20 plus surgical clips left..does anyone have this?
Does anyone that has had a double mastectomy and removal of lymph nodes have surgical clips ( I have over 20 left in me under my arm) never to be removed? (I had an xray for other reasons in December and all the clips showed in it) I have had for the last 2 1/2 years major Post Mastectomy Pain Syndrome and just found out that these surgical clips have been left in me. I just got all my doctors/hospital records and in one of my CT scans the reading radiologist notes it in the scan that there are muptile clips shown under the arm and one clip that is over the heart. Does this sound right? I will be meeting with my surgeon that performed the mastectomy on Tuesday and really want to know when I ask him about it if this is a common.
My pain is exactly thru the line where these clips are and have been for over the years. Reading my records all the Docs record my pain and all the pain mgmt I have gone thru but no one ever said that I had these clips in my body.
Just wonder what could have happened since I did go to one of the top 20 in the country. And also maybe what questions I should present to the surgeon.
Thanks to anyone that can help out.
Comments
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That doesn't even make any sense! The only time I have heard of a clip being left in is to mark a place that a biopsy has been done. Probably wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion either. Wishing you peace and health. Tami
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thank you Idaho..I know that it seems insane but the xray that I have is not on a cd but the actual negative that was done at a local rural hospital this past december when I had some abdominal issues and they took a shot of the chest. I just looked at it and could not believe what I saw and that I have had MAJOR pain in that area since my mastectomy. I cannot believe this is happening but I will see what the surgeon says on tuesday. will post what he says...thank you for your thoughts.
Kate
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Different situation: I had two cancerous areas in the same breast - multicentric disease. Normally the standard of care is mastectomy, but I fought against it. I ended up having a double lumpectomy combined with a reduction and lift (and a reduction/lift to match on the healthy side).
The radiation oncologist said she wouldn't treat me b/c after the smushing around of the tissue in the reduction/lift procedure, she wouldn't know where the involved areas had been. So, as a solution, my surgeon planned to leave clips in as markers for the rads people.
It's only been a few days since surgery, so I can't comment on long-term pain.
I'm not sure why they'd do that for a mastectomy, but hopefully there's a good reason.
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are you talking about "staples" which are used in surgery and not the clips used to mark areas of biopsy?
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I have an armpit full of tiny clips too. I believe that when they do an axillary dissection some surgeons use the clips to control internal bleeding. I have not had any pain that I felt was related to them, they are very tiny.
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I just got back from a meeting with my surgeon and they are titaniam clips Revkat when you say tiny mine are close to 1/3 inch to 1/2 inch each and more than twently. He did say that they are used to contrl internal bleeding. I suppose my concern is that I never knew thery were in there and it is exactly where I have had the PMPS since 07. My doctors are well aware of the pain over the years and just today when I met with him did he acknowledge after seeing my xray that yes it is normal and could cause some irratation. I cannot believe I have 20+ clips jumbled under my arm and that it would not cause pain. I am a very small framed person with very little body fat which is another reason that I have no padding from outside.j
I would think that the patient should be made aware of this right after the surgery or even before. These surgical clips look like this
I I I ------ BUT 3X THAT Size WITH A TOP ON THE CLIP
This is where I also have major interior itching as well.
Would anyone else that is having PMPS let me know if you are aware of clumps of clips under your arm where the axillary dissection was done and how many clips were used?
starwatcher I thought the same as what you said about the clips being left for markers but today my surgeon said that the are their for internal bleeding.
I am more confused than ever and thought that today meeting with him would straigten things out but I think he was taking it personally and got out of the room asap. ( They did not even take my blood pressure, temp or pulse.)
thanks to all
Kate
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I, too, found out I have surgical clips in my armpits (identified in a CT scan). I had a bilateral mastectomy this past December and my armpits feel like I have been using crutches - that achy soreness. And I only had 3 nodes removed on one side (none positive) and no nodes on the other side. I can't understand why clips would be left in, and I really hope it is not from laziness. I see my surgeon tomorrow and am a little anxious. I don't want to be dismissed about this. I would really like to have them taken out, but don't know what the side effects of that surgery would be! But living with achy armpits doesn't sound fun either! Will let you know what happens.
