Haven't had biopsy yet, but
Comments
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Chunky....IDC DOES NOT HAVE SYMPTOMS.......
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I agree with hollyann - in most areas, you can get your mammo/ultra sound and then be scheduled for a biopsy within weeks of each other. I am in Florida and once I found the lump, and wasted no time in getting it checked out, I was having a biopsy - getting results in days, and then making my treatment decisions. You cannot know for certain if it is indeed cancer unless you have a biopsy and get results back - doctors will not call anything cancer until they get the pathology reports - it is as much for their protection as it is for yours and your sanity.
It is a nerve wracking experience and you just have to stay calm until you get the biopsy and results - then you can make your plan of attack and go from there - but there is no reason to give yourself a death sentence and deny treatment you aren't even scheduled to have until you know what it is you do have - and hopefully it is nothing at all.
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Doctors cannot tell you you have breast cancer before a biopsy proves it. If one does, a lawsuit is warranted and they know that, so they tend to use that term very carefully. So when I see you using the plural, suggesting that this happened several times, it makes me wonder. Did this really happen, or are you unconsciously re-writing history in your mind?
Any suggestion to the contrary is ridiculous and any doctor who would do otherwise is not a doctor that anyone should be going to. The rules of professional responsibility (across professions) are basically uniform throughtout the country - I sincerely doubt doctors in Georgia have that much latitude.
*sigh* Two of the three doctors I met with did tell me that. That's why I kept seeking another opinion -- I thought at the time that it was irresponsible of them to tell me I have cancer based only on a mammogram, u/s and feel! I questioned them on it. I pointed out that the radiologist said my microcalcifications were BI-RADS 5 so didn't that leave a 5% possibility this was benign? Two of them very specifically told me they are sure it's bc because of my specific symptom (bleeding duct), the feel of the mass, and the pattern of microcalcifications. My current doctor, a wonderful surgeon named Dr. Richard Fine, said that I may have two different kinds of bc but the type(s) won't be known until after the biopsy.
Even if he and the other doctors are wrong -- and believe me, I pray every day that they are -- I'm not going to sue him over this. He is a good, competent, very well respected doctor and I trust that he told me I have bc because he believes I do. YES, I was angry at first and after the first doctor told me I have bc, I told my husband she is a quack for saying something like that without biopsy results. Well, she's not a quack either... she treated a dear friend of mine two years ago and my friend thinks the world of her. She's very respected in this area as well.
Anyway, my biopsy is in less than two hours and I don't like the sick-to-my-stomach, tight-chest feeling I'm getting again... I'm going to spend some time dwelling on positive things for a while before I have to leave. I wish you all well.
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Wow, do I understand correctly that you're saying that Dr. Richard Fine told you that you have cancer before a biopsy was done?? A "good, competent, well respected" and trusted doctor would be very foolish to make such a premature diagnosis. I would think you would have an excellent case for a lawsuit against him and the other doctors you saw! I'm not an advocate of frivolous lawsuits, but holy cow - I hope you'll sue every one of them, to prevent them from causing this kind of distress in other women!
From the National Cancer Institute http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/wyntk/breast/page6 it says "A biopsy is the removal of tissue to look for cancer cells. A biopsy is the ONLY way to tell for sure if cancer is present." (emphasis mine).
PLEASE consider taking legal action against these irresponsible doctors! This is absolutely unconscionable!
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Doctors cannot tell you you have breast cancer before a biopsy proves it. If one does, a lawsuit is warranted and they know that, so they tend to use that term very carefully. So when I see you using the plural, suggesting that this happened several times, it makes me wonder. Did this really happen, or are you unconsciously re-writing history in your mind?
Any suggestion to the contrary is ridiculous and any doctor who would do otherwise is not a doctor that anyone should be going to. The rules of professional responsibility (across professions) are basically uniform throughtout the country - I sincerely doubt doctors in Georgia have that much latitude.
