Doctor/patient friendship possible? Boundaries?

Raili

So I've been thinking about this a lot lately.  Is it possible to actually become friends with a doctor/member of your treatment team?  (Onc, Radiologist, Surgeon, Nurse, etc?)  How do you figure out exactly what the boundaries are, and the difference between "friend" and "friendly"?  (How) Is it possible for doctors & patients to be friends without the patient's care being compromised?  Any success stories??

I'm hesitant to go into details, but basically, my BS and I have exceptional rapport and have become really friendly with one another, to the point where all of my friends are telling me - "You should totally ask her out for coffee!"  But it's not that SIMPLE!  I just ended the surgical phase of treatment and have "fortunately" healed so well that I don't "have" to see her for 6 months, but I already miss her.  I worry that subconsciously, I'm hoping for surgical complications/a reason to need more surgery, just so I have a reason to go see her again, and that's pretty horrible.  It would be much better if we could just go out for coffee and keep talking and laughing THAT way.  She joked before my lumpectomy, "You're so funny!  I wish you could be conscious with me during surgery!", and then, surprise, I had dirty margins and needed a reexcision, and then ANOTHER reexcision...I was indeed conscious for those and surgery was way too FUN!  She joked at one point, "Don't tempt me to keep operating on you just because I enjoy it!  Because I will!!"  This is not right!  I SO want to keep chatting & laughing, but without the surgery part!  Trade that scalpel in for a latte!

She was sad that I was sad to be leaving her, and hugged me and said, "I'm not going anywhere..I'll see you in 6 months, or you can come see me sooner if you want... and keep emailing me!!"  All of that is both wonderfully encouraging and frustratingly VAGUE.

IS there a way for me to ask her out for coffee without making a big mess of things?  This is a tricky topic to start a thread about, because while I could re-count many more interactions of ours in order to show that we clearly get along well and would've been instant friends had we met under different circumstances, me detailing our interactions on a public message board would in itself be a boundary violation that would be counterproductive to my attempt at/hope of ever being friends.  If that makes sense.

zap

Your BS is as human as you are and seeks out relationships, just as you do. Her job is really hard.  It sounds like you are a success story for her, while so many are not.

 My oncologist and I talked about a book we both loved and our children.  I never would ask him to to coffee, but we had a friendship in the middle of the storm. I valued that aspect of our relationship.  He was human to me and not just a cancer doctor.

 I would say if you want to meet for coffee, ask her via an e-mail.  If she is comfortable, she will and if she is not, she will find some excuse that you will understand to mean that she is not comfortable.  E-mail is so great in that she can just decline without making a big deal out of it.

It will be fine.

gfbaker

I think zap has a good idea about emailing your BS. I wouldn't try to engage friendship in the middle of a course of treatment, but it sounds like your business relationship is over. It is always nice to find people you really connect with.

mke

Many would say no, it is not possible - including many medical governing bodies.  This is an ethical landmine and I think your BS is pushing friendly into the danger area.

run4urlife

All of my doctors are very friendly towards me. They joke, will mention things about their lives. If you stick with the same doctors over time you get to know them a bit. All of mine are very nice people that I think I would hit it off with in most any setting. However, I have no real desire to befriend them. I like them as my doctor. I think at times when you are very ill and scared, they are a bit of a life line for a bit and play an important role. This diminishes as things resolve. That said,l she DID tell you that you could keep emailing her. I don't see what's wrong with shooting a quick email and mention coffee. She must be busy and working hard, maybe she can use another friend too. You never know. Doctors are no different from anyone else.

lexislove

I, myself wouldn't befriend any of my docs...thats just me. When I see my onc or the nurses we crack jokes and talk about upcoming vacations ect....but our time together stays at the hospital/office.

It's a professional relationship. They are my care givers, there duty to me, is to treat my disease. Im happy with that.

But then again...Im a person that cringes at the idea of hanging out with co workers out of work hours too...lol.

Interesting topic, I look forward to the responses.

run4urlife

I just remembered that a family member actually dated one of her surgeons. I guess if that's okay a cup of coffee has to be okay. It's really more of your Dr. letting you know if she wants to be friends too. I would make any invitation very casual and light and like the above poster stated try to do it a way that does not put her on the spot.

Mouser

Hi Raili--

We thought the world of our pediatrician, and eventually invited him to a party (while he was still taking care of our kids). He thanked us, but said he preferred not to socialize with patients.