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Interesting that you should mention this because I have been reading so much about the dangers of the metals used in dental procedures, and I started thinking about those tumor markers. I am hoping to get all my amalgam fillings removed, as it is proven they leach toxic mercury into our bodies and is a factor in causing cancer. I would also like to get these tumor markers taken out. Has anyone done this? I just want all the poison the medical profession has put into me OUT! Our bodies are not made to contain metal. It is scaring the hell out of me that this stuff is still in me. Has anyone asked their doctors to remove this stuff?
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I had no idea that clips were left in me until someone on this board mentioned they thought it was the cause of their 'Post Mastectomy Pain Syndrome'. I then remembered reading in my operational report that clips were used. I didn't know they were left in me!!! Geez, if you knew the trouble that I went through to prevent them from leaving a marker in me during a biopsy, you would know I most certainly would object to leaving clips in me. The doctor refused to do my biopsy because I refused to let him leave a marker in me. He finally relented and did the biopsy w/o leaving a marker.
Clips are titanium and they look like staples from a staple gun. A marker is something different. It is a square shaped titanium disc.
I am going to ask my doctors to remove them. I can already hear it; but it's standard procedure, they're not harmful, blah, blah, blah. I'm considering going to an attorney. I'm already irate that an ALND was done when I told my surgeon I didn't want one, even if there was cancer found.
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Thank you smart23 for opening this discussion and bringing this to everyones attention. I have been suffering with pain for almost 6 months since my BMX.
They have now stated that I have PMPS. I have been posting under that discussion board. When I read this thread about the clips, I read my surgical report. Rec'd it months ago but never read it. Nothing was mentioned about clips but they do not always report everything that occurs during a surgery.(I know this from other problems with procedures). I did notice that a resident did my surgery and not my actual surgeon. Not happy about that, never met the resident prior to the surgery or after. First I know about it.
Then I called my surgeons office to get an answer about the clips. I asked to have the Dr. call me. Well, rec'd a return call from the nurse who stated there was nothing in the op report. I said I wanted to talk to the Dr. directly about the clips and the resident. Well, he would not call me back. My husband called and again asked that the Dr. call us. Again, a nurse called him back stating that the Dr. did not remember details to my surgery and that I should have an Xray. We then tried to get an appt. only to be told he was booked for 5 months! So, my only way to find out is to have the xray.
Makingway, I am actually having a lot of pain from one of my markers. I also want it removed. My internist said removing it would cause more pain and increase my slight lympadema I have in the area. The marker is located about 3 inches from my underarm. The entire area hurts. Difficult to wear any bra since the edge of the bra is usually same place where marker is located.
Please post if anyone finds out who will remove these markers and/or clips. Thanks.
Rose
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WoW!!!!....I have been having pain at my sentinal node removal area since surgery...Feels like a hard knot (almond shape) under scar area and very strange irritation as though there is a sandspur/burr rubbing from under my skin...My rad doc said it was a hematoma (I think not) there is no redness and you can not tell (no swelling) and scar is healed....My onco doc said it is a fibrous band (I think not) this thing feels like a burr...My surgeon still has not given me a legitimate answer, says I need more healing time (been 6 months since surgery)...Well.....yesterday I went for first follow-up mammo/us on my left breast and guess what?????.........I asked the ultrasound tech to give that area a good look because of the on going irritatiation/pain and she found 2 surgical clips left in that area...I see my surgeon on Tuesday and wondering what kind of answer he will try to come up with, I am sure that he will say that even if they were left there that they couldn't possibly be the cause of my 6 month on going problem that I have sought to find an answer for....I have also made an appt with a breast cancer specialist the day after I see my surgeon and will ask her to review my films.....I will post again if I get any answers since I thought I was the only one with this mysterious problem.....
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Bump....trying to generate more response of this concern of clips left in after surgery......
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I am 9 weeks out of surgery - bilateral mastectomy and SNBs on both sides. I tried to sleep on my side the other night, and it felt like something sharp was poking me in the side. It actually hurt! I asked my surgeon about it at my appointment, and he said that it was probably a surgical clip. These clips are used to close off major blood vessels during surgery. He said that the body builds up scar tissue around these clips, but that sometimes it takes months for the scar tissue to build up. I have another spot along my incision that also feels like something sharp is poking me, so I assume it is another clip. The surgeon acted like it was no big deal, and after doing some research, I found that apparently these clips are used all the time during surgeries. So I'll be waiting another month or two to see if the pain subsides.
