Supplements: chart for which to take w/ food vs. without?

CrunchyPoodleMama

Basically, a quick list of which to take with meals and which to take on an empty stomach? If not, this should be easy enough for me to compile based on what all the labels say, but I got to thinking about SS and her plotting out all her pills for the day and I thought I should do a better job on taking these vitamins etc. at the right times!

*** Master List of When to Take Which Supplements *** (this is a work in progress; please post what you know and I'll add to this list!)

First Thing in the Morning (empty stomach):

vitamin C
carnitine
carnosine
alpha-lipoic acid
NAC

Empty Stomach AND One to Two Hours Apart from Any Other Supplements

AlA, Vit E and Maitake (take these three together, but apart from other supplements)
Avemar
Iodine/Iodoral (does it need to be taken on an empty stomach or with meals, or does it matter?)
Immpower
IP-6
Modified Citrus Pectin

Wobenzym or other enzymes such as Univase Fort (proteolytic enzymes), pancreatin, etc. (at least one hour before eating or other pills, or at least 3 hours after a meal)

Before Meals

ALA
NAC (take with vitamin C)
Sam E
Transresveratrol 

With Meals

CoQ10 (metabolized by fat, so advisable to take with a fatty substance such as olive oil or avocado
Cucumin/turmeric (take with black pepper and oil, whether as a supplement or as part of a meal)
DIM
Most vitamins
Calcium D-Glucarate

Any Time (either empty stomach or with meal)

Selenium

Before Bed (on mostly-empty stomach but with a bit of a fatty substance such as cheese)

Calcium (half your daily dose)
Vitamin D3 (because it promotes sleep)
Vitamin K2 (synergistic with calcium and magnesium)
Magnesium (promotes sleep)
Melatonin (natural sleep hormone)
Progesterone cream (promotes sleep)
** Make sure your bedroom is completely dark, not even a clock radio light shining on you... just your friendly "sleep in total darkness" reminder!)

MaddyMason

Julia, I came across this very interesting article which addresses this concern. It's worth plowing through.

Click here: http://www.aor.ca/assets/Research/pdf/Kitchen_Sink_summer_2002.pdf

As for me, I go virtually nuts with all the different stuff I have to take on an empty stomach, at different times from this, that or the other. For starters, I take vitamin C, carnitine, carnosine, and alpha-lipoic acid first thing in the AM, empty stomach. An hour later, AHCC (empty stomach, or ES). An hour later, Doxycycline, ES. An hour later, Univase Forte, (proteolytic enzymes) also ES. An hour later, Fibroboost, also ES. An hour later, IP6, also ES!  So some days I don't get all that stuff in, and most days, I don't get to eat more than one meal a day! Most supps are supposed to be taken twice a day- so forget that, I'm lucky to get them all in once a day.

So then, after I do eat, I take all the rest of the supps. that need to be taken WITH food. Aaaargh!

Anyway, HTH!

Hugggs! Maddy, Hudson Valley, NY

CrunchyPoodleMama

Thank you, Maddy!! This is GREAT... I am running out the door again but maybe I'll start a "master list" in the original post where we can all keep track... it sure would help me and maybe others too!

MaddyMason

Very welcome, Julia! A master list- great idea! This million supplement thing at all different times of day is really starting to drive me nuts. You're pretty new at this, I'm 2 years out, and have a hard time maintaining motivation to keep up such a rigorous schedule. Oh well, I do the best I can!

Hugggs!

Maddy

Nan56143

A few articles which may help...or not? Honestly, it is difficult to find one article which speaks specifically to many vitamins/supplements. I do know that calcium, D3 and magnesium are best when taken at bedtime and will help you sleep better.  

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/389546/health_tips_why_you_should_take_vitamins.html?cat=51

http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/a_good_place.html

http://www.brighthub.com/health/diet-nutrition/articles/39572.aspx

http://www.mahalo.com/how-to-take-vitamins

CrunchyPoodleMama

Oh Nan, that's a great point -- progesterone cream is good to apply at bedtime too because that definitely helps you sleep better. Got to finish some client work then will get to work on the master list!!