The point being -- no harm in asking. Your BS can say no if she has a policy aganst it (prefers not to). Just remember that it's not a rejection of you the person *or* you the patient if she says no thanks -- it's just her decision of how she sees the doctor/patient relationship.

We had no trouble continuing with our pediatrician, and he didn't  change in any way toward us. It's probably a little more personal with your own surgeon than with the kids' doctor, though, so you do want to be clear in your own mind what it will mean if she says she prefers not to socialize.

barbe1958

It's pretty common to fall for your doc because they are in a position of "saving your life". I LOVED my gynocologist when I was having babies and then afterwards thought WTH???? (I also "fell" for my lawyer when I had a court case...ehhehehhe - white knights...sigh!)

That being said, you have made a great connection. I agree about the coffee email. If she balks at meeting outside of a work environment then you know she truly just enjoyed you as a patient. It is a fine line she walks as your doctor - legally. If you do hook-up emotionally you'd probably have to change docs. I would do that for a good relationship, wouldn't you?

barbe1958

Oh, meant to add - you had a post like this months ago, so obviously the feelings are still there. Maybe it IS the time to push those boundaries to see if she lets you in. She may be terrified of approaching you because of the doc/patient laws, so really it would have to be you taking the risk.

Raili

Thanks, everyone!  Even more to think about!

(Just to be clear... I would definitely not pursue anything BEYOND friendship, if I even decided to try for a friendship at all!  That's a boundary I won't even attempt to cross.)

Brendatrue

Raili--I think there is an inherent power differential in the doctor/client relationship, and it takes two very savvy, insightful people to negotiate that territory and develop a healthy friendship or other relationship. Having witnessed others in similar situations, I am wondering if you have asked yourself what needs having a closer relationship with this person would meet for you? Sometimes that information can be vital to understanding whether to pursue something beyond the helping relationship itself. And, if you were to develop a friendhip with her,  would you both be capable of continuing your professional relationship in the way that is most helpful to you, which is a priority since your medical care is the reason that she came into your life?

I don't think boundaries should always be rigid, and I think we humans can negotiate some interesting ways of dealing with professional and personal boundary "issues"; but boundaries are important and serve in part as a way of protecting us when we might be vulnerable. I hope you work this out in the way that is best for you!

ElaineD

Like Barbe, I too remember you posting about this-but a few months ago, you were saying how attracted you were to her. Now you are saying that you are not, and that you would never cross that boundary. It sounds as if you are so desperate to have a relationship with this person, that you would take whatever you can persuade her to give. I think you should back right off-before you get hurt.. I don't know how different guidelines are with you-but here this is a boundary that shouldn't be crossed. I too have had some great docs in my life, and with two in particular, knew we could have been firm friends under other circumstances. "In other circumstances" being the operative words. Some very wise words from Brenda, which I hope you will read, assimilate-and then look elsewhere for a friend.

Bren-2007

Hi Raili .. I was reading this too and remembering your other post about this doctor. 

If you were to have coffee with this doc, could you keep it on a friendship level if that is all she had to offer you? 

The other gals have been talking about their doctors on this thread, but in different circumstances.  I had a crush on a male doctor a long time ago .. and a female too, and my divorce lawyer, and an old boss.  I was placing a huge amount of trust with them.  It was natural to feel such a connection. 

Do you know if your doctor is hetero or gay?  Cause in your last thread you said you had a crush on her and now you want to be friends with her.  She "appears" to be sending some signals your way. 

One thing I've noticed about some people is that their boundaries are not clearly defined.  They laugh and joke and make you feel so special, but that is how they treat everyone.  I had a friend like that once.  Just when you think she's your best friend, you find out you're one best friend of ten!  Those kind of people are hard to read and confusing to be around, men or women.

dreaming

I am in close contact with my patients at the cancer center, but only at work,  it is not fair for the staff, other patients to became attached in a personal way,if I see this is going on, I request to be replaced.

It is not healthy for nobody to be "friends"with your medical team,there are boundaries and they can not be crossed,we have to have a professional distance to serve patients better.

We have patients that almost become stalkers because they became very needy.

I  was not a patient at my cancer center, I went to another hospital,to be sure that there was no personal feelings involved in my treatments and care.