*sigh* Two of the three doctors I met with did tell me that. That's why I kept seeking another opinion -- I thought at the time that it was irresponsible of them to tell me I have cancer based only on a mammogram, u/s and feel! I questioned them on it. I pointed out that the radiologist said my microcalcifications were BI-RADS 5 so didn't that leave a 5% possibility this was benign? Two of them very specifically told me they are sure it's bc because of my specific symptom (bleeding duct), the feel of the mass, and the pattern of microcalcifications. My current doctor, a wonderful surgeon named Dr. Richard Fine, said that I may have two different kinds of bc but the type(s) won't be known until after the biopsy.
Even if he and the other doctors are wrong -- and believe me, I pray every day that they are -- I'm not going to sue him over this. He is a good, competent, very well respected doctor and I trust that he told me I have bc because he believes I do. YES, I was angry at first and after the first doctor told me I have bc, I told my husband she is a quack for saying something like that without biopsy results. Well, she's not a quack either... she treated a dear friend of mine two years ago and my friend thinks the world of her. She's very respected in this area as well.
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I am curious.
These doctors are well respected and competent(?) Did they tell you that a biopsy was unnecessary to determine a treatment plan? Did they tell you that you needed to have DEADLY chemo? Did they tell you that your cancer would kill you? I rather think that they acted more responsibly, especially if they were competent. But they DID tell you that you had cancer without a biopsy.
And here you are.... You are defending them now as though their actions were above reproach, yet for months you agonized and refused their recommendations for a biopsy? And didn't you just want to refuse their choice of biopsy procedure not the dx? i.e. core vs excisional? It didn't sound to me like you questioned their dx then. It took several people telling you that a biopsy was necessary.In fact, didn't you state that your doctors were insisting on a biopsy? It just didn't happen to be the type that you wanted.
Did you honestly believe that other women with a cancer dx would know that much MORE about your situation? If you are not on drugs, I am seriously thinking that you need some. At the very least seek a counselor for your mental health, regardless of the dx.
If what you say is true, these doctors have been much more hurtful and mean to you than any woman on this site. We have been honest, brutally honest, but honest. Yet, you stated that you would do your best to see that no other newbie was treated as you have been treated here and simultaneously you would feel terrible to sue these doctors that put you here in the first place in a hysterical state with apparent misinformation???
I am sorry. I am still incredulous at your attitude and behavior. I had doctors that are also very well respected but when they did something wrong I called the patient advocate and the insurance carrier to report their wrong doing. It is to prevent them from hurting others in the future. I would say that you have no respect for your BC sisters if you won't take action. Unless of course, they never did anything wrong and you have misinformed us.
All of that aside, I DO wish you well today and hope that in a few weeks when your dx comes back that you are calmer and have actually done some useful research. Read other posts in this site thoroughly before immediately posting questions. Do not discount conventional medicine without thoroughly researching ALL of the options and of course your oncologist's recommendations!
Think before you type and in all honesty, I think you need to clear up the ambiguous posts that you have had. OR you can stay on the alternatives thread where there are some whackos - oops did I say that? - that will support any monkey's piss cure/treatment that a snake oil salesman sells them. Or believe that a day or two of eating organic veggies will make them feel as though they are on their way to a cure.
OK folks, I have said my peace and I guess this is why I refrain from posting to the newbies on the thread. I do expect a little common sense, common decency, and integrity.
C
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cmharris - Why do you have to get all snotty about the alternative and complementary forum too?
In one line you admonish Crunchy to think before typing, and then your next sentence disparages "whackos" on the alternative threads. Many of the supplements (such as I3C, calcium d-glucarate) and diet modifications that they advocate are backed up by research, and do have an effect on risk of recurrence and mortality. Take a look: http://cancer.ucsf.edu/crc/nutrition_breast.pdf
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from Crunchy's bio:
To make a long story short, this doctor didn't answer my questions... I got a second opinion (had to wait over a month to get in with new doctor)...got second ultrasound as well as mammogram, both of which (I was told) indicate that I have bc. Doctor said mass seems to be 5cm (based on feel, not u/s or mammogram). Mammogram report said I have BI-RADS 5 microcalcifications.
This second doctor refused to do excisional biopsy as I requested and said I had to do a core biopsy first, but gave me no reason beyond "That was how things were done 30 years ago."
