Why is this group for women under 40?
As more and more women have children later in life for whatever reason, I can not understand why on top of being told you have breast cancer you aren't even included in the group talking about these issues. I am 41, 1 year over the line. I have the same concerns as many of the women out here and yet, I feel like I've crossed over some line. I really think this site should be open to all pre-menopausal women who are still interested in having a child rather than some indiscriminate number.
Most of my family died in my late twenties / early thirties. My mother in particular had a long and difficult death from a non-cancerous lung disease. Somewhere around my middle thirties my life became more normal and time did its magic. Finally, I met the most wonderful man albeit I've known if for ten years and he lived in another Ireland! It seemed that despite the tardiness my dreams of starting my own family were very much possible.
When I was I told I had breast cancer, I thought you've got to be kidding me. How much does one person have to go through? I do not know but I know I am very lucky despite being so unlucky. In the end I am Stage 1 with no signs of lymphovascular invasion (14mm IDC ER+/ PR+ HER2- Oncotype 16). After I realized I wasn't going to die any time soon, the realities of having a baby or not soon set in.
Our oncologist has spent more time talking to me about TailorX than anything else. I'd be thrilled if something good was learned from my misfortune, however, I need to be the first priority and I feel I am not. When we met with him again this past Monday, he has now added Zoladex in the mix for 2-3 years and of course Tamoxifen for 5 years. Aside from hot flashes and weight gain, nothing else was mentioned unless I asked. It is so tiring to have to drag such important information out of people that is glossed over at best. I felt the like the pathetic middle aged women that had not time to deal with. After about 10 minutes, He told my husband and I. "You know where I stand, let me know what you want to do.". That was that.
The nurse did try to talk to me, however, her approach immediately put me off as she was discouraging any notion of pregnancy and saying you have to make hard choices in life. Why is it these people always assume they know you? Turning off your mothers ventilator is doozie as well…. No one mentions environmental issues, diet or anything else. Green tea is a nice cup of tea and yet there is probably more research done on green tea than the combination of ablation and tamoxifen. It is disturbing.
I have no fear of trawling medical libraries, the very insightful blogs, and any other information I can get my hands on to try to make an educated decision for myself. Sadly this has left me with nothing but conflicting information, the knowledge that this is a science in-progress and a desire to have a medical degree yesterday. My father died of severe heart attack at the age of 54. Does the increase risk of cardiac disease from early menopause / ovarian ablation negate the decreased risk of breast cancer? It does me no good to beat breast cancer if I drop dead of a heart attack.
I am hoping to find another medical oncologist who might actually work with us but it is tricky as everything is interconnected in Ireland. Fortunately, we are proceeding with the radiotherapy next week and I understand many people start these drugs after that. I did go for a consultation at Dana Farber in Boston and the oncologist was much more amenable to work with me regarding fertility. She recommended ablation with Lupron and then tamoxifen for at least 2 years. Ironically the fertility doctor the fertility doctor did not agree with the ablation. It is maddening. From what I have read, I'm inclined to agree. it seems the clinical trials are first occurring regarding tamoxifen and ablation per the adjuvant web site. I feel I am trying to smash invisible and possibly nonexistent particles in my body with carcinogenic sledge hammers at an extremely high price.
II've spoke to a naturopathic doctor and have many of the supplements recommended on this site and others. He also felt it wise to take tamoxifen for as long as I could which surprised me. It is a lot of tablets and I feel a little weird taking so many drugs but am slowly find a good mix of things for myself that just feels right. A true science. ;-)
I appreciate no one can make this decision for me. I just want to feel like I have enough information to make this decision and then make it. Whatever I choose, I know there can be no second guessing it later, e.g. if I don't take it and I get distant disease or I do take it and I get uterine cancer or never try for a baby. I'd trade the boobs for a baby. It's the metastasis that scares me. Hearing from other people's experiences in relation to my own, if nothing else, will be good for my mental health which at the moment is weary with the knowledge that I am just a little too old for so many things including a blog.
Kindest regards,
Susan
Comments
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Susan, although I haven't been especially chatty on the "young women with bc" forum, I am sure I speak for everyone on it in saying that you are ABSOLUTELY welcome and belong here... so on that note, I will say WELCOME!