Get your doctor a nice card, that would be appreciated; a doctor that dates his patients clearly do not have ethics and should be reported, some patients are fragile emotionally and this is to take advantage .

jenn3

There are boundries that shouldn't be crossed and this is one of them.  If indeed that boundry does get crossed, she could no longer be your doctor and then there is the ethical side.  Having BC is an emotional roller coaster.  Could it be possible that you're attracted and want her friendship because you feel like she understands you......has been there for you........listened to you.....etc?  If that's that's the case everything I just said is what doctors are there to do and you really need to step back and think about it. 

I've joked and gotten along really well with doctors in my lifetime and there are times when you feel like they are the only ones that understand you.  But in reality they are listening to you because they need to know what is going on in your life and know what kind of person you are in order to help you, both medically and mentally.  Doctors and their nurses can get a better picture of a person by just listening and talking to them.

Send a nice card telling her thank you and leave it at that. Give yourself time to "heal" after all that you've been through.

Raili

Okay, speaking of boundaries, can we set some for this thread?

I started this thread to discuss the possibility of doctor/patient friendships.  I would not attempt to date my surgeon.  I have not come on to her.  She has not come on to me.  I also am not going to post any information, theory or fact, about her sexual orientation.

I'm not sure if I feel comfortable even continuing this thread...

Bren-2007

Raili .. you brought it up.  When you first posted about your doctor, I remember reading that you had a crush on her.  And I responded that I thought it was normal to respond to some of our doctors this way. 

I apologize for my inappropriate comments on this thread.  I truly am sorry.

Here is an example of patient/doctor boundaries.  I had a therapist a long time ago who was about my age.  We were close, we cried together and she helped me through some very hard things.  I sent her an Xmas card this year and told her I would be on the west coast in a month or two and wanted to get together and get caught up.  She sent me a note saying she would love to get together.  So .. she'll as about my life, and I'll ask about hers.  We couldn't meet as friends/peers if I was still in therapy.

ElaineD

Perhaps you protest too much? This isn't the first time you have spoken about this person-you clearly want as much as possible from her, even if it does mean crossing the boundaries. You know that you shouldn't do this, but you are determined to find a way to do it which is acceptable in your head. Have you considered that this girl treats all her patients in a  simailar way?Part of her job is to put patients at their ease-and goodness, what a change to hear about a doc with a good manner. How often do we read about people rushing off for another opinion because they have taken exception to something their doc has said-so hearing about one who is witty and amusing, is a pleasant change. But I suspect you are reading way too much into it-yes, under other circumstances you could have been friends. But if you have any respect for her, then you should really back off and let her get on with what she does well-treating people, and putting them at their ease while she does so.

I still find it very disturbing that you were extremely attracted with her a few months ago, and now claim you don't want to date her.....I find this hard to believe-it's as if you are clutching at straws to stay in contact, with the hope that eventually she will get involved in a relationship with you. But at what cost to her career? If you really cared for her, you should maybe think about leaving her well alone, before the situation gets out of control. Relationship or friendship with doc-nope, it's not fair on the doc.

Anonymous

Raili, as I understand it, at this point, you have completed your surgical treatment. 

If you and your surgeon share common interests, it would not be inappropriate to let her know about upcoming events you are aware of that she might enjoy whether you will be participating or not.  If you find yourselves building a friendship on the same kind of professional level that you would share with co-workers who share interests outside of work, that shouldn't be an issue.  Inviting her for a get together and a gabfest with just the two of you might be a bit much though. 

Before you make any moves in the friendship direction, are you ready and willing to seek treatment from a different surgeon should you have issues in the future?  If not, then keep her as your surgeon, and forget about expanding the relationship.

run4urlife

Raili, Keep in mind that you have been through quite a bit in a brief period of time. You had a cancer diagnosis and 3 srugeries! I can only imagine what that can do to someone and how vulnerable that could make you feel at times. A competent surgeon who understands what is going on with you must seem like such a blessing in a storm. One who is witty as well makes it even better. For your sake you may want to think about giving yourself a few weeks to sort out your feelings now that you don't need to see the surgeon on a regular basis. Ask yourself what it would be like to have to go find another surgeon and give up the one you have such a great rapport with who seems to have done such a wonderful job for you should you have another issue that needs tending to. Be fair to yourself here. Give yourself time before you do anything. You deserve that. Wait until you have our land legs back and feel like you have some semblance of your old life back before doing anything. Sorry you have gone through all you have gone through, but take care of yourself on this one! Sometimes people are not who they seem when we are in crisis or having a hard time. They may be great at that moment, but we don't really know them. Just sayin'. God Bless. Take care of yourself. Focus on getting better right now.

