us how they are feeling on these AIs. Some women have symptoms, but it does not get in the way of their lifestyle, or they have very few symptoms at all. Those women will be willing to take longer durations of treatment even for a small benefit.

"Other patients who have a lot of difficulty taking the medications...stopping probably makes sense for them.

"But what I have found is that patients are really good at telling their doctor what the appropriate length of treatment is, because they intuitively understand how risky their cancer is at this juncture, and they understand how they have felt taking the medication."

Barry Kaplan, MD, PhD, Queens Medical Associates, Fresh Meadows, New York. "The benefits are small. There are no data showing improved survival. There are real side effects. It is an expensive treatment. Even though Dr Goss said it was a relatively cheap drug, if you take it for 10 years, it becomes not so cheap. I don't see the point of recommending or using it [for the extra 5 years]. I think the benefits are not proven if you are not getting a survival benefit. These patients have already survived for some time, so these are good patients with hormone-responsive breast cancer. I would not use this treatment after the first 5 years unless the patients really demand it."

Dawn Hershman, MD, Herbert Irving Comprehensive Cancer Center, Columbia University, New York City. "At the end of the day, there needs to be a discussion with each patient about the potential risks and benefits.

"I am more likely to encourage continuing treatment after the first 5 years for patients with high risk of recurrence, patients who still have both breasts and are at risk, and patients who have had minimal or no side effects on AIs.

"Also, for some women, especially those with few side effects, the medication can feel like a 'security blanket.' And discontinuing can cause stress and anxiety.

Discontinuing can cause stress and anxiety. Dr Dawn Hershman

"The bulk of the [disease-free survival] benefit in the study was from a reduction of in-breast recurrences.... For women with minimal side effects, prevention of an in-breast recurrence or new primary may be meaningful, as it results in decreased need for surgery or other adjuvant treatments.

"The reality is that the patients in MA.17R agreed to be on a study of taking the medication for an additional 5 years after being on it for 5. Presumably, if they had severe side effects, they may not have been willing to be randomized on this study. Therefore, these results may not be representative of the whole population of women on aromatase inhibitors.

"The discussions with patients will be more difficult when someone has had severe side effects and makes it through the first 5 years."

The trial was sponsored by the Canadian Cancer Trials Group. The authors have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.

N Engl J Med. Published online June 5, 2016. Full tex

adotson79

Thanks lago, ashla, meg2016.. This is all so new and foreign to me but I am trying to become as knowledgeable as I possibly can! Got my Life Port placed today. Chemo counseling tomorrow, then first TX Monday morning! Yeah, they prescribed 3 anti-nausea meds for me to have on hand. I hate taking pills, but will do whatever it takes to get thru this! I know some ppl have continued to work thru chemo, but with my job in Respiratory at the hospital and the types of patients I am exposed to, I have decided to take a leave for the duration of my TXs. Did anyone else have a hard time working or making the decision to not work?

ElaineTherese

adotson,

I worked through chemo, but I only had to be on campus for two days of the week. The rest of the time, I could work at home or anywhere. I did some of my best work in bed, typing on a laptop. My students were a pretty germy group, but I survived. If I had a more physically demanding job, I probably would have taken a leave.

SpecialK

adotson - I also worked in a hospital and elected to take a leave during chemo because I was in a bio-hazardous location (blood transfusion compatability testing lab), plus I had half a dozen surgeries in the 12 weeks between BMX and first chemo - I was definitely behind the 8 ball on energy.

Blownaway

dotson - I worked through chemo. My infusions were 3 weeks apart on Thursdays and I always took the following Friday off.

Tresjoli2

Sitting in chair 15 for the last time! I have my last herceptin today, followed by port removal surgery. Yay me!

SpecialK

tres - yay for you!!!

BBwithBC45

Dotson, I also worked through my chemo, but I have a desk job and I was allowed to work from home.

ElaineTherese

Tresjoli!

Congrats on finishing Herceptin! You must be thrilled to be finished with active treatment.

Creativevintage

Congratulations on finishing your Heceptin! I have my final Herceptin on the 22nd and port removal the next day. It's been a long year! I am on letrazole and I am having a few side effects (occasional sweaty hot flashes and my ankles and wrists ache in the mornings) but honestly, since I had nodal involvement prior to chemo, I would stay on the stuff for the rest of my life if I thought for a minute that it might prevent the cancer from coming back. I am about to start Prolia because I have osteoporosis in my right hip after the chemo. I am hoping for not too many side effects from that. I did have one infusion of Zometa and I had flu symptoms for a few days and horrible aching in my hips for about a month.

ashla

Yay creativevintage Tresjoli!