I'm confused, though - if you want to have a baby, why are you doing ablation and Tamoxifen? Doesn't ablation destroy your fertility? and obviously you can't get pregnant while you're on Tamoxifen... are you doing fertility-sparing measures like having embryos or eggs frozen?
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Susan,
Your oncologist's job is to protect you from cancer, but only you can decide whether some forms of anti-cancer risks are worth the cost. If pregnancy is important enough to you to refuse some forms of anti-cancer treatment, it is your absolute right, fully informed, to make that call.
I did 6 months of Zoladex during chemo. I refused Tamoxifen because I didn't feel the risk reduction it offered me was suffient to justify long term interference with my hormones and my chances of conceiving. (I am 37) My oncologist respects my decision although I know he thinks I am wrong, but as he said, it is my body, and me who lives with my choices. If yours won't have that conversation with you, maybe you need a different oncologist?
As Julia said, can you do egg or embryo freezing before you start the Zoladex? Zoladex AND Tamoxifen seems overkill for stage 1, but then every person's pathology and prospects are different.
I guess the main thing I want to say to you is - you are not alone in feeling that your oncologist does not understand what really matters to you. There is lots of material available on line (though not all of it is reliable). Do your research. Ask the questions. You don't have to accept your oncologist's advice. it is YOUR body, and your choice what risks to take.
You're in my thoughts.
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Thank you sakura73 and CrunchyPoodleMama for your thoughtful replies.
I have not started Tamoxifen or Zoladex - it is being *strongly* advised. I am taking Indole-3 (will switch to Dim as it sounds a bit safer in long run), Calcium D-Glucarate, Vitamin D, and AHCC. I also have some iodine supplements and drinking 1-2 cups green tea per day. I'm normally active so exercise isn't an issue but definitely have more motivation to not skip days or ate last take a short walk!. We don't have a car here so I have a lot of incidental walking anyhow. I've also been replacing any paraben products as well as plastics with other options.
The Zoladex was something new. The SOFT trial and few others are first occurring to study the combination of Tamoxifon and Zoladex. Per the adjuvant site, the current thinking is there is no empirical data to support this treatment approach in combination. As such, I've already decided Zoladex is not right for me.
I've researching Tamoxifen for weeks and weeks now and originally it was a no for me. Unfortunately, the medical community and one family member are pushing it so hard, some doubts have seeped into my mind. Should i just try it and see and take it for a year or two? 43 is still not out of the question but wash out would be pushing me closer to 44. Not impossible but not also not likely. I like to think of it as I was rather unlikely to get breast cancer at this age, so what the heck. I am odds beater although we have not won the lottery yet. ;-)
At present I am back to leaning towards not taking Tamoxifen and trying to see what my estrogen levels are today and in 3 months. I can't believe people like to throw these drugs at you so casually without even knowing where you are today. I hope to be more steadfast in this decision very soon. I'm reading AntiCancer at the moment and it is helping resolve my faith in my own bodies abilities. :-)
In retrospect much of my posting was frustration that everyone seems to look at me as a piece of cancer instead of a person. The oncologist actually said that to me, we treat the cancer not the person. I knew from the get go we were unlucky with his assignment. In Ireland you are referred and he was chosen for us. They actually send you letters to tell you when your appointment is, you don't make them yourself. The waiting was a proverbial witch. I believe I can switch to another part of the hospital based on insurance coverage but am trying to find out something about that doctor before I do. The system is small here and I don't want to risk irritating them all at me especially if I buck convention. If we are stuck with him I will probably go home (I'm US citizen) periodically for checks there if nothing else….
Thanks for your time and I'd welcome any other input or thoughts. There is loads of information in these blogs but it is hard to wade through and just nice to talk to other people.
All the best,
Susan
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Hi Susan,
Sorry you are having to deal with this crap. No-one is going to kick you out of here because you are 41, we understand the issues are simliar.
I am 42. I was diagnosed at 36. I was Stage 1, 18mm, grade 3, ER+PR- Her2-. I had a mastectomy and four rounds of EC. I then did tamoxifen for 5 years. I already had 4 y.o. twins but wanted another child. My oncologist told me I could take tamoxifen for 2 years and then try to get pregnant again. I know other women with our stats have been told similar things.
