Herbs That May Increase Breast Cancer Recurrence Risk

Member_of_the_Club

There is a lot controversy about phytoestrogens and it comes up frequently.  I wouldn't call the link an urban legend, I just think there are no definitive answers.  What I've been told, and am comfortable with, is that soy in moderation is OK and might be beneficial in that the soy can act as a faux estrogen in the same way tamoxifen does.  However, soy supplements and soy milk are just too much and should be avoided.  I am assuming this advice applies to the other phytoestrogens as swell.  I am a vegetarian and eat tofu, in moderation, so obviously I am comfortable with taking my doctors' advice and including some soy in my diet.  But without anything definitive I think everyone has to make their own call.

Iamstronger

When I asked my onc about the use of Soy, he got on line and showed me this 

 http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/302/22/2437.short?rss=1.  He did go on to say that in moderation it would be okay, but he suggested that I don't go crazy and eat lots of Soy because of this study.

Also, I have heard on this site about the use of Lavender and Tea Tree Oil-they are supposed to act as estrogeneric as well.  I have not asked my onc about these yet. 

V

peggy_j

Thanks for the feedback. I thought soy was a no-no when you're on tamoxifen, cuz the soy jumps on the estrogen receptors, making tamox less effective. Oy! I used to eat a lot of soy before I got this diagnosis. In terms of general health, I heard that less processed soy is better  (i.e. edamame is better than veggie burgers). vmarie, did your onc talk about the other studies? It seems like there are results all over the map (soy good, soy bad, soy unknown) so it's hard to know what to believe. When I met with my MO before, she had said eating soy 2-3 a week is OK, but to avoid high doses, like soy protein powders. Not sure what she'll say when taking tamox--no soy at all? (vmarie, MOC, did your docs quantify moderation?) Any thoughts on other herbs/etc that are contraindicated with tamox?

Iamstronger

Peggy-my doc said Soy in food and not in supplements and just don't go crazy-that was about as defined as his moderation got.   But, for me, I just choose to really limit it.  I wasn't a huge soy person prior to bc, so it hasn't been an issue.  The only thing that I really enjoy is Edamane and MISO soup-I have each of those once or twice a month.

Carola32

Good evening ladies!

Lucy, what are your thoughts about alternative and complementary treatments in general?

I definitely think that one should be careful about ones diet. There are studies (well known, and no, so sorry, I don't have a link to provide- I could find many for you though if you're interested) that says alcohol and bad diet are partially responsible for ER+/PR+ cancer, so I do believe there is a strong connection between getting cancer, avoiding reccurence, staying healthy (without pesticides, toxines, synthetic hormones etc in your body) and what you put in your mouth. Do you really believe this is all mumbo jumbo? Howcome? Do you believe only medication help for, let's say hormone replacement? Plants and some foods are utilised to heighten the bodys estrogen in post menopausal women, as red vine is used to avoid varicosity; of course it is long term, of course it isn't as effective as medication straight away, nor can it replace surgery or laser if you have ignored bad legs half of your life; but it is natural. Think about what happens if you eat poison ivy or the red/white mushroom (sorry, I'm not a native English speaker). 

Westerners, and especially the medical body, are content with medication and are, unfortunantely, not completely ready (maybe too stressed) to look at what other cultures may have to offer in terms of health. I find it very hard to get a grip on what is good and what is not, as there's a lot of contradictory information, but I do research anyhow. I don't see myself as a freak wanting to know which veggie, fruit or plant may be beneficial to my body, to my cancer, although I refuse to get obsessed with it. Moderation is key, as so many on this forum has so intelligently written.

I believe it is ones responsibilty as a human being not to believe everything that is said INCLUDING homeopaths that may not be specialists in all fields, especially the cancer field.  Every woman is unique and so is her cancer, maybe that is also why it is so hard to find an exact cure for everyone? If avoiding the wrong kind of food, supplements and plants can help us, then let us discuss it, don't dismiss it as an urban myth. It is your opinion, of course speak your heart, but can you be more specific please? Especially in a forum and a topic that discusses exactly this. We owe it to ourselves and our children to do research, ask questions and discuss this.

Don't get me wrong, I 'gladly' choose chemo over coffe enema or whatever, but I say no to Neulasta and most certainly Tamoxifen. Not that I condemn women that choose to take it, but I don't feel comfortable with it as I believe in my heart that we can live lives without tampering with hormones. Hormones that sadly also exist synthetically in U.S dairy and meat. 

Some of us try to get information so as to have peace of mind aswell as a good diet. How stupid wouldn't you feel if you drank licorice herb tea three times a day only to find out eventually that it doesn't help your condition, but actually triggers the bad estrogen in your body? That herbs and certain foods CAUSES receptor positive cancer may be too harsh a thing to say (but I believe no one has said it here), but if we can help our condition by getting more information thus knowing exactly what we ingest for the better or for the worse, let us. 

These discussions must take place, as the info ISN'T out there for everyone to see. 

chillipadi

Timothy wrote:

"I thought the traditional tofu (bean curd) and soy milk were unfermented, and older than Budhism?"