On 11/3, met with third doctor who patiently answered my questions and explained why they shouldn't do an excisional biopsy and why I needed to have a core biopsy first. I don't want to do it, not wanting holes punched in this thing to allow it to spread, but agreed to do a core biopsy on 11/10 since all the breast specialists covered by my insurance refused to do an excisional biopsy/lumpectomy.
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She also stated the 'excisional vs core biopsy' in several of her many posts as the reason for this taking so long. She seems to contradict herself when she gets called to the carpet and change her story to try to make herself look better.
You know, we ALL have crosses to bear and I'm not going to bore anybody with mine but to use that as an excuse for all the drama, insensitivity and lack of integrity is simply inexcusable. The 'woe is me' coming to women who are actually dealing with breast cancer and everything else difficult in their life is sickening. I, for one, am tired of drama queens and attention whores on this site, but of course every community has them. Here I am guilty of giving her just what she wants .. attention. *sigh*
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Just to be devil's advocate -- I was a basket-case for months and it took me a while to learn all the terminology and express things correctly. I think those doctors are horrible to say it's cancer without a biopsy -- perhaps they said it could be cancer and they need to do a biopsy to confirm? If they said it was cancer they are not good, ethical doctors!! Perhaps Crunchy was so panicked and didn't want the confirmation of a biopsy so she kept seeing more doctors to try to get a different opinion and put off getting bad news? Or I could be wrong...
If I didn't have my Effexor you'd think I am a flakier than a box of corn flakes -- keeps me even. Crunchy -- your panic needs to be managed -- I think you mentioned somewhere that you're on Effexor -- the dose needs to be corrected. I'm not saying this in meanness -- it will help you tremendously to up the dose to even things out.
Let's hope the biopsy goes well. And please remember it can take up to a week to get the results, whether is is cancer or benign. A slow dx does not mean bad news! Good luck.
Elizabeth
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Crunchy ~ I'm glad you posted that link to that lovely TV piece. It really helped me understand who you are, and after seeing it, and trying to reconcile it with some of your posts, I'm wondering if you might be suffering from PTSD. I can't imagine losing 1 child, no less 3, and I have a feeling it has taken a far greater toll on you than you realize.
I hope your biopsy goes well today, and I encourage you not to think ahead any more! I think that thinking way too far ahead, combined with the extreme fear and anxiety (classic PTSD symptoms) is what's getting you in trouble and misunderstood here.
And you're welcome to hang out with us "wackos" (???) in the Alternatives section -- who, just for the record, have mostly all had traditional treatment first, and are using alternatives to regain what those treatments took from us. And for what it's worth -- UCLA also has a complete department of integrative medicine -- hardly wacko stuff. Deanna
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I did not blast the entire alternatives thread. I do know from trying to be well informed about this poster that she has found a lot of comfort in the alternatives thread. I also know that there are legitimate natural holistic measures to complement our treatment. I also know that there are indeed whackos over there on the thread that promote the idea that healthy living willl save you. I was fit, look at my avatar. I was 48 in that pic. I ate healthy foods and took care of myself. I did not take hormones, birth control, or fertility drugs. My oncologists and surgeons said that I was one of hte healthiest women they had treated at any age. I still got cancer. A healthy lifestyle can help you get throughj treatment but not always and it is not a cure.
C
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A lot of people have used "stopping the spread of misinformation" as a reason for replying to Crunchy at all. This post is in that spirit, because I get tired of seeing the same post over and over. "I ate right and I still got cancer, therefore, diet has no effect." This just isn't true.
If you read this publication from University of California, San Francisco Medical Center, http://cancer.ucsf.edu/crc/nutrition_breast.pdf you can see that diet and lifestyle can have a dramatic effect on RISK. Of course it doesn't say diet is a cure; it also doesn't say it's a guarantee that you won't get cancer. Relying on diet and lifestyle alone to treat cancer is irresponsble, but ignoring their impact on the risk of initial diagnosis, recurrence and mortality is also irresponsible.
The pdf references more than 300 studies that were published in medical journals related to nutrition and breast cancer, with findings like those pasted below. Diet has a much bigger role than simply helping you get through treatment.