I guess in your case the choices are harder because in two years you will be 43. However there are choices and options. If your oncologist is not helping you with your concerns re having a baby maybe you need to get another oncologist. This is important and your doctor needs to "get it".
Best wishes to you Susan.
Sandy
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Dear Susan,
i know exactly what you are going through when i was initally diagnosed they thought i was strongly hormone receipent and told me i would be on hormone supressent until i was 70 as my tumours were large and unpredictable and to forget ever having a baby, after 3 years plus of trying and having had failed fertility treatment this was way harder than the cancer. i cried buckets and hated when people said sure you can always adopt, i also live in ireland and we were too old for domestic as my dh was late 30's and foregin was ruled out with the cancer diagnosis, varies from county to county here in ireland but have to wait for 5 years clear to apply, then takes 4 more years to get a baby. in the end it turned out i was trible negative so i do not have the tamoxifen however the baby issue is still under discussion if i ever get my cycle back after chemo that is.
everyone is welcome here, i hope
?? we are all sharing more or less the same road with different exits and toll bridges, some of us are on the motorways and more going the scenic route, yes our journeys are different but all have been affected by the c word and most of us will get through it. you should read the book "the c word " by c lynch (definetly lynch as a sir name but not sure on the first), her languish is awful, but humourous she was 28 when diganosed and just after two miscarraiges and no children. very good read
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Hi Hope2,
Thank you for the reply and I'm so sorry to hear your story and that adoption is riddled with difficulties as well. I'm really starting to dislike this magical 5 year mark! I know that chemo can flip many women into menopause. I hope that is not the case for you.
Yes I hear you. I've often joked that if I have many more character building experiences, I may be a walking cartoon! I will definitely make a note of the book. At the moment, I am reading "Anticancer" and find it amazingly hopeful and it makes lots of sense to me. I have a lot of faith in our immune systems. :-)
All the very best,
Susan
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You are more than welcome to post in this group. Just to let you know... I think the main reason why discussion websites specifically create a seperate group for young women, it's because there is a lack of support for young women with breast cancer. From my exprience so far anyways...
I am only 28, and for the past 6+ months, I've been trying to get my breast examined by a physician, with no avail... "you're too young for breast cancer! You have ficrocystic breasts, lumpiness is normal etc." I never once had my breast clinically examined! Not even at my yearly pap/physical exams, because "BC is not possible" . I repeatedly got refused mamograms because I was too young! It wasn't until I finaly had my hormonal specialist (because my GP thought I was hormonally imbalanced - which turns out I'm not - but that's besides the point)... Anyways, the hormonal specialist referred me to a breast specialist (6 months later). The breast specialist saw how negleted I was and I to undergo multiple tests ASAP! Ultrasound, mamo, biopsy and MRI all in 1 weekend! It turns out that I do have cancer! 5cm+ IDC.
It really makes me mad that I had to fight sooo hard to get examined! I find that a lot of young women go through the same shid* I did!
Welcome to the "young" group. It's not only about having a family, it's about being ignored and neglected.
I feel sorry for myself everyday! Sorry if I seem snarky! I just can't help myself! No hard feelings I hope!
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Susan, I think you have hit it on the head when you say they treat you as a cancer, not a person. They don't see your life, just your breast. The separate forum is needed because you have to fight so hard even to be taken seriously, and because your treatment needs are so different from a 65year-old.
Actually i confess i'm a gatecrasher here myself, I will be 50 next year but I don't feel "older". I'm not concerned about fertility or lowcut tops but I do get treated different because i'm premenopausal, and because they are looking at 30-year survival not just 10-15year. Scale that up to the extra years you can expect, and you can see why the younger age group needs extra care. I have all the sandwich generation stuff - aging parent, needing to keep at work another 10years, survviving launching a college teenager etc, but at least i'm not worried about seeing preschoolers grow up, or whether i will be able to have any.
NannaBaby I was shocked by your story but I have to admire you - your energy and persistence against all that ignorance is another factor, and is what will see you through! And you're right too, it's not just about having a family - it can be about being family to each other. Your new sister x (I will go back to being pre-middle aged now.
(( Boohoo)
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Hi Nannababy,
Sorry you are dealing with this crap. I was diagnosed at 36 (probably old from your point of view) after fighting for more than 10 months to have my symptoms taken seriously. So even at the grand old age of 36, I had to fight for my diagnosis. I was even told off by the radiographer when she was about to take my films for "having too many mammograms". She shut up pretty quick when she saw the films. A few weeks later they chopped my boob off. That was six years ago.