Timothy, you are absolutely correct. I am a Chinese Asian, living in very Westernised Singapore. All kinds of soy foods are available here, fresh and raw with no processing (eg.soy milk and tofu, including tofu dessert jelly), as well as fermented (eg. tempe, fermented red tofu, taucheo which is also known as fermented brown soya beans, black bean paste, stinky beancurd etc.). Soy is also found in many processed foods, like what you have in the West.

On a daily basis, many of us like to drink raw, fresh, unprocessed soya milk made from non-GMO soy beans. Basically it's just boiled soy beans, with the milky soy milk put through a sieve to remove the pulp. We also enjoy a soybean pudding-like dessert, also made fresh from raw, non-GMO soy beans. Both the soy milk and pudding / jelly are often consumed for breakfast, as well as during the day. Soy is consumed from childhood.

Cancer rates really started rising here when our diet and lifestyles became more Westernised. As people work crazy, long hours, they find it more convenient to eat processed foods, or food sold at commercial food outlets. The number of people who eat fresh, pure, real and unprocessed foods has shrunk significantly. Hardly anybody cooks at home. Every fast-food chain you can find in the West, you can find here. Our environment is also contaminated by modern living,with all the harmful chemicals which characterise it. Horrors!

We believe that traditional soy foods are perfectly safe. When our diets and lifestyles were more traditional, cancer was rare. The rise in cancer here went in tandem with the adoption of an increasingly Western diet and lifestyle, including being less physically active, and being more sedentary (couch potatoes and people glued to their computers abound).

PIP57 said: "people who wear shoes are most likely to get cancer."

This cracked me up! So fuuny and yet so true. Then I got to thinking - many cheap shoes are made from plastics or other materials produced with harmful chemicals. We all kmow that medicated plasters, creams, lotions, oils, herbs etc applied to our feet have some effect on our health. That's why refexology and spa treatments are so popular. Think about it, when we wear chemical-infused footwear,  what are we absorbing through the skin on our feet for hours on end? And what if we're wearing this kind of harmful footwear daily?

When I was growing up, many of us (children and adults) wore slippers / flip-flops on a daily basis. These were made of natural rubber then. For school and sometimes work, we wore canvas shoes with socks. For social use, we had a range of shoes / sandals made from a variety of materials like fabric, leather, wood, reed/straw, and even plastics. But on a daily basis, we generally wore natural rubber flip-flops. Today, most flip-flops have stylish designs and are made mostly of plastic. Real rubber is rarely used. All the fancy Western shoes brands can be found here. So our exposure to harmful chemicals through our feet has increased greatly.

"Foot" for thought, don't you think? 

Member_of_the_Club

As for alcohol -- it raises the levels of estrogen in your body but this is really an issue for young women, late teens and early 20s.  The sense is that during this period of time breasts become particularly vulnerable to the increases in estrogen and that something about having a first pregnancy "seals" the breasts and is protective against the estrogenic effects of alcohol (and everything else).  This is why having your first pregnancy after the age of 30 is a risk factor for breast cancer, because it delays this protective effect.

 Which is all to say that I do drink wine in moderation and i think at my age its fine, but I have had very clear conversations with my teenage daughter about this.  Drinking when you are young has been linked to breast cancer later in life. 

pixelsupply

The soy discussion is interesting because it is so highly debated. But if you look at most of your breads, condiments and processed foods you will find soy lecithin in most of them. I went on a NO SOY NO WAY! binge and had to look for products that didn't have soy. Even some brands of chocolate sauce had soy lecithin in it! So I went and rid my diet of soy lecithin and soy products as much as I could. When I told my oncologist she simply said to stay away from soy supplements,  that is,  don't add an additional 1000mgs a day to your diet which makes sense. And if you look at the studies about Japanese women and BC or recurrence the main factor is that they eat non processed soy, unlike what we have here in the US. 

So basically I agree with MsBliss...that sounds about right

AnneW

Okay, so poeple say that the phytoestrogens don't CAUSE cancer, but can "feed" (I hate that term) your cancer. And once you've had surgery and your cancer is gone, you can eat all you want.

My question: how do you KNOW FOR SURE that all your cancer is gone after surgery? How do you know that you don't have some tumor cells in your body?

To me, it's naive to think that you've got a clean slate once the cancer is removed.

To me, and this is just opinion, it makes sense to avoid (or use in limited amounts) the potential carcinogens, and keep your body healthy and strong through a multitude of things like an anti-inflammatory type diet, exercise, and avoiding the toxins in the household as best you can.

Rabunhod

Every person makes some cancer cells. The body has natural defenses to find these abnormal cells and destroy them. I think our goal should be to keep our bodies defenses strong, and keep their work to a minimum. People who develop cancer have to be that much more diligent at keeping this balance of discovery and destruction at it's best.