Anonymous

Maddy, may I  ask you a few questions  regarding your protocol? I am on a rigorous regimen also and would like to receive the maximum benefit from my supplements. I don't know if that is always the case. Can you tell me if you are taking ALA  first thing in the morning as a personal preference or for efficacy? I take my IP6 first thing in the morning and again at night. If taking the ALA first is better (I also take it with Vit E and Maitake) I can switch. And lastly, why do you take the enzymes ES and how long do you wait between eating and supplements to have ES?

This is such an important topic, Thank you all for the great links.  

MaddyMason

Hi Carole, I do the best I can, but I am far from perfect. Being so rigorous gets "old" if you know what I mean, and many days I just can't get it all in. Some days I don't get any of it in! Anyway, I read an article by some biochemist (sorry- I don't know if I could dig it up) who explained the reasoning behind taking carnitine and ALA first thing in the morning, empty stomach, and together. Both together work better than either one alone. My 2nd dose is usually after dinner, just b/c I don't have enough empty stomachs! (I shoulda been a cow, eh? LOL!) Dr. Schachter says to take the Maitake D fraction (I use the concentrated liquid- 6 drops per dose) 3 times a day. I don't think that matters if it's ES. As for the proteolytic enzymes, these are the most important supplement to take totally ES, with nothing else. If you take them with food, they will just help to digest your food. If you take them ES, the theory is, they find their way into your bloodstream and to the cancer cells, where they digest the protective protein coating around the cancer cells, allowing their destruction. Dr. Gonzalez in NYC is the most famous doctor these days who bases most of his protocol on these enzymes. Apparently, Univase Forte is the best brand, b/c it has the largest amount of chymotrypsin in it. Take the enzymes at least one hour before eating or other pills, or at least 3 hours after a meal. HTH!

Hugggs! Maddy

MaddyMason

Carole, can you share your regimen with us? I am constantly tweaking what I do, and always learning from what everyone else is doing, too!

Thanks!

Maddy

seaotter

Have any of you girls heard that skipping a day or two from supplements will help them work better??

Patty

MaddyMason

Yes, my naturopath as always advised taking supps. 6 days a week, taking a break from them one day a week. (I wouldn't advise this with medications though, unless your doctor has said so.)

I would LIKE to take a lot more supps than I already take, but I could never afford them all (I could easily spend over $1000 a month on this stuff, and I can't afford even half of that, so there is just no way) and there aren't enough hours in the day to swallow hundreds of pills anyway, so some I tend to rotate-  few months of this one, a few months of that one. Some I stay on all the time, but others seem to come and go.

My program keeps changing and evolving. Maybe one day I'll settle down to a more permanent routine. Maybe not! LOL!

Hugggs! Maddy

MaddyMason

Question about these: "An hour later, AHCC (empty stomach, or ES). An hour later, Doxycycline, ES. An hour later, Univase Forte, (proteolytic enzymes) also ES. An hour later, Fibroboost, also ES. An hour later, IP6, also ES!" -- You're saying all of these are taken on an empty stomach? so you don't eat anything for 5-6 hours??

Julia

***********

Yes, my goal is to eat just one meal a day, (usually around 6 PM) and maybe a light snack. I am struggling to lose a substantial amount of weight as well, and there are reams of scientific studies backing the efficacy of some sort of caloric restriction routine, be it straight CR, or every other day fasting, or one meal a day eating, or any other such way of doing it. I find eating one meal a day the easiest way for me. YMMV.

Also, IP6 needs to be taken on an empty stomach alone, not combined with any other supplements. It's an iron chelator, so it's important to take it apart from food or other pills.

Note that Wobenzyme is a similar proteolytic enzyme to Univase Forte, and should be taken ES apart from ANY other pills, or so says my doctor.

I hadn't heard that Iodoral needed to be taken apart from any other supplements. Why is that? Just one more complication to add to my day! LOL!

Hugggs!

Maddy

CrunchyPoodleMama

Okay, that makes sense! From what I've read on threads here, iodine also chelates nutrients and therefore shouldn't be taken with anything else (someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that or anything else on the list!).

Yes, my goal is to eat just one meal a day, (usually around 6 PM) and maybe a light snack. I am struggling to lose a substantial amount of weight as well, and there are reams of scientific studies backing the efficacy of some sort of caloric restriction routine, be it straight CR, or every other day fasting, or one meal a day eating, or any other such way of doing it. I find eating one meal a day the easiest way for me. YMMV.

