Animal products and cancer? Budwig, W.A. Price etc.

CrunchyPoodleMama

I am on the Budwig/flax oil Yahoo group and recently joined one for the "real food"/traditional food concept based on Weston A. Price and Sally Fallon's writings.

I'm a bit discombobulated by something I tried to post on the Budwig forum that was rejected. Here's what I posted (or tried to post):

> Subject: Sally Fallon's Nourishing Traditions
>
> I recently started reading this book after coming to the realization that my DCIS (early-stage breast cancer), as well as other problems that have plagued me (infertility, depression, weight gain, insomnia, ADD, etc.) are due in large part to a lifetime of eating FAKE FOODS.
>
> Of course, this is the beauty of the Budwig protocol... that it uses fresh, whole REAL foods to correct that damage. Fallon's book is intriguing because it takes that a step further and contends that animal meat and fats (only from grass-fed, organic/humanely/naturally raised animals, NOT factory-farm animals) is important to our health as well.
>
> Now, I'm not going to go hog-wild and start downing gigantic quantities of meat, but I've started incorporating small amounts of grass-fed eggs, beef and poultry to my diet, and it's amazing how much better I'm feeling (I was feeling so great just on BP alone, I didn't think that was possible!)... AND instead of buying organic cottage cheese that isn't from grass-fed cows, I'm now buying raw milk (grass-fed of course) and making my own quark. [there was a bit more but that was the relevant part of the post]

A few minutes later, I got this email from the Budwig moderator:

Hi Julia,

Sally Fallon's recommendations are not for cancer patients. Because you have cancer, her diet will only increase it. Meats, butter and other saturated fats are cancer-producing as well as dangerous for the heart even if the animals are grass-fed. We've had examples of members of our group adding grass-fed high-quality meats to their diet and the cancer returned even though the BP had stopped it.

No anti-cancer or anti-heart disease diet includes the foods that Fallon recommends other than the fruits, veggies, grains, etc. but not meats, butter or eggs of any kind no matter how they were developed.

I don't post information that can kill and has killed our members.

Kind regards,
xxxxx, Moderator

...............

"information that can kill and has killed our members"?? Have I missed studies that prove that butter or eggs from healthy pastured animals unequivocally makes cancer grow?? Her statement sounds extreme -- but if there is conclusive evidence about this, I would like to know about it! (I emailed her to ask that but this was only about 6 hours ago and I haven't heard back.)

baywatcher

Julia-

Have you read "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell?

Isn't Weston A . Price the anti-Dr.Campbell?

Just a thought.

althea

Wow, julia, that reply strikes me as over the top harsh.  I've been keeping that group in mind as a place I might want to subscribe to.  It just took a nosedive to the bottom of my reading list. 

I've read Nourishing Traditions and I really liked it.  Prior to that I had been tinkering with the idea of a vegan diet.  If I ever lived on a farm, I just don't know if I'd have the heart or the stomach to take an animal's life, so who am I to be eating them?  If I became vegan, I wouldn't be eating them, and I like that idea a LOT.  Ultimately, however, I'm most interested in a diet that benefits my health the most.  I had been using a 'superfood' product which has B12 on the list, but then Fallon states we need animal sources of B12 in order to assimilate the nutrient.  Kris Carr, who is vegan, also states that the vegan diet doesn't supply adequate levels of B12.  So that got me thinking, well, if we're meant to be vegan, we should be able to assimilate the B12 from plant sources! 

I'm still going round and round deciding what my food future will be.   I'm finding that moderators' comments very unsettling.  If Fallon's recommendations 'kills' cancer patients, why wouldn't they  be harmful for other people also?  

mathteacher

The Weston A. Price people are awesome. Their speakers are well-informed, scientific and full of life changing information. If you ever get a chance, go to one of their conferences. Also, they look so healthy, rosy cheeked and bright-eyed.

I continue to learn from them.

LJ13-2

Let me get this straight. You're concerned that a proponent of the Budwig diet doesn't have studies showing that animal food sources cause cancer?

I just can't stop shaking my head ....