"Breast cancer survivors significantly reduced mortality by following a diet low in fat, high in
vegetables, high in fiber, and high in fruit intake was significantly associated with reduced mortality in breast cancer survivors.The combination of consuming five or more daily servings of vegetables and fruits, and accumulating
540+ metabolic equivalent tasks-min/wk (equivalent to walking 30 minutes 6 d/wk) decreased
mortality by nearly 50%.Cartenoid intake was significantly associated with reduced mortality in breast cancer survivors.
Recent studies indicate that a high intake of omega-6 fatty acids (linoleic acid, which can
be converted to arachidonic acid) promote breast tumor development and metastasis." -
Did they tell you that a biopsy was unnecessary to determine a treatment plan?
No, they didn't... Dr. Israel and Dr. Corgan both told me I needed to have a core biopsy. I wanted an excisional biopsy. Honestly, when I met with Dr. Israel, I didn't believe there was much of a chance at all that I had bc. (because of my age, no cancer history in my family, plus I was drinking a ton of caffeine which I thought was giving me a fibrocystic lump) From what I had researched, it seemed to me that they should be able to remove the whole lump first THEN examine it for cancer. (Why did I want to do that? I can't tell you, because I'd be jumped on for spreading bad information.)
Did they tell you that your cancer would kill you? I rather think that they acted more responsibly, especially if they were competent. But they DID tell you that you had cancer without a biopsy.
And here you are.... You are defending them now as though their actions were above reproach, yet for months you agonized and refused their recommendations for a biopsy? And didn't you just want to refuse their choice of biopsy procedure not the dx? i.e. core vs excisional? It didn't sound to me like you questioned their dx then. It took several people telling you that a biopsy was necessary.In fact, didn't you state that your doctors were insisting on a biopsy? It just didn't happen to be the type that you wanted.
Yes, that's true. Also, the first doctor I met with, Dr. Israel, did NOT point-blank tell me I have bc. In fact he was very dodgy about my questions as to why I couldn't do an excisional biopsy etc.
If you are not on drugs, I am seriously thinking that you need some. At the very least seek a counselor for your mental health, regardless of the dx.
I had been but weaned myself off of it a few weeks ago. I guess that was a dumb idea.
If what you say is true, these doctors have been much more hurtful and mean to you than any woman on this site. We have been honest, brutally honest, but honest.
I wish you could have heard exactly what they said how they were talking to me. I think they were just being (brutally) honest with me... Dr. C., for example, was actually getting a little emotional because (up to that point) I didn't think I had bc and didn't give her the impression I felt there was any urgency about any of this, and I think she was trying to shake me up and get me act quickly since I'd dawdled so many months.
Crunchy -- your panic needs to be managed -- I think you mentioned somewhere that you're on Effexor -- the dose needs to be corrected. I'm not saying this in meanness -- it will help you tremendously to up the dose to even things out.
I agree with you... and yes... I do need to get back on it. Thank you. (I was on Effexor years ago, in my late 20's... when my husband and I started TTC I transitioned to Zoloft, which I was told was safe for pregnant women.)
I just looked at my records from Dr. C's office (the only one I have a copy of)... in the notes section, it says this:"Pt has been told by previous surgeon that this is cancer, she neglected it for some time, has been told by me this is cancer and that she needs treatment and that if she refuses and has a baby will likely die prior to her baby being grown, if she does not go forward from here, she does so knowing that she is risking her life." (It says REASOR right before all that; not sure what that means.)
I actually had NOT been told point-blank by Dr. I. that "this is cancer" as that note says, but in any case... anyway, interesting that a doctor would admit in my chart that she told me "this is cancer" if it were so easy to be sued for telling a patient that??
THANK YOU to everyone who has been kind and helpful (Elizabeth, they said they should have results Friday and I could even call Thursday afternoon!)... I honestly am NOT an attention whore (in fact on other forums I've been on, related to my profession and hobbies, I've told off an attention whore or two) but when I'm accused of things, I feel like I have to keep explaining myself... why don't we all just let this thread fall into oblivion?? Anyway... thank you again, girls.