Great move to reduce calories... are you sure the one-meal-a-day thing isn't affecting your metabolism though? I'm trying to eat 3-4 small/healthy meals throughout the day so my blood sugar stays on an even keel and my metabolism stays revved up... but maybe there are other benefits to eating just once a day that I don't know about! 

vivre

Good idea for a thread Crunchy. It is still so confusing to me! I keep changing things all the time too.

My problem is I never have an empty stomach. When I switched from large meals, to small throughout the day, I finally lost weight and had more energy. I just cannot imagine one meal a day. How do you do that Maddy?

I am trying to detox with NAC for heavy metals. It says to take it 3 times a day on an empty stomach. Well that is impossible to me! So I am lucky to get it down once or twice. I find if I get too hungry I get really shaky, and  I also snack on junk so I just keep eating smaller, healthier snacks, like some nuts here, a couple of eggs there, an apple another time. It keeps me going. I take my minerals first thing in the morning with breakfast, iodine, selenium, and b vitamins. Then I take antioxindants at lunch, cucumin, cinnamon, myomin, omega 3 and C as well as betaine and beta 1 glucan. Before bed I do the progesterone cream, mag. I never thought of the D at night. I usually take it at lunch. Did you guys read anywhere about taking it in the eve is better? I thought it was supposed to energize us.

CrunchyPoodleMama

Vivre, I may be wrong about vit D! Need to look that up (or someone who knows off the top of their heads whether it energizes or relaxes us, feel free to chime in!).

I know, it's confusing, and since I also eat small meals throughout the day, the times my stomach is really TRULY empty is before I eat breakfast, and before bed. BTW, does "take on an empty stomach" also mean that you shouldn't eat right after?!

Yazmin

Julia, I am glad you started this thread. I had been taking my D3/calcium/magnisium at the wrong time of day!

And what a relief to read where Maddy says: "Yes, my naturopath as always advised taking supps. 6 days a week, taking a break from them one day a week."  How nice it is to do the right thing with my supplements and also start saving some money!!!!!

CrunchyPoodleMama

Yazmin, I could be wrong about that -- now I can't find where I (thought I) read that!

I've been taking one-day breaks occasionally, so I'm very glad to read what Maddy's naturpath said too!

Nan56143

These links may be helpful. From what I have read, it is better to take 1/2 of your dose of Calcium, all of your magnesium and your D3 before bedtime. I know that all three are fat soluable, but if you have just a snack before bedtime such as cheese, perhaps that would solve that problem. I just know I sleep much better taking these at night. Don't forget the Melatonin...that is so very very important!!

http://nutrition.suite101.com/article.cfm/vitamin_d_deficiency_and_insomnia

http://www.usdoctor.com/insomnia.htm

http://www.naturalhealthanswers.com/page/page/5221237.htm

http://www.livestrong.com/article/15605-does-vitamin-d-improve-sleep/

A short sentence from this link below

http://thealvertonparadigm.blogspot.com/2008/11/vitamin-d-sleep-soundly-with-d3.html

Thursday, November 6, 2008

VITAMIN D, SLEEP SOUNDLY WITH D3 For optimal sleep take vitamin D3 2,000, to 5,000 I.U. international units, daily.

Above upon recomendation of DR. Edward Lichten. http://www.usdoctor.com/

MaddyMason

A few more points to be aware of- most of us know about vitamins, minerals, and other essential nutrients for survival and sometimes megadoses, as in the case of vitamin C, for treatment of various conditions, but a lot of people still think if a little is good, more must be better. This is not always true.

We would die without a certain minimal amount of iron, and iron deficiency anemia is not a good state. But the fact is, most people who are sick have too much iron, not too little. We know that IP6 is good for fighting cancer, but did you know that the way it works is that it "chelates" the iron our of the cancer cells? Cancer cells sequestor huge amounts of iron, which is not good, and which is why we want to get rid of it. A good reference on the subject is a wonderful book called The Iron Timebomb, by Bill Sardi. I have many other references about IP6 and iron, if anyone is interested.

