I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

crazy4carrots

kellyj:  Ann Coulter and her agent made the decision not to speak in Ottawa.  As PiP says, the students had the freedom of speech to tell the University that they weren't interested in having her speak at their school.  Francois Houle merely reminded Ms Coulter that Canada does have hate laws and that she should be cognizant of that fact.

BTW, there really isn't anything FREE in this world anymore, is there?  Total freedom of speech often has nasty repercussions.....for at least some people.

lassie11

2tzus wrote: "Obviously Canada has some problems with religious preaching the tenets of their faith. Will they outlaw the freedom to practice religion?"

No really - we keep telling you the same thing. Please watch your slippery slope logic. We have rules against hate speech. People in Canada can practise whatever religion they want. Nothing will change that. The law clearly outlines what constitutes hate speech. You can google it.

bluedahlia

I haven't seen a problem in that area.  We have all kinds of churches, even Hare Krishna.  A beautiful Mosque was recently built and I can't wait to go see it. 

kellyj

Very interesting, thanks Canadians!

bluedahlia

Well the Roman Catholic Church's views about homosexuality are not discussed, even though we know where they stand on the issue.  They may say it is wrong, but they don't turn it into a hate speech. Maybe its a matter of diplomacy.

Anonymous

5 hours ago

revkat wrote:

Oh Barbara, I know what the story is. The story is that we live in a violent culture (nice list of Canadian crimes, Otter, but they pale in comparison with what happens in the US on a daily basis). And that culture is nurtured by words and watered by access to firearms that have no purpose other than the killing of humans, and shaped by the demonization of "the other" ie, people who are not like us.

revkat, I signed off right after I read your response before this one.  I was starting to feel better about getting past the blame game. 

Do you think that any of those 150,000 murdered could have been gang related, spouse who killed (my dd worked for the domestic violence shelter), murdering of children, just ordinary bad people?  Do you honestly think that this political atmosphere causes all the crime of which you are speaking?  Do you think taking guns out of the hands of MOST American citizens will stop the murders or crimes?  Really?

lassie11

What people were fined? Where? When and for what reason?

A guy named Ernst Zundel was in trouble for teaching and writing that the Holocaust didn't happen. That was hate speech. I don't know about any incident you are mentioning regarding homosexuality but hate speech is hate speech even if it is disguised as religion. Why would that be a necessary part of any religion?

We seem to be managing just fine without any great collisions between the hate speech laws and religions.

Once again, if you want to know specifically what is defined as hate speech, go ahead and google it.

bluedahlia

I'm off to bed, but before I go, I have to say that I agree with lassie.  I'm not aware of any conflicts.  Shrilly, relax!  You girls over there are on the edge.  Not good for the health.  You seem to be projecting your actions and fears on us.

kadeeb

I think Canada is trying to "refine" their idea of free speech. Here in the US you can pretty much say anything your want to to anyone you want to ,with the exception of threatening someone's life. Even that exemption lends itself to multiple interpretations of what constitutes a threat. Hate is not against the law nor is some dip wad spouting it from every street corner in the nation. Canada has evidently tried to alleviate itself of some of our less than pleasant orators.

In irony, if you kill someone here in the US you can be tried for a "hate" crime. There are federal laws against hate crimes and federal law can take charge of the investigation.

I find it interesting that there is not a federal law against murder. The FBI sometimes runs into road blocks when asked to assist by the state. The crime has to involve crossing state lines or a federal employee (as in Arizona).  

konakat

Info on hate crimes:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hatecrimes/

Alpal

I'm signing off, too. But, I really want to discuss gun control tomorrow. I'm not against guns. Everyone I know has one or more for protection in their home, some even have one in their car. I know many hunters and I also know several collectors. I'm ok with that. BUT - what is the purpose of private citizens have semi - automatics?  I'm really curious about how everyone feels about that. Night!

208sandy

Google Kinder egg globe and mail - then read some of the comments - it says it all!

konakat

Here's a bit from the link I posted about hate crimes -- I highlighted the bit about religious freedom.

Sections 318 and 319 of the Criminal Code of Canada address hate crimes.

Under Section 318, it is a criminal act to "advocate or promote genocide" - to call for, support, encourage or argue for the killing of members of a group based on colour, race, religion or ethnic origin. As of April 29, 2004, when Bill C-250, put forward by NDP MP Svend Robinson, was given royal assent, "sexual orientation" was added to that list.

Section 319 deals with publicly stirring up or inciting hatred against an identifiable group based on colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation. It is illegal to communicate hatred in a public place by telephone, broadcast or through other audio or visual means. The same section protects people from being charged with a hate crime if their statements are truthful or the expression of a religious opinion.

Anonymous

bluedahlia wrote:

I'm off to bed, but before I go, I have to say that I agree with lassie.  I'm not aware of any conflicts.  Shrilly, relax!  You girls over there are on the edge.  Not good for the health.  You seem to be projecting your actions and fears on us.

Awww, blue, I hate to disagree with you because I like you tooooo much.  I just want the blaming to stop.  It's ridiculous.  And so far there have been no facts to what the pundits and some congressmen/women are saying.  It needs to stop now.  The people who are suffering from this devastating tragedy are being lost in this whole "debate."  I'm talking about the press/media, cable news, talk radio.  People are being blamed for something they did not cause.  Then, we feel the need to defend those who are being protrayed as hate mongers.  We believe in the ballot box, not bullets. 