Carola32

I found a most interesting article which gives good information about how our bodies work, and the importance of maintaining a healthy lifestyle, and diet, after treatment. Anne W, I think you're absolutely right. I get so horrified listening to nurses at my clinic, or read the supposedly good diet advice they give us. 'You can eat anything, as long as it makes you feel good', I heard a nurse say day before yesterday. What kind of advice is that? When I started talking to her about healthy diet and lifestyle, she looked at me with big eyes like we didn't speak the same language.

As for alcohol, I am sure it has contributed to many cancers, including my own; I started out very early (at age 15), and have had a questionable lifestyle from time to time. I believe alcohol, an unbalanced diet, very irregular hours and lack of melatonine (hey, I'm a flight attendant who loves to party and make barbecues!!), living under radioactive clouds in the 80's, taking the pill for 10 years etc have all contributed to my poor health.  I don't feel sad about it though, it will just push me to live my life in a better, healthier, more giving way!

http://www.canceractive.com/cancer-active-page-link.aspx?n=1025

cothi76

@Carola30 I agree with you on the things that can contribute to BC. True we all have cancer cells in us and if we can discourage them from the mutation than why not. I also liked to party from my mid 20's - early 30's. Was also on the pill for like 17 years, 10 of them due to being dx with endometroisis. I am a hairstylist exposed heavily to chemicals and ate high amounts of red meat and non-organic, processed foods daily. Even though I had plenty of veggies and fruits, probably full of pesticides. Now going through all this (still in treatment) I've changed my lifestyle. Cleared my house of toxic chemicals. No alcohol, which I don't miss, off the Seasonique pill and about as organic as I can afford. I read labels and do as much as I can to research. If it works than great, either ways I'm sure it helps 

Karina121293

What about flaxseed?? I am very keen on starting Budwig's flaxseed oil / contains phytoestrogen /and cottage cheese after my active treatment, so any experience and input will be much appreciated. Karina

Merilee

I agree with who ever said just because you have had surgery and clear margins it means your cancer is gone. I have had 2 recurrences after 6 surgeries, including a 2x mastectomy, with clear margins, and even 6 doses of CMF chemo  and now  I am on TC chemo to zap out any remaining cells from the last lump. Cancer is a sneaky fucker, don't underestimate the risk of it coming back. Personally, I am not touching anything that does not have 100% proof of safety. Believe me you do not want to experience what I have been through in the last 2 1/2 years. With all there is to eat why chose iffy stuff?

PLJ

Edited

sarahlou1967

PLJ - I agree soy contains the dreaded hormone eostrogen and if you look on packaging in the supermarket every thing has soy in it arghhhhhhhh, such a nightmare, gradually as I am going through chemo I am developing and changing things with my diet not too much cause I don't want to shock my body with all this green stuff LOL, maybe should continue this on a separate post titled 'Food and lifestyle changes you've made since the diagnoses' cause I've a lot more to say on that subject.

agada

Great.  So my vegan lifestyle with an occasional beer may have triggered my cancer?  Perhaps. I stopped the vegan diet and have gone back to an "everyday" diet.  Now I wonder.  Should I be vegan again without soy (how ?).  If I still have cancer cells left would I end up "feeding" the cancer?  Did soy, or something else, trigger a genetic mutation into action.  I don't know if I will ever find this out for sure after reading the articles provided.  Interesting topic.

sarahlou1967

Agada The thing is I did'nt have a vegan lifestyle before cancer but think I should try it now as well what else have I got to loose, as for the soya thing please look into that further I have not fully explained the connection between soya and feeding cancer, it is something to do with eostrogen or an enzyme in the soya that mimicks eostrogen its a very in depth subject alone and needs research individually i think. But yeah I hear you flippin sneaky nightmare cancer no rhyme or reason to it, it just seems to appear outa nowhere no matter how hard you try and live a healthy life. 

I have posted another title detailing what I have been doing in order to fight the beast. 

Carola32

I agree with Susan. I was a vegan when I was younger, and have gone back to an almost completely vegetarian diet (I still drink half a glass of milk a day and eat two eggs a week tops) since my dx, and feel so much better, the difference is wonderful. I had some chicken this weekend which ended up in stomach ache and queezyness.

I choose not to eat soy products, and get my protein, iron and good fat from the same sources as Susan; walnuts, almonds, kidney beans, beluga lentils, quinoa...when I bake cakes I use oat cream instead of crème fraîche for example. Healthier and very tasty! 

Merilee

Ya, I was very healthy before this hit me out of the blue as well. It sucks.

PLJ

I *really* like Dr. Richard Beliveau's research regarding nutraceuticals and cancer, as well as his research on angiogenesis. Very compelling. For me, it makes sense. For you, it may not.

Hugs to you all!

Merilee

Most of the women I have talked to who have breast cancer include chronic stress when the talk about evens leading up to their diagnosis.

Also I read once that here in the US soy seeds are sprayed before they are planted with a compound that makes them resistant to round up which is later sprayed on them to kill weeds. I have noticed that the soy fields here have very little weeds. Kind of creepy to think about. And that may be why research is mixed with the use of soy, don't know for sure but I am trying my best to make sure my stuff is local and organic.