Even less well known is the deleterious effect that taking calcium can have on our bodies. We in this country generally need more vitamin D, magnesium, strontium, and boron to keep our bones strong, not more calcium. Dr. Tomas Levy is working on his 7th book, which sadly isn't out yet, called, Death by Calcium: the Toxic Nutrient. It's very hard to dig up information about why you should NOT take extra calcium, but I did find this quote from the Blaylock newsletter-

"Finally, calcium can be a major cancer promoter, especially in the prostate. A recent study found that taking calcium supplements or drinking milk daily increased prostate cancer risk 297% and that it increased the spread of the cancer by an astounding 457%."

A scientist in England, Jane Plant, was an end stage BC patient who, through her own research, developed the theory that BC was spurred on by dairy products (high in calcium) and cured herself and many other patients by these dietary changes. She wrote a book on it, whose name escapes me, but I could look it up. This stemmed from her observation that Asian countries who consume virtually no dairy products have the lowest rates of BC.

Anyway, I never take supplemental iron or calcium, nor do I eat dairy products, except butter. Just my 2 cents!

Hugggs! Maddy

addendum- here's the link to Jane Plant's work-

http://www.rense.com/general35/av.htm

Nan56143

Dear Maddy,

Oh just one more thing for my daughter Lori to think about. I know that in the book Natural Super Woman written by Dr. Uzzi Reiss, he also says not to take calcium but to take K2. Thank you so much for this information which I wil pass along to Lori.Perhaps I should stop taking the calcium as well? What do you think? I know you are not a doctor, but all of you women on this forum seem so educated and informed.

I am 68 years old, and was on Fosomax for 7 years and will never take that again!! My dentist says that all bisphosphonates stay in your body for as long as 20 years after you stop taking them. The side effects are just too dangerous and of course as far as I am concerned the true verdict on them is still not revealed.

I did read an article about taking strontium instead of calcium also. Lori consumes very very little dairy products also, other than butter. Please share you references about iron and IP6.

MaddyMason

Hi Nan,

Of course I'm not a doctor (nor do I play one on TV) so I can't advise anyone what to do or take. I can only say what I do, and, for reasons I wrote above, I've chosen not take take any supplemental calcium.

The bisphosphonate issue is worrisome as well. I took 4 or 5 treatments of Zometa because of bone mets, then elected to discontue the treatment. I can't undo what I've already done, so there is no point in obsessing over it either. But I agree with you- I don't like those drugs. My niece and son are both in medical school, and, even though the both of them are very mainstream (David says he likes being brainwashed! LOL!) they both agreed with me in persuading my mom to stop taking Fosamax, saying that in the long term, these drugs weaken the bones, unlike what we've been led to believe.

An MD/PhD doctor from U. of Maryland, Dr. Shamsuddin, is the "big man in IP6". He has a whole book about it, available on Amazon.

Here are some links about IP6.

http://www.jmbblog.com/cancer-alternative-treatments-digest-part-8-ip6/

IP6 Shines Brightly as an Alternative Cancer Treatment and Preventive

HTH! Hugggs, Maddy

Anonymous

Hi Maddy, 

Thank you for your replies. Here is my very rigorous regimen and you can also find more on the thread "What is your approach /protocol":  http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/79/topic/743364?page=5#idx_138

Here goes:

Ip6 powder, Pharma Grade Omega 3, Pharma Grade Liquid COQ10, VitD3 Drops, Maitake D Fraction Drops, I3C, Curcumin with Bioperine, Advance System Plant Enzyme, Genistein, Progesterone Cream, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Bentonite, Black Cumin Seeds/Oil,  Multi Vitamin (which I am rethinking), Vit E Mixed Tocopherols, 

I also cut sugar, white stuff, dairy and fried food while adopting a mostly raw organic, very little chicken or fish diet and I drink green tea. Dropped 40 pounds, feeling great and not the least bit hungry. I am also juicing but not as much as I should. 

There are a few other things I would like to add but since I started spacing more instead of taking a big glob of pile of supps 3 xs per day it is all I can do to get these in. I always spaced the IP6 but I began spacing (but taking together) the AlA, Vit E and Maitake after attending a cancer conference. I spoke to a few of the lecturers who were very adamant that I not take the AlA with food or supps with the exception of the Vit E and Maitake. 

Any suggestions on improving the combinations is most welcome.  

Yazmin

Maddy, you wrote: "....Yes, my goal is to eat just one meal a day, (usually around 6 PM) and maybe a light snack."