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That's great to get the results so quickly! I hope for the best!!! BTW -- I've been on Effexor for years, pre-BC and it has really helped me deal with stuff. I'm all for meds helping to ease the stress.
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Crunchy you should not be naming doctors here..Especially if you are disparaging them as you have Dr. Richard Fine, whoever he is......I couldn't find him in my insurance book and I have every doctor in the Metro Atlanata area in it.....an you ploease tell me what hospital/center he is affiliated with?.......How can a respectble surgeon tell you you have cancer BEFORE a biopsy?.....Even my breast surgeon said she could no tsay 100% for sure I had bc...And my sister's surgeon told her the same thing.....They both told us no self respecting surgeon would EVER tell a they have cancer without a biopsy FIRST!.....I wish you well and hope and pray you have B9 results........Then you can put this all behind you ...BTW is Dr Isreal a he or a she at one point you say he and at another you call Dr I as you call her/him her.........And how in the world could a doctor say you could die form bc when they don't even know what kind or even IF you really have bc???......I know several very respectable breast specialists and oncologists in the Atlanta area and not one of them would write such a report for fear of legal action against them........
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Dr Richard Fine has been practicing in the Atlanta area for many, many years, hollyann. I've been to him myself. He is one of the most prominent surgeons in the area - his practice is in Marietta.
Oncological breast surgeons and radiologists can often tell it's cancer just by looking at a film if the mass is large and full of large, prominent spiculations. The sonogram confirms the presence and nature of the spiculations, and Julia has a prominent, highly palpable lump they can feel. My surgical oncologist taught me how "the bad stuff" feels and it is quite different from a benign mass.
They have to get a biopsy for the histology and treatment plan, but there are instances where they are certain it's cancer before the biopsy. I believe they told Cruncy outright that it was cancerous prior to biopsy because she was so resistent about getting the biopsy unless they did it her way, which they could not do responsibly. You don't excise a large mass before learning more about the nature of the beast - it's too risky and it can cause metastises because of the spicules.
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I really do wish all you amateur Nancy Drews would get over yourselves and stop investigating Crunchy as though she's a criminal or something. Don't you have anything better to do?
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Desdeoma, have you heard how Julia did today? She has been in my thoughts....
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Haven't heard from Julia today, barbe. She said the earliest she can get her results is after 2:00 PM tomorrow, so I imagine it has been a highly stressful day for her. She needs all this grilling like a hole in the head.
In case you didn't see the posts in the alternative forum, her biopsy went just fine yesterday and she didn't experience any pain to speak of. She said the doctor and his assistant were excellent - I had my own biopsy at the same facility 8 years ago, and they're extremely good there.
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desdemona that is all well and good but she should not be disparaging a very good doctor.......Or am I wrong in assuming that she didn't say anything wrong/..... Also no self respecting oncologist or surgeon of any ilk would say it is cancer without a biopsy.........It is ethically wrong.......
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Hollyann honey, give it a rest. We have moved on to a new thread started by Otter called Thinking of Julia/Crunchy or something similar. You may not recognize it because it is full of support and kindness and understanding. Your responses here are to yesterdays flubs, let it go.
Nico
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Hollyann is perfectly entitled to voice her opinion-she is only saying what the vast majority of us are thinking anyway. Why are you so keen to stifle opinions and concerns which voice a different opinion to your own? A few of you have decided that you believe crunchy-and that is your perogative. But many people don't, and are equally entitled to voice their concerns. Personally I won't be duped into posting any more-but I will help defend people who are unfairly accused -in the same way that you will jump to the defense of a person whom you feel has been unfairly treated. Holly is endlessly supportive to genuine cancer sufferers-enough said.
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Desdemona,
I'd be really careful if I were you. Seems to be you and Crunchy are both basically accusing Dr. Fine of medical malpractice, and he'd likely be well within his rights to claim slander and/or defamation of character.