I sympathise with the people who are diagnosed in their forties, especially early forties as they too are not in the main age group for breast cancer and yet they don't have their "special place". They are not "too young" but they are, if you know what I mean. The average age for diagnosis (in Aust at least) is 64.
I think it is easy to think our own situations are the worst, because that is the situation that we understand the best. Personally at the time I would have preferred to have either got my cancer many years later or five years earlier. I had two four year olds and the I can tell you the nightmares about my babies crying over my coffin were not that much fun. I didn't just have myself to think about but I had two little hearts depending on me. Noone loves your children as much as you do and it is frightening to think that they may lose that special love that only a mother can give. I wished I didn't have children because I didn't want them to suffer.
Sorry if that sound snarky but cancer is not p*ssing contest. It sucks for everyone for a whole variety of reasons. No hard feelings I hope.
I wish you well.
Take care,
Sandy
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Hi,
Women's intuition is amazing and I'm so glad you all had the foresight and courage to make sure you got to the bottom of your lumps. It's just phenomenal not to steal Maya Angelou's words of a similar named poem. :-)
I was told not to worry about my lump, cystic fibrosis. However, here in Ireland they pass everyone along just to make sure. It was a month later that I had the tests. I have to say I also didn't think it was anything so had she not sent me a long I would have been dumb enough to go along with it. Thank goodness for little miracles.
It's not quite the same, I know and I am grateful. It is unacceptable the amount of ignorance that still exists in the medical community. I will have to fight for some things that probably come easier to others, e.g. bone density scan. My oncologist says Tamoxifen is good for my bones and to not worry about it, I was stunned on the pamphlet *they gave* me it says that's true for post-menopausal women but *all* pre-menopausal women should have a bone scan. Sigh.
I agree that this group is not all about having a family. I remember how weird and sad I felt when I was so much younger than everyone on the surgical ward. They all kept asking is the girl ok? It was and is still so surreal. I never see anyone at radiotherapy near my age (or younger) either. It's a good thing, please don't get me wrong, but it is a lonely thing. None of my friends can relate. It is one of those things you can not understand until you go through it and hopefully they never will.
I agree that various ages may have different challenges, however, I really believe that everyone would benefit from this kind of support no matter their age if they are interested. Someone older may have more insight into the very difficult emotions coping with children at home as well as benefit herself giving help when perhaps she did not have it at her time of diagnosis or just because it's nice to help - a big sister if you will. Someone younger may remind of us of little blessings like not fighting for diagnosis. All of our perspectives and experiences can brighten, enrich and help each others lives even if it is in the smallest of ways. Those are the things that mean the most sometimes anyhow I think.
It would be really sad to exclude anyone based on a number as we could be missing out on great advice and also risk some women being isolated into some bizarre grey zone or labeled a gate crasher. There are too many other challenges far more important that are best faced with as much knowledge wherever it comes from.
What would you all think of simply saying "Connect with younger women who have been diagnosed."?
All the best,
Susan
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Susan, I am sorry I don't know more about the fertility issues but I know my oncologist brushed my concerns off. Perhaps because I already had my twin boys. I had other complicating health issues and didn't persue things further once the two years passed. If you don't get the answers you need from your current doctor please seek another opinion. In these early times of diagnosis it is so easy to get caught up in whirlwind. You need to set the pace and make sure ALL of your concerns are being addressed.
I think there is another website with a name along the lines of "fertilehope" where many of the options are discussed.
On the subject of the younger women board. Although I fully understand your frustration I really think you are welcome here, don't be put off. This has cropped up before and 99 per cent will make you feel very welcome. I think your suggestion is quite valid but I just feel you have more on your plate to think about at the moment. Keep on posting and you WILL get the help you need.
Best wishes,
Sandy
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Hello SandyAust,
I was saddened by your reply to my post. For you to say that I think breast cancer is like some kind of contest is EXTREMELY RUDE! We are here for support, not critisism. I was simply sharing my story. I didn't want to make it sound like I have it worse than others. Trust me! I lost my single-mother to cancer when she was 52 and I had to care for her and plan her funeral when I was only 19 because she had no one for support. I still have nightmares that I could have helped her more, but I didn't understand how back then.