CrunchyPoodleMama

Thanks, everyone... I agree that reply was pretty harsh and it kinda stung. I actually found another comment on that same forum (I guess a different moderator let it through!):

There are a few instances where Dr. Budwig mentions meat and fish. To protect yourself when you can't get FOCC you can use fresh trout or pike. On page 143 she indicates the recipe can be used with fresh fish. She also indicates that if you eat meat it should not be frozen, but fresh, and I am sure she would say organic and grass fed. She also makes a point on pg 3 that meat should not be eaten at the midday meal. However these are brief mentions, so they are not an often used product.

Hmm, interesting... the Budwig moderator claims that even cheese, eggs, or ANY meat/fish will "kill" a cancer patient, yet Dr. Budwig herself obviously can't have believed that!! Guess it only makes sense to take that moderator's perspective with a grain of salt.

baywatcher, I haven't read the entire book, but I know the general concept. It influenced me to become a raw vegan for a while (1-2 years before I was diagnosed with cancer). I would like to read the entire book now that I disagree with it (LOL). From the many excerpts and articles I've read about it, it seems to imply that the traditional Chinese diet is vegan and that the ideal is 0% animal products -- not even 10% is acceptable.

Well, the Chinese are certainly a lot MORE vegetarian than Americans (at least historically/traditionally), but they were traditionally not vegans -- they did/do consume small amounts of animal products (just not at every meal or as the centerpiece of any meal). I remember reading that Dr. Price was actually disappointed that he didn't find a single society in his many studies around the world that were vegan. One indigenous tribe, for example, seemed to be vegetarian at first glance, but they did consume small game, insects, and animal blood (yuck). 

Althea, like you said, there are certain plant nutrients that just aren't assimilated well apart from some type of animal fat or protein... of course charts that show the amounts of nutrients in various foods don't tell that. And like you said, there are no good plant sources of B12... many vegans look the other way re: their B12 supplement being animal-derived. Plus, certain healthful animal products are SO nutrient-dense... it just seems natural to consume a bit of animal product than try to down vast quantities of spinach to get the same amount (not to mention the nutrients that aren't well absorbed in the absence of all animal products). 

mathteacher, you're so right about the Weston A. Price people looking so healthy. Recently I saw an interview with Jordan Rubin (author of the Maker's Diet which is very similar to the Weston A. Price approach) and a renowned raw vegan. The difference was amazing... Jordan looked so healthy -- good complexion, strong and healthy -- whereas the raw vegan was sallow and sickly-looking. (Not saying all vegans are like that, and there probably are people who thrive on a mostly-vegan diet.)

Although I lean toward the Weston A. Price approach, I'm really somewhat in the middle... I do aim to eat mostly vegetables (and fruit/nuts/seeds), with a small amount of animal products (mainly wild-caught fish, eggs from free-range hens, a tiny amount of dairy in my daily flax seed cottage cheese breakfast, and VERY occasionally, some grass-fed poultry or beef) for the nutrients lacking in plant food. 

CrunchyPoodleMama

Oh yeah -- another reason I will never be a vegan again is because of all the fake foods. For raw vegans it's a lot of "food items" made out of high quantities of nuts and soy lecithin and that sort of thing; for "cooked" vegans it's a ton of soy fake food. Whatever other nutrition decisions I make from this point forward, I am DONE with fake foods. That's one thing Budwig and Weston A. Price/Sally Fallon most certainly would agree on (and I suspect they would agree on more than they disagree).

CrunchyPoodleMama

Sorry, me again... I just found this too (have we talked about CLA here recently?)

Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA): Strongly protective against breast cancer. Found in the butterfat and meat fat of grass-fed ruminant animals. 

I believe that's another important nutrient that is difficult if not impossible to get from a 100% vegan diet. And of course there's CoQ10:

Co-enzyme Q10: Highly protective against cancer. Found only in animal foods. 

Isn't CoQ10 one of the supplements that must be taken with fat for it to be absorbed? Doesn't it seem to make more sense to, instead of having to remember which supplements to take when and which to take with oil or whatnot, to simply get it naturally in a small bit of grass-fed beef which comes complete with its own healthy fat for maximum absorption? The more I found out about all these anti-cancer supplements, the more convinced I am that real food is the way to go!

3monstmama

ummm what a JERK!!! I'm sorry but to write that email and then have the chutzpah to write "kindest regards" at the end????? She wasn't kind, not even in the least.

I have a lot of experience with yahoo groups.  Some of them--even popular ones---are actually founded by people who split from more legit groups on the same topic.  If it were me, I'd go look for another group dealing with the same stuff.