With regards to doctors "knowing" it's cancer, maybe so but they're not going to open themselves up to malpractice lawsuits by telling a patient they have cancer before definitive diagnosis with biopsy even if they're 99% sure it is malignant. In my case, I'm quite sure they all "knew" it was cancer - my lump was 5 cm huge, very palpable right under my skin, and had all the classic imaging signs of malignancy. But none of the 7 or 8 professionals (doctors, radiologists, mammographers, sonographers, etc) ever told me I definitely had cancer. Sure, they told me it was a very high probability, but never said for sure it was cancer until they had specific pathological reports to confirm it.
Of course an irresponsible and unethical doctor may have said it, but if that's the case for Dr. Fine, I think Crunchy has every right and responsibility to sue him to the fullest extent of the law!
I'm hoping with everything I have that Crunchy gets benign results, and I'll celebrate the news if she does, and support her if, heaven forbid, she does have cancer.
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Dr Richard Fine has been practicing in the Atlanta area for many, many years, hollyann. I've been to him myself. He is one of the most prominent surgeons in the area - his practice is in Marietta.
Oncological breast surgeons and radiologists can often tell it's cancer just by looking at a film if the mass is large and full of large, prominent spiculations. The sonogram confirms the presence and nature of the spiculations, and Julia has a prominent, highly palpable lump they can feel. My surgical oncologist taught me how "the bad stuff" feels and it is quite different from a benign mass.
They have to get a biopsy for the histology and treatment plan, but there are instances where they are certain it's cancer before the biopsy. I believe they told Cruncy outright that it was cancerous prior to biopsy because she was so resistent about getting the biopsy unless they did it her way, which they could not do responsibly. You don't excise a large mass before learning more about the nature of the beast - it's too risky and it can cause metastises because of the spicules.
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Nico, butt out!.....I have every rigth to my opinion and no self respecting doctor will ever tell a patient oiut right they have breast cancer and by the way there is NO WAY to tell if a lump is the BAD kind or not..........I go to Breast Cancer Specialists of Georgia and they are all highly highly repsectable doctors and not one of them not one will tell a patient they can tell the difference.......
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"Hollyann is perfectly entitled to voice her opinion" And so is ElaineD. Me, I can "butt out"".
ROFL!!!!!!!!!! You are both on "ignore" for me, which is where you belong.
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Perhaps I should call Dr Fine and let him know about his name getting slandered?
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I hate to tell you this but it is NOT medical malpractice to tell a patient she has breast cancer before biopsy. You women seem to think you "have the right" to interrogate, post-stalk, attack, mock, and villify Crunchy and you're being just plain damn mean as all holy hell. Why in heaven's name would ever think it's appropriate to act this way toward a sister who is suffering through the diagnostic process? Why? That is NOT the purpose of these boards and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
I have talked to Cruncy on the phone since we live in the same area and I could immediately tell she was on the up and up.
hollyann - you are EXTREMELY ignorant saying there is no way to tell if a lump is the bad kind or not. Your fantastic doctors haven't bothered to educate you the way they should if that's what you think. A suspicious lump is going to be fixed rather than movable, lumpy and hard with no smoothness, and very asymmetrical. My breast surgeon taught me that so I could tell myself if something is suspicious when I do a self-exam. I also talked extensively to all of the radiologists who looked at my films when I was diagnosed. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, MISSY!
And none of you have "the right" to express your opinions here if you're villifying someone and victimizing them, which is exactly what you're doing. Try doing something constructive with your time instead of doing ridiculous things like researching your personal list of doctors in the area and implying that Crunchy is a liar just because you don't happen to have that doctor's name on the list.
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Perhaps I should call Dr Fine and let him know about his name getting slandered?
Boy oh boy - with every post you make you show your true colors more and more. Grow up!
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Again, 2tzus, this was very irresponsible of the radiologist and the PCP......What if you had gone through all that terror and pain jsut to find out you were really B9?.......I think I would have gone ballistic and sued the you know what out both of them....I am not sure but I think HIPPA does not allow any diagnosis definitively without biopsy....I COULD be wrong..I will have to ask my friend who is a co author of the HIPPA law..........
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desdemona, YOU grow up!.....Defamation of character is definitely NOT a great thing when i comes to docs.........
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Laughing my ass off right now - hollyann is going to call Dr. Fine and report that Cruncypoodlemama and Desdemona222b are slandering him on Breastcancer.org.
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