My point was similar to that of sunflowerhiker "I remember how weird and sad I felt when I was so much younger than everyone on the surgical ward. They all kept asking is the girl ok? It was and is still so surreal. I never see anyone at radiotherapy near my age (or younger) either. It's a good thing, please don't get me wrong, but it is a lonely thing. None of my friends can relate. It is one of those things you can not understand until you go through it and hopefully they never will."
Please show a little more compassion in your posts.
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NannaBaby I want to show you another side to your story, how brave you were when your mom went through all this. Less than ten years ago, Ouch!! I'm quite sure you couldn't have done any more for you mom. Don't beat yourself up over it, cos I'm sure she must be so proud of you. And you have enough on your own plate right now, she of all people knows that!
I wonder if that's also one reason the doctors delayed your diagnosis for so long or thought it was psychological or something - have they not heard the word hereditary..? Totally no excuse.
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Oh boy! Started chemo today!!! I am crying alot! I can't believe my mom went through this alone with 2 teenagers! And to matters even WORSE! My siblings and I had a house party when my mom was recovering in the hospital from colon surgery!!! I am a messss right now! ... Is it to late to say sorry!?
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This isn't really the best time to waste your energy on regrets - today, work on changing the future! I'm thinking maybe some counsellor could give you an extra help, face to face or phone, that getting more support would be entirely appropriate with all you're facing - if you can't get help when you even have cancer, when can you ask? Count your friends, list them, call on them. I've PM'ed you (click on the purple tab Private Messages at the top of the page.)
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Hi Nannababy,
Yes I think support is very important. I wish you the best. The purpose of my post was to support Susan (Sunflowerhiker). Rightly or wrongly (and it turns out I was right) I thought your post might be less than supportive to her. And as you correctly said that sort of thing has no place on this board. I would also point out that this is not the first time this sort of thing has happened here. The first time I didn't say anything, this time I did.
I am not a malicious person, I care deeply about other people. My concern was for Susan. You admitted yourself that you were being snarky. Think about it from her perspective and the perspective of other people in her circumstance. If you want to demonise me then there is not a lot I can do but my post was motivated by compassion for the people on the receiving end of your post.
I am really very sorry about all you have been through it is very tough. Noone should have to face these burdens and I really hope that very soon they will find a cure. My family has also been marred by tragedy.
SandyAust
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Because some issues they have are diferent, I was 38 when diagnosed,but now my I am 17 years more or less from diagnosis, I am not the same person.
There are also women that are mothers are 50, and this group is not about children specifically.
I still get information mailed to me, and invitations,but I do not have the same issues than at 38," I wish I would have been "discriminated"and not get B.C. Those are harsh words.
There are 17 years old diagnosed, and lets face it, a 40 year old has another concerns, a younger woman has school, classmates, beginning a career, etc to think about; lets respect each other.
By the way I went into instant menopause with chemo.
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Hi,
I'm sorry you had to go through this as well. It's nice to know you are 17 years out. That is wonderful and encouraging news. I hope you never see BC again. At the moment, I look to Nancy Reagan who had breast cancer in the late eighties and is 89 or so now without recurrence I believe.
The point is about the cutoff for the group. Teenagers will certainly have different needs than people in their thirties and vice versa. However, THIS group combines all of these age categories. What happens to the women who are 2 months past their 40th birthday? What about them? Are there needs that different from a 38 year old who is included in the group?
I've had many concerns along the rocky roads of this journey. Infertility is one I am really struggling with. Sadly, I doubt I am alone or maybe I am. It's been really upsetting to me and to make matters worse the logical place to post, I am technically excluded from by six months. A number is a much easier thing to talk about.
The one thing that is ringing true (thank you Sandy) is that my time is better spent elsewhere. The second thing is that this posting is causing more harm than good. I've deleted it.
Regards,
Susan
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Susan, I found that I got the best support from other areas of the board which were based on the kind of treatment i was receiving. I hope you'll stick around the boards and find what you need. I honestly don't feel your being very slightly over 40 would have been a barrier to participating here, but if you feel excluded I respect your view and, as I said, hope you are able to make connections elsewhere on bco.org.