Nan56143

Julia,

This woman is full of crap...plain and simple!! Sorry, but the older I get, the less tolerant I am of uninformed people.

edited ....I meant to say ill-informed

dlb823

"...We've had examples of members of our group adding grass-fed high-quality meats to their diet and the cancer returned even though the BP had stopped it..."

Julia ~  You're smarter than to take that kind of observational conclusion as scientific or meaningful!  This moderator has no purpose other than to rule in or out posts that he/she likes that support his/her unscientific opinions or conclusions.  Not worth your time, IMHO, but nice to see you here and posting again!    Deanna  

CrunchyPoodleMama

Definitely, Deanna! I did some more searching and found the "members" she referred to... it was ONE member who had been stage 4 with mets to multiple organs/systems before cleaning up her diet/lifestyle. I don't know the whole story of this woman (and am curious to read more about her situation), but I agree with you, one single case does not equate to conclusive evidence.

Anonymous

Deanna is right. Whenever somebody says something like, "I know someone who got cancer from that," you know you are dealing with an imbecile. That statement implies the person  who got cancer had no other differences. Given that logic, we could say, we know people who've gotten cancer from everything.

And yep, the Weston A Price people who follow the organic, eggs, meat and dairy are among the most attractive, healthy-looking people you'll ever see. I think it has something to do with the vitamin-rich fats, butter and minerals. They are also big on fermented cod liver oil. I want to try that but I think it's pricey. Anybody tried it?

CrunchyPoodleMama

Yep, Lucy, I have to agree with you and Deanna. It was just weird that, instead of debating me openly, she just didn't even let my post go through... whatever, I'm over it.

I haven't tried fermented cod liver oil but plan to soon! Yes, it's pricy... one reason I haven't tried it yet. But, I'm becoming more and more enamored with the idea of transitioning from supplements to real food (once I get my levels up to where they should be... I don't think I'll be stopping the D3 or iodine anytime soon).

kcshreve

I'm in the middle of determining dietary changes, as well.  I've read The China Study, and am currently finishing the interviews Suzanne Sommers did in her Knockout book.  The next on my list is the Anti-Cancer diet. There are many similarities in all these, with a variation on how much animal protein to allow.  My question is related to Budwig - I'm assuming aside from the FOCC, the diet is primarily vegetarian, right?  I haven't found a clear explanation on this.  I also don't know how one resolves the whole issue of Dr Campbell's research pointing to casein as a primary cancer trigger, and yet Budwig's diet strongly uses cottage cheese, which has plenty of casein.  It seems so confusing!

CrunchyPoodleMama

kcshreve, yes, the Budwig diet is mostly vegetarian and yes, it does call for several tablespoons a day of cottage cheese, yogurt cheese, or quark (a type of soft cheese), and I don't fully know the answer to that. I do know that casein breaks down in cultured dairy products so maybe that's why a cultured dairy item is allowed but straight milk isn't. ("In yogurt and in the natural cheeses, the casein is denatured into a two-dimensional structure which would be less likely to cause allergic reactions.") The structure of the cottage cheese/quark also changes when blended with the flax oil, I believe... it's been a while since I read all the details about it.

Also, as you'll read in Anti-Cancer, it's VERY important that any dairy (or eggs etc.) consumed should be from pastured animals... NOT factory-farmed. Big big difference in their nutritional makeup.

CrunchyPoodleMama

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That narrow-minded #!@#!!#! of a moderator banned ANOTHER one of my posts about this!!!

I posted this:

Sandra, thank you for sharing Tina's story. You had mentioned a while back members who had been killed by eating grass-fed beef and I had asked for specifics but didn't hear back from you... I appreciate your sharing Tina's case here. Definitely eye-opening.

I will say, though, there seems to be a bit of "theory-mixing" on some posts of this forum. This forum is specifically based on the work and recommendations of Dr. Budwig, correct? I see a lot of "facts" thrown out that seem to be based on The China Study, the acid-alkaline theory, etc., none of which was affiliated with Dr. Budwig's work.

This can be dangerous... for instance, sauerkraut is considered highly acidifying in the body. But I don't think any of us here would claim it should be avoided because of that.