Yay everyone in this forum and those who follow us....

"Start by doing what's necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible."

Francis of Assisi

amylsp

It's such a great feeling to be done with the infusions. Enjoy your new freedom!

Pdrchick

ADotson79 - I decided to go on short term disability during my treatment. I work a desk job, but it's in finance and pretty stressful. I'm so happy I decided to take some time off. I'm doing really well through my treatment (TCHP) and I really think that not having the stress of work helps tremendously. Good luck to you!

mltdd

I worked as much as I could during chemo. With each treatment I was able to work less and less. I had just about every possible side effect though.

Tresjoli2

Thanks all. Aside from a blown vein all is well...just wiped out...I think I am emotionally exhausted. What a long day...

Anonymous

Tres...congrats! It's both a great feeling and a little bit nervous one. My late onc gave me a certificate and a big hug which made me get all teary eyed. I told him I felt like graduating from school...I've got the certificate but now what lol.

Lago...i joined medscape a while back and had read that article. Clear as mud right? I think it opened the door to more questions than it answered if you are looking beyond a recurrence in the breast.

On time off...I had been a realtor for a couple years and always had great jobs but ones that required a lot of hours. I just decided that for once I was taking time to focus on me for the first time and took a leave. Like Special K however, what I thought was going to be 4 months or so turned into 18 due to all the unexpected surgeries. I did work with a few family members who were buying homes but that was it

lago

Fuff I talked to the Rheumatologist on Thursday and the study came up. She seemed very away of this and also agreed that benefit was in the breast (for both recurrence and new diagnosis). BUT the study isn't over yet. Only time will tell if it helps with distant mets… then she went on to talk about the studies showing Prolia preventing bone mets (We didn't discuss but also Zometa/Reclast seems to help prevent bone mets too).

So at least I'm on Prolia. She also said issues with brittle bone was more of an issue with long term oral drugs like Fosamax than Prolia. Funny but I thought it was the opposite.

fightergirl711

I worked, just took infusion days off. But I also work from home. I just haven't done any traveling since I was diagnosed, and won't until radiation is over. There was one day I just couldn't get out of bed, I had two infusions left of AC, and was feeling terrible. I think it was the culmination of everything getting me down.

I had my re-excision and ALND on Tuesday, won't get the path report until Monday or Tuesday. I admit I'm totally nervous that they will still see cancer despite all the drugs these last 6 months. On the flip side, the pain meds help me sleep at night. So there's that.

ElaineTherese

lago,

I talked to MO about the AI article on Wednesday. Like your rheumatologist, she believes that we won't know the ultimate impact of 10 years of AI for some time. The results that were published are partial; only time will tell whether or not 10 years of an AI affects overall survival rates. She's more interested in survival rates than recurrence rates.

Cowgirl13

could someone explain the difference between survival rates and recurrence rates. I can't seem to get it. Thank you. BTW has anyone noticed that we are on page 1000! Thank you Ton Le

adotson79

Pdrchick

I've decided to use my short term from work as well. It was a big decision but I believe it is the best one for me. I work in a hospital, 12 hr shifts, around very sick patients. The possible exposure is just not worth it to me. I start chemo Monday morning so my leave will start the following week. I honesty feel like this leave will make a huge difference in my outcome.

ashla

Cowgirl13

Cancer recurrence is defined as the return of cancer after treatment and after a period of time during which the cancer cannot be detected. (The length of time is not clearly defined.) The same cancer may come back where it first started or somewhere else in the body.

So cancer can recur (return) conceivably multiple times but it can conceivably be successfully treated and not result in death

Survival rates refers to the rate at which people survive their cancer and their treatments regardless of the number of recurrences.

SpecialK

Important to also distinguish between local, regional and distant recurrence, and their potential effect on survival. For recent discussion purposes, referring to the 5 vs 10 year study of AI drugs, I understand the reduction in recurrence to be local (specifically contralateral) and regional, and not distant, thus the lack of impact on the survival stats. Also, to muddy the water is DFS/RFS and OS - Disease/Relapse Free Survival and Overall Survival, which is not necessarily disease free.

Cowgirl13

Thanks Ashla and Special K. It's been hard to wrap my head around this. I get the contra lateral but what would be considered regional? I've been on generic arimidex for over 6 years. Seeing my onc in July. Again, thank you.

SpecialK

cowgirl - regional is usually in remaining axillary nodes, nodes near the collarbone, or chest wall

Cowgirl13

Got it. Thank you!