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Best of luck Susan, sunflowerhiker. I am very sorry that this has happened to you and I wish you well. You can PM me anytime with any questions or just for a friendly ear. That actually goes for everyone.
Take care,
Sandy
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I just thought I need to add that it may be correct that this group is "not about children specifically", however concerns about lost fertility are discussed regularly on this board by the young women who are here. Concerns about caring for young (in my case very young) children are also discussed regularly on this board.
I was 36 when I was diagnosed and I met a lot of women in there 20s and 30s on this board. However the woman who first answered my post was 41 or 42 with five children. I still remember her and thank her to this day.
I would also like to point out that Susan was 41 and not 50 or 55 as it seemed to be suggested by another poster. She is also NOT a mother. Her question was about fertility. And there were no "harsh words" in her post.
I honestly believe she would have been welcomed here by the vast majority. She has however driven off to seek support elsewhere. I think that is terribly, terribly sad after all this poor lady has been through.
Thank you to those other kind souls who welcomed her.
Sadly,
Sandy
P.S. Susan if you are reading this, it is not a given that you will go into "instant menopause" with chemo. My periods came back fairly quickly and I still have to this day. Best of luck sweety you deserve it.
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hi! i just wanted to tell you i have read many of your posts. and i am 29, i can totally relate to you. and if you ever want to talk, let me know. it's hard when your not even 30 and you are trying to tell the docs "something is wrong with me, why won't you listen!" luckily, i had a great gyno who did not dismiss me, and i love her till the day i die for that. just letting you know, i'm right here with ya sister! --angel
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btw.. that was for nannababy....
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Thanks
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Susan,
I often think about you and I feel sad you only made nine posts on this board. I know from your PM to me that you felt unwelcome here, but I am sure that wasn't the case. There are a lot of kind ladies on here.
I hope you are doing well and that you found somewhere to get the support you wanted for your fertility concerns.
Take care,
Sandy
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Sandy,
What's up?
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Hi Sandy,
Thanks for the kind note. How are you keeping? I hope you are well.
I have not been out on the site for a long time. Life has been very busy and exciting! I started working again, my husband and I immigrated back to the US last fall, right around the time you sent your note. The entire season is a blur.
I'm doing really well. I really can't complain.
I've been on Tamoxifen for a little over two years and have hit the point where if we are going to try for a baby, then I need to stop. I've been trying to figure out exactly what two years means to me, however, I suspect I won't know as it's not known. :-) I added a post to the tamoxifen forum as the control groups widely vary when I spotted your update!.
My oncologist in Ireland felt that I would increase my risk 1-1.5% by stopping at 2 years. The oncologiest in USA is understanding but is really pushing the 5 years. Unfortunately, she barely looked at my chart and flippantly "halved" the number I mentioned to her. (Originally she had said 14% risk of recurrence so she immediately went to 7 although my oncotype test only ever went to 10% - no one has ever said anything but 10 previously). Anyhow, have been in a bit of quandry about it all. I feel weird to be taking a known carcinogen when I stand around a let my car air out on hot day to avoid carcinogens ... As for baby, well I'll be 44 next month so odds aren't in my favor and it worries me that risks of defects increase as one gets older. My accupuncturist had no concerns about me having a healthy baby but still. And somewhere under the surface are the concerns of gosh would I be a good mom? I'm a bit like a deer in headlights. It's almost easier to hide behind my bottle of tamoxifen... We're also looking into adoption but cancer and age also plays a factor there too.
I actually didn't set out to write all this. I guess it is just there brewing in the corners of my mind ... if anyone has any thoughts on the topic or stopped taking tamoxifen, I'd love to hear.
All the best,
Susan
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Hi Susan! I just saw your post and I am delighted to see you back here.
I was 36 at diagnosis and my onc recommended two years on tamoxifen before taking a break for pregnancy.
I am sure you would be a great mum and I think you should go for it. The fact that you are worrying actually proves you meet the job description. LOL
I think you need to follow your heart and reach for that child you long for.
Beat Wishes
Sandy
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- 285 Who or What Inspires You?
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- 586 Alternative Medicine
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- 775 Diagnosed and Waiting for Test Results
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- 50 Immunotherapy - Before, During, and After
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- 109 Welcome to Breastcancer.org
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