I bring that up because someone said eggs are acidifying. First of all, as I just pointed out, that is irrelevant to a Budwig discussion. Second, I have seen eggs on both the alkalizing AND acidifying list (depending on whose of many versions floating around you believe) as well as in their own "unknown" category. This is likely because nasty "organic cage-free" (but still factory-farmed, never-see-daylight-or-a-blade-of-grass) eggs are acidifying and terrible for you, whereas truly organic eggs from hens who are free to eat grass and bugs and who get plenty of sunshine every day are the alkalizing kind.

However, the gold standard must be what Dr. Budwig herself said. I own two books by Dr. Budwig, and neither of them says animal products must be limited to ONLY quark. In fact, in her book The Oil-Protein Diet, in a section called "Forbidden for the Unwell," she specifically advises against sausages and processed meats, CANNED fish, poultry and game with ADDED PRESERVING AGENTS, or eggs prepared WITH BACON OR LARD. She does not specifically say NO meat, fish or eggs... and this is the advice directed to "the unwell" (which I assume includes cancer patients), not the general healthy population.

All that is to say, be careful not to let your bias based on non-Budwig theories shape what you believe about the BP. If your belief system is based more on The China Study than the BP, then perhaps you might want to seek out a China Study forum. As for me, I know the BP works and it's what I prefer to discuss, even if it allows for things that don't "SEEM" like they fit with certain personal biases/presuppositions.

Incidentally... I think we can all agree (based on BP and everything else!) that sugar and white rice are to be avoided ALWAYS... to me, that means not even an occasional cheat in a restaurant. However, in line with the Budwig protocol as I have read it in her books, the choice of whether to eat eggs from pasture-raised hens is a personal one, not one that Dr. Budwig specifically forbade.

--- In FlaxSeedOil2@yahoogroups.com, "sandra_olson_09" wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Peter and Linda are giving you good advice regarding limiting animal proteins. Your reference to Dr. Budwig's statement in her book, Cancer - the Problem and the Solution, is on page 29. However, you need to read it again because you are missing a key part of it. Dr.
> B is giving advice for people who *don't* have cancer when she says, "I reject all meats that are in stores. Fresh meat is OK." This advice is for those who do *not* have cancer, it is only appropriate for healthy people. You're making assumptions that are not indicated.
>
> Dr. B's guide for people who are ill is in the back of the same book and it does *not* include ANY animal protein other than that in cheese and milk. Her other book with the guidelines for the unwell,
> her Oil-Protein Diet Cookbook does not include meats in it's guidelines or recipes. Also, in our files, we have her guidelines that
> she gave to a patient who sent them to a member of this group after he
> met with her in the year 2000. Again, no meats or animal proteins other than cheese and milk are included. And, finally, JB wrote an article about her healing plan, which also is in our files. She said to avoid meats. This information is not just for the first four weeks,
> it's for at least 3 to 5 years according to JB's further comments. She says that you can never leave the diet, but that after 3 to 5 years, you could relax a little but her book includes a warning about
> including meats and sweets causing death for cancer patients. [p. 113]
>
> We had a member who overcame cancer by following JB's plan. Testing showed her to be cancer free even though she had breast cancer with mets to her bones just three months before. She and her husband raised grass-fed, all natural beef. It couldn't have been fresher or more natural. She began eating a little every so often, and eventually she was eating some every day. As Dr. Budwig warned, the cancer came back, this time to her brain and she died a slow agonizing death, first losing control of her armes and then going blind. She was only in her 40's and had young children and a devoted husband. She died because she wanted to eat beef. You can look up her
> story in our message archives by typing in "Tina Sandra."
>
> As Peter explained below, anti-cancer diets do not include animal proteins beyond a certain level. What is allowed by JB in the use of cheese and milk is about as high as one can go and still be safe.
>
> Kind regards,
> Sandra
>
> Peter Tibbs wrote:
> > Without getting into JB'S meat thoughts, everything else I read suggests avoiding animal proteins. Particularly 'The China Study' which suggests that they should be kept to a maximum of 5% of calorific intake (ie, JB diet = 5%, so no more). All of my other cancer diet reference books say avoid all red meats and most say avoid animal proteins altogether. Peter
> >
>
> > From: Mike (Home)
> > Sent: Sun, 18 April, 2010
> > Hello - I find the advice on animal protein troubling and do not know what it is based on. In at least one of her books Budwig says she rejects meat that is in stores but that fresh meat is ok. Given that this is a translation I am making the assumption that she means naturally reared and fed meat, i.e. grass fed and free of antibiotics etc, or even better wild game. In the modern world it is not the meat per se that is bad but the way it is farmed.
> > Hunter gatherer societies that feed on high levels of wild animal protein and fat, plus fruit, vegetables, nuts and seeds and have not had their diets corrupted by so called civilisation, do not have cancer.
> > From what I have read in the Budwig books, animal fats are forbidden for the first 4 weeks and meat products are to be completely avoided (p9 The Oil Protein Diet). On page 3 she mentions that the midday meal should not include any meat. This is not mentioned for other meals. My interpretation of this is that after 4 weeks on the diet some meat / fish would be allowed. I would however be very selective in what I would consume. I would look for organic free range meat at the very least and if eating fish it must be wild and not farmed. The advice on meat I find is somewhat vague in the Budwig texts.
> > I would welcome responses from the Budwig experts (Sandra?) to see if I am misinterpreting what Budwig said and also where other recommendations are coming from. I have seen a figure of 5% of calories in animal protein as a max mentioned as well. Is this from the China Study? Thanks, Mike
> >
> > From: linda bastida
> > Hi Greg,
> > I am not a doctor, but any type of animal protein must be avoided. This includes eggs, even if they are organic. Animal protein is acidic, even if it is organic. As for the white rice, imagine eating 5 candy bars. This pretty much what you are doing when you eat white rice, white bread, white potatoes or white anything.
> >
>