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Saw my surgeon yesterday and asked about these clips that showed up in my first 6 month follow-up mammo/ultrasound ....I am although still sore and have wierd sensations so I wanted to see my mammo/us and look at areas of concern under my arm at sentinal removal area where It feels like a burr/sandspur irritating from under my skin.....I drive my surgeon crazy with all my questions but he did show my my mammo (they put them on cd now, so he pulls if up for me to view) and low and behold right there at that area is 6, yes 6 surgical clips all in a clump!!!!...He tells me this is normal and that they are better to use than sutchers....When I asked if that is what has been irritating me, he says NO that these are left in all the time...In my mind it makes perfect sense that this would be cause ot the sentinal node area on going irritatation....He tells me to trust my doctor and give another 6 months of healing and if it is still a problem we would discuss options then if I wanted them out although he does not recommend removing them...As long as they do not cause a long term problem I can deal with them... I was very suprised at the number of these left in.....
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Has anyone that has discussed clips with their doctors asked what happens if a clip breaks loose? What are the possiblities that a clip can seriously damage another part of the body?
I had heard of clips being used during surgery but assumed they were temporary during the surgery and removed before closing. I have always had a sore sport under my breast that is irrated when I wear a bra. Now I'm wondering...Will definitely quiz my rad about clips when I see her in June for a mammogram, mri, & ultrasound!
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I had a large lumpectomy and then a necessary re-excision two weeks later for one clean margin, and yes, I have at least 16, perhaps more, clips also left in my breast. I did not know it until my first mammo at 6 months and just about died when I say them! Everyone I have checked with, including my breast surgeon all say they will cause no harm or pain and that as many as they feel are needed to be left, can be. They do not just mark where they cut or where you tumor was, they also are used to close scar lines freshly cut as well. Just wonder, should I have to fly anywhere, if I won't set all the buzzers and bells off!!
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Vivre - bodies can tolerate titanium very nicely. Many bone rods, and other body parts are made of that as well. They are not even in the family of what tooth fillings were made from.
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My internist refused to order an xray for me to find out about the clips and how many I might have after BMX. Reason was because of all my pain and that I was not in a position to have another surgery to remove them. He also said it was standard procedure and I would have a difficult time finding someone to remove them. Why won't they even think about the possibility that they could be causing the pain?. It is as if they can't go there because they will then have to find an alternative method. I also have tatoos from my rads of 5 yrs ago. They have always bothered me, the one under my armpit on my side is the most troublesome. I reminded my internist that I seemed to have had a reaction to that also. He had no comment.
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I do find it amazing that the medical profession thinks that everyone reacts the same way to everything - some people's bodies just don't tolerate things that others' do just fine with. I also find their unwillingness to listen to their patients unconscionable. Drs know that the medical profession is just making educated guesses a lot of the time - the patient's insight and information can inform those guesses as well as some lecture they slept through 15 years ago, if they will just climb down off their high horse.
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It's funny, I have been complaining (to all my docs) about this sandspur/burr irritation under my sentinal node scar since surgery....Telling them it feels like a round hard almond shape rock that has burrs in it......Low and behold on my mammo there is a clump of a ball like area full of metal staples all bundled together....My doctor tells me to ignore it and that he has never had anyone that could feel these before so he assumes that I am just imagining this I guess!!!.....Mine feels exactly as it looks on film!!!!....I do not know if these are titanium or stainless steel, I do know that I am allergic to nickel which is used in stainless steel....Most of you can tell this if your ears are irritated with non-gold earrings....
When I told my surgeon that I wanted to view the mammo with him (the ultrasound tech last Friday was the one who had even mentioned these clips to me, thank goodness) he said that unless I had taken a lot of classes in reading mammos that I would not be able to comprehend them.... I have had many mammos in my life and basically wanted to know what was in area of concern and there it was, but surgeons and there egos will not admit that there is even one possibility that we have very legitimate pain/symptoms.....
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I had bilateral mastectomy 2 years ago then now my right side/back where the bra is sore and painful so I went for xray and all is normal except that surgical clips are noted. I wonder if these clips make us sore?!
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I originally posted in April when I was 9 weeks post surgery saying that I had sharp pains. I am now 6+ months post surgery, and the spots where I had sharp pains no longer hurt. So I have to assume that my surgeon was correct, and that scar tissue has built up around the surgical clips to the point where it is no longer painful. I can push down on the spots where it hurt,and I no longer have any pain.