Raili

Thank you, PatMom, and Madalyn, for your insights!  I'm not sure yet if I will attempt a friendship in any way, or not - I think the first step is to wait a little longer while I think about it more.  It's only been less than a week since I saw her, so I suspect time and distance will give me more perspective and clarity.  No need to rush into any decisions - there have been a lot of thoughtfully-posed questions in this thread for me to ponder for a while. 

Elaine, I feel like you are making harsh assumptions and judgments about me based on limited information, and I cannot give more information about me/her/the situation without invading both her privacy and mine.  You seem to have already decided that I am Desperate Crazy Stalker Lady, to the point where I'm not sure what I could say in response without automatically sounding defensive.  I have never said, in any post, that I would attempt to date her. Even when I posted about being attracted to her, it was with heavy disclaimers that I did not expect my feelings to lead to a romantic relationship, and that I would not attempt such a thing, and that she did not have romantic feelings for me in return, etc., etc.  Whether you believe me or not isn't really my concern right now.

Edited to say: Thanks, Run!!  I was writing my post at the same time you were posting - and basically saying the same thing.   THanks for your words of wisdom!

run4urlife

Just to add one more thing. I haven't see many if any posts on this board referring having much fun while dealing with surgery. I suspect it was a great diversion from dealing with the serious nature of your illness to have a funny, pleasant surgeon. That may be a factor in wanting more a relationship with this surgeon. What you experienced may not be "real" in the real world. I don't know if that is coming across right. What you experience with the surgeon may not really transfer over in another context? It may be distracting you from facing your cancer head on? I don't know. Just throwing that out there.

Raili

Run, you mean, "What happens in the OR, stays in the OR"??   

I do know what you mean.  It's like when you meet someone on vacation and really hit it off and exchange contact info, but then once you're back home and back to mundane life, you never really keep in touch with them... At least, that has happened to me.  And I'm by no means trying to say cancer treatment is like a vacation!!!  But it is a diversion from regular, everyday life.  And yes, regardless of what happens now with my surgeon, I am grateful to her for bringing such joy & laughter into an otherwise difficult, scary time in my life.

Anonymous

Oh Man, sticky wicket. Doctors have no boundaries nor do they know how to set boudaries. I worked in hospital for many years. Good surgeons are narscissistic (that is why they are so good-cannot afford to make a mistake). She probably thinks you are flattering her skills-for real. It is really easy for me to get caught up in what looks like a caring relationship at a time of crisis and very easy for me to sexualize my doctors in my head. I have found that outside of surgery, surgeons have very few social skills or have the skills that make for great relations and even if you both were to cross that boundary, usually State and Federal law prevents such a breach on her part. She could lose her license in many states. Please take care of yourself and do not read more into this than there is. i alwyas need a hero and am always looking to interpret the interest of a doctor as something else-hell, we'd all rather be doing that than dealing with cancer. Just a suggestion, find another hobby. Sorry to be so blunt, but you might want to listen to the women who have been there and done that. (((HUGS DEAR ONE))) SV

run4urlife

Okay Raili...you ARE funny!! I can see how you and your doc had some good laughs. But yeah..that's kinda what I am saying. That and it's certainly more fun to joke around and check out a hot doc than think about cancer!! Totally understandable. Had you had your one surgery you may have that and been done with it. But to then have to go and have 2 more surgeries that prolonged the relationship...the train kinda kept going there? Huh? Give yourself time..do what you need to do to get better...go have fun with friends. Do things to feel good about yourself. I imagine it was nice for the doctor to have a laughing patient too..can you imagine all the pain and heartache she must see every day? You may have been each other's respite for a bit.

bcincolorado

Well for what it is worth, I know when we lived in Oklahoma and my husband was in the military, we had to start a "family practice" with military doctors for everything.  The problem was, our doctor sat behind us in church and I taught his daughter in Sunday School.  I just could not see him for a GYN appointment under ANY circumstance!  I had a hard time explaining this.  So I think there are lines you just can't cross.  I think the world of my BS and PS and Onco, but would feel strange out in public seeing them since they've seen me naked!