Anonymous

I'm signing off too.  Just wanted to post this.  Great for kids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLP_HGKq-jg

Anonymous

Very confusing, 2tzus. 

konakat

2tzus -- read the pdf that you posted -- towards the end you'll find out the judge's reasoning for decision.  I was going to copy and paste some bits but I'm just too darn lazy at this time of night.

annettek

if any of those duct taped fork wielding canadians show up at my door I am slamming them with brussel sprouts! (disclaimer: my family is from Canada-only my baby brother and I were born in the states:)

Ignore- pshaw- I love a good debate and since I am always right, no worrie:)

konakat

Just don't hurt the broccoli!

annettek

you can have my broccoli when you pull it out my cold, clenched hand!

konakat

I think we are just seeing our cultural differences.  What an American might think is nuts, a Canadian might think is the way to go.  And vice versa.  There are quite a few things we scratch our heads wondering about on both sides.  We're similar in some ways and quite different in others.  That's just how it is.

konakat

Awww, I love broccoli -- I just want to steam it and gobble it down.  Yum. 

annettek

that sums it up so well konakat! Even being born and bred here in the states I am shocked at how ill informed most of my countrymen are about our great neighbor to the north (except Windsor,ON which is actually south of Detroit, MI). I am embarrassed when I have to tell my COLLEGE-EDUCATED employees that there are no states in Canada. They will report on a pharma/bio project in Quebec and put down Montreal Canada as location. I will tell them, no, it is Montreal, Quebec in Canada. What is Quebec? I say it is a province. What is a province? What state is Montreal in? Is it England? A country or part of America? I say, North America. But isn't all of America the US? We own Alaska, they are in the middle. Doesn't that make them ours? Do they have a king?! Aren't they communists? hahahahaha although, actually, that lack of knowledge scares me from our "best and brightest"...sigh, I do my best.

BarbaraA

Alpal, I think Americans have a constitutional right to own and bear arms but I do think that the founding fathers would not have included automatic weapons in that amendment. JMO.

Tupelo, I fear this AZ media outcry may have an effect on free speech. The House is taking up a resolution today to honor the victims and first responders. Finally they are doing something constructive. But I do fear that this tragedy may be the beginning of defining/regulating hate/non main stream speech.

rosemary-b

We in the US do not have the right to slander or libel someone, we do not have the right to publish what is judged to be obscene. We could and do argue over what is obscene but the  old comment about obscenity "I know it when I see it" IMO is how Canadians feel about hate speech. The Canadians can outlaw brussels sprouts (I can imagine the outrage and the protests) if they want and we in the US don't get a say. I think they run their country quite well.

edited: typo

IronJawedBCAngel

In trying to protect free speech, the US is well behind Canada and other industrialized nations in recognizing the harm that hate speech can inflict on their societies.  Perhaps if we had as well defined hate speech laws in this country, the death of Matthew Shephard and others, and the multiple suicides of teens who are deemed "different", would not have occurred.  I applaud students of any university that have the strength of character to reject the hateful speech of the likes of Ann Coulter. In the 12 years I lived in Canada, I never felt that my freedom of speech was restricted in any way in comparison to the US, but then, I am not one to participate in or promote hate speech.

My husband hunts, and I think hunting rifles and pistols are something that any American who meets the screening criteria should be entitled to own.  However, I too question why any individual should have access to, and own, assault rifles and weapons that are intended for the military to inflict multiple casualties.  

Medigal

This freedom of speech topic reminds me of something this male stranger told my DP on a trip a while back.  He was from Europe visiting the US and they were talking about differences of different countries.  The man said very seriously "Your freedom of speech in your country is going to be what is going to end up destroying you by your own laws".  We have never forgotten what he said since it seems our "freedom of speech" has been so abused in our country.  We certainly don't want to not have it but there has to be a way to control people from abusing it.

lassie11

Below is a summary of what is hate speech.

Regarding the holocaust - it really happened. Saying it didn't is not an opinion, it is factually incorrect and intended to harm an entire religious/ethnic group. That's not OK

And the links provided show nothing of a preacher in a church - it shows people who are out in public spewing hate and using their "religion" as a shield.  That's not OK either.

I think it was helpful of the university person to warn Ann Coulter ahead of time so that she did not run afoul of our laws. She still could have spoken but I guess she didn't have much to say that would have fallen within the laws. It was her choice to back out.

Criminal Code of Canada

Sections 318 and 319 of the Criminal Code make it a criminal offence to:

• advocate genocide
• publicly incite hatred
• wilfully promote hatred

against an "identifiable group." 

An identifiable group is defined as any section of the public distinguished by:

• colour
• race
• religion
• ethnic origin
• sexual orientation

The Criminal Code provisions are intended to prohibit the public distribution of hate propaganda. Private speech is not covered by the provisions.

For example, "advocating genocide" includes publicly arguing that members of an identifiable group should be killed. Wilfully promoting hatred can only be committed by communicating statements other than in a private conversation. And inciting hatred is only prohibited if statements are communicated in a public place.

Online communications that advocate genocide or wilfully promote or incite hatred are likely to fall within the provisions because the Internet is a public network.

kadeeb

I have never considered the US to be behind in freedom of speech. I will have to admit that is a foreign and new concept to my understanding of free speech. I always thought that when some dip wad started spouting things that were lame and without merit, free speech meant you ignored him, walked away, changed the channel or hit the "ignore" button. I honestly wonder if this thread might not be considered "hateful" at times. I would not consider it so but the censorship some propose, is not necessary to eliminate the nuts. They eventually fall from the tree and are consumed by the squirrels and turn into the $hi^ from which they came. 

Hate mongers are a victim of evolution. If you doubt, look at the history of the KKK. They came, they prospered and through the freedoms provided by "free speech" their numbers are minute and the organization powerless. They actually talked themselves out of existence. What's the old saying, "Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves". Those types of organizations have no place in any nation, and that "freedom of speech" that some want to refine is exactly why they have run out of steam.  

lassie11

Tupelo - it would depend on what they are saying.