Keep in mind that this is just my experience. I do not believe that everyone reacts the same way to these surgical clips.
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Cornellalum...Angel..I last posted in April and I am just as sore as I was then in my area of concern..Left side lump area..I was able to get my film with these titanium clips showing (1st follow-up mammo at 6 mo) so I took a photo to share (below) so everyone can get an idea of these clips..They are used at surgery to control bleeding and then left in us...I do believe that some of us are more sensitive than others to these metals, the titanium ones have a bit of nickel and since I am allergic to nickel, I wonder if that is why I am still sore...I found a website that had the input of many people with these clips, some went through another operation just to get rid of them, and some of these people did find relief, so it makes you wonder!..This photo shows mine (about 8) all clumped together....Looks like what I was trying to explain to my docs since surgery, I have told them that it feels like I have a burr like area that is causing me soreness and irritation.....
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somanywomen - Wow. That is an incredible picture. It hurts just to look at it. I can't believe that they leave all those clips inside us, and don't ever tell us. The surgeon was very nonchalant about it when I questionned him after surgery. I already knew what the pain was from reading information on this website, so I just asked him about the pain to see if he would tell me about the clips. And yup, he did - like it was no big deal!
Me: "I have some sharp pains under my arm when I lay on it or press on it." Surgeon pushes on the spot that hurts. Surgeon: "Oh, that's probably just some of the surgical clips. Give it a few months, and it'll stop hurting." Me: "Surgical clips? What surgical clips?" Surgeon: "We use them during surgery to stop bleeding." Me: "And you leave them in???" Surgeon: "Yes, scar tissue builds up around them. Sometimes it takes a few months. It will stop hurting soon." Me: "What if it doesn't stop hurting?" Surgeon: "It will. It can take up to six months sometimes."
I looked up the website of one of the companies that makes these clips, and it claims that they are much more effective than sutures. Fewer complications, quicker healing, etc. But you know, you gotta wonder whether they are just easier and quicker for the surgeon.
Sorry to hear some of you are having continuing problems.
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cornellalum, I do wonder if it is just a quick fix in my case....The pre-op took about a n hour longer than they planned (mammo techs could not get a good view for the wire insertion) so by the time I got to the surgeon, I am sure he was a bit put off by them taking so long and needed to hurry so he could stay on schedule for his continual surgeries for that day!! I remember he looked at me before surgery like where in the world have you been, even though it was those techs that were the cause of delay...I now wonder if he had not have been in a hurry, if I would still be having the soreness on left side, it's been about a year and like you said, he just tells me to give it more time!!.....My soreness is at the SN area as well as the Lump area, I am very sore if I push a little on that side...Still can't sleep on left side..I keep trying to ignore it and think positive, but it is hard to know if I should be more concerned and how will I know if it is something more than just slow healing.....I think the egos of these surgeons gets in the way of being honest with us..He doesn't want to hear about it and since I only see him every 6 months, I am no longer a big $$$$ factor for him and he rushes me in and out!!!
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somanywomen - I surely remember the pain, and not being able to sleep on that side. It's just like a knife is being stuck in your side. Sometimes I would turn over in my sleep, and I would wake up hurting so much I was almost gasping for breath. It's terrible that you are still having that pain so long after your surgery. I really didn't do any research to find if there was any more information out there about it. Have you? I have to believe that other people are having the same issues.
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Good evening ladies,
I believe you can get your surgical reports and there will be mention of clips (and how many) intentionally left in you. I think I read that I have at least one in me still and thought it was odd that I'm reading it. Now that I found this thread, then it is true. I never had any surgery pain but I'm now 6 weeks post surgery and am finding sharp pain here and there.
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Wow... I have surgical clips in my right axilla too. I have always wondered why, but then forget to ask when I am with the doctor! (Post chemo and surgical menopause do that to you!) Yes, i would love to have mine removed... but who the heck wants another surgery?!
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I have my surgical reports, and they have lots of information in there about the procedure, but no mention of the surgical clips. My doctor, as I mentioned above, verified that he left "surgical clips" in.
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My radiation ocologist told me that most good surgeons leave clips in the
bed of the surgery so it is pinpointed as to exactly where it was..
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