Like Julia says: I wonder if that might be affecting your metabolism: I was told by the nutritionist at the Cancer Treatment Center of America that the best way to boost your metabolism is to have several small meals a day.....

MaddyMason

Yazmin wrote:

Maddy, you wrote: "....Yes, my goal is to eat just one meal a day, (usually around 6 PM) and maybe a light snack."

Like Julia says: I wonder if that might be affecting your metabolism: I was told by the nutritionist at the Cancer Treatment Center of America that the best way to boost your metabolism is to have several small meals a day.....

Yes, this is "common wisdom". But my very simple answer to why I do it is this- "Whatever works!"

Hugggs! Maddy

MaddyMason

Carole, I take Black Seed oil too- supposed to be very "anti-cancer". I also take a capsule that has bitter melon in it with the Black Seed- another anti-cancer veg. Where do you get yours from, and how much do you take? I get mine from www.amazingherbs.com  recommended by Bill Sardi.

Hugggs! Maddy

Welga

Hello,

I'm also borderline anemic and have been for a long time. Reading about it, I learned that eating fibers can make us anemic as it robs us from it....very hard to avoid fiber specially if you are constipated, bid dilema....

Welga

Anonymous

Hi Maddy,  I have not spoken to Amazing Herbs so I don't know what their process is. I take 2 gel caps per day, I use the oil for my skin also especially around my incisions to promote healing and I rub the oil on my breasts once or twice per day.  Are you using the Bitter Melon for diabetes control?  I forgot to add that I do not take the Black Seed with curcumin. I was told that it does not work synergistically. 

Welga, I am considering purchasing Blackseed Bitters which you might be interested in to keep the constipation at bay. Constipation and cancer go hand in hand so I understand your concern. Here is some info on the bitters and auto-intoxification but I need to check on the type and amount of honey they are using:

Black Seed Bitters

The #1 reason for using Black Seed Bitters as part of your daily diet is: to prevent and relieve auto-intoxification. Constipation and poor bowel movement (whereas fecal material has not been properly eliminated) can lead to the absorption of toxins into the body's bloodstream. This absorption of toxins from within the body's digestive system is a form of self-poisoning or auto-intoxification. The digestive system is connected to the circulatory and lymphatic systems, and once the toxins settle into the body¹s tissue, many diseases including autoimmune disorders occur. Some of the disorders include headaches, brain fog, depression, obesity, diverticulosis, PMS, bad breath, indigestion, gas, bloating, arthritis, body odor, and even colon cancer. It has also been reported that women who are constipated are four times more likely to develop breast cancer. Black Seed Bitters is helpful in situations of auto-intoxification, high blood pressure, diabetes, aches & pains, anemia, colds, asthma, arthritis, fatigue, fibroids, fever, constipation, colon cleansing, loss of appetite and menstrual disorders. Black Seed Bitters is an herbal formula with all natural ingredients. It contains Abochie Bark, Aloe, Black Seed, Boie Bande, Coriander, Ceresse, Cayenne, Chenney Root, Chickory, Dandelion, Distilled Water, Flax, Garlic, Ginkoba, Ginger, Honey, Kale, Kelp, Lemon, Mahogany Bark, Oregano, Sea Moss, and Sorrel

Welga

Efflorescing

Great, I appreciate your suggestion, never heard of this product, will look it up at heath food store,I also have many of these symptoms, and my aunt had breast and colon cancer so I am concerned a lot. I was wondering what I could take instead of metamucil or bran this sounds great although I have to try it because the cayenne could not agree with my burning stomach and reflux..... hope I will be able to use it. Thanks for your help

Welga

Yazmin

Efflorescing, you wrote: "It has also been reported that women who are constipated are four times more likely to develop breast cancer"

OMG: I'll never stop learning something new every day on this Board....

OK, the link you kindly provided does not work, due to a small typoe. Here is the (hopefully) working link:

http://blackseedherbalessence.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index

vivre

Welga, did you know that mag and vit c also ease constipation and are great ways to clean the bowels? I take them both at bedtime. Works like a charm.

Yazmin

And Efflorescing: If indeed, constipation raises breast cancer risk, do you think that other gastro-instestinal problems could also promote cancer in the long run? (I mean, that would sound logical to me, what do you think?)