And this is what she just replied:   

Hi Julia,

I decided not to post your message below because your statements are based on
a lack of understanding about Dr. Budwig's healing plan and, as a result, are misleading
to others.

Dr. Budwig wrote out her plan in four different places that we have available: 1] The front pages & the recipes in her Oil-Protein Diet Cookbook, 2] The last pages of Cancer -the Problem and the Solution, 3] An article for a German Nutrition Journal - we have it in our Files, and 4] A letter of instructions to a patient - it is also in our files. Never once does she include eggs in her plan. Not once.

As I wrote below in the post you responded to, no animal products other than cheese and milk are included in the Budwig diet.

Eggs contain saturated animal fats, which Dr. Budwig wrote should be avoided. The
science behind her plan is in two of her books and the article she wrote. I've been
studying everything Budwig for five years every single day and have communicated
by phone and email with JB's nephew, a doctor in Germany. He said that my article
and website contain the best instructions on his aunt's work that he has seen anywhere.
Eggs are not in the Budwig healing plan.

Your comments about "The China Study" and alkaline/acid balance are a little
insensitive to those who have written about these topics. The China Study supports
the Budwig plan. You can read more about the details in our Files - the folder of
Frequently Asked Questions.

Regarding alkaline-acid balance, Dr. Budwig mentioned it in an article. Her diet is
well balanced the way it should be between the two.

Kind regards,

--------------------------------------------------

*banging head against wall* Can't she at least let my post go through and then she can reply and say that to me publicly? Why the censorship?? I'm so frustrated at that FlaxOil2 forum and am so glad that there's no censorship HERE unless there's outright spam, cruelty, misinformation or some other VERY good reason to reject a post!!

althea

Julia, do you suppose it's possible that budwig changed her position on some things in the course of her career?  I'm thinking of an example from Dr Brownstein in relation to iodine.  There's a 1991 interview that is frequently quoted where he says people with hashimoto's disease should avoid iodine, and upon further research he changed his position on that matter.  ...but then, if that were the case with dr budwig, you'd think the moderator would just say so. 

Julia, you've already seen this woman's true colors in a previous encounter.  You seem surprised when you receive more of the same.  I'm just curious if you thought things would be different this time.  I am presuming the mod is well versed in budwig's writing.  She seems dedicated to keeping budwig's message alive.  What do you suppose would motivate her to say budwig says no eggs if that wasn't the final conclusion?  

It sure does get tiresome, though, doesn't it -- this quest for making the best food choices.  I just got a copy of Jane Plant's book Your Life in Your Hands (5-time survivor of bc).  Just glancing through quickly, it looks like she opts for no dairy in any way shape or form but says soy is ok.  I just hope when I die and go to heaven that I'll find out the true answer to every question I have because it just doesn't seem like I'll ever figure it out in this lifetime.