Vitamin C infusion....I need your help!

rpailleret

Hi Everyone,

Thank you so much for checking in!! I went to Sloan and the Onc. said that my cancer was still there since 2006...it did not go away. She asked me if My previous dr. shut off my ovaries (he did not) She gave me a shot (each month) She is going to continue the Tamoxfin (although she said if I would have seen her earlier she would have started with chemo first) She will continue the zometa (tuesday) Tomorrow I have to return for EKG. I will have a liver biopsy in a few weeks.

The only problem I had with her is she wants me to stop all my suppliments (she said it was bad for my liver) She was a little upset I was getting vit. C infusions, she said it feeds the breast cancer cells.

I talked about organic with her and sugar that feeds cancer...she was not on board with this. She said I could have dessert and the only organic I should eat was chicken. Now I have read over and over that sugar feeds cancer....

It is so confusing...Do I take the alternative route or this one??

I really need some adivce here.

Hugs......

Rachel                   Stage 4 mets to liver and bones

dlb823

Hi, Rachel ~  I think you have to do what you believe in your heart is right for your body.  I know sometimes it's difficult and confusing to even get to that self-knowing place when you are bombarded with conflicting opinions from knowlegeable sources.  But, we are not all alike -- and what works for me may not work for you, and that is one of the basic problems with traditional medicine -- they view everyone as the same.

I've taken a high-quality, sustained release Vitamin C supplement for 30+ years.  Towards the end of my chemo, I read that Vitamin C may prevent the chemo from working as well, so I stopped it -- and promptly came down with near-pneumonia that I couldn't shake for many weeks.  I still don't know which was worse -- taking C with chemo, or how sick I got when I got off of it.

I can see maybe not wanting you on massive doses of C (like infusions) during chemo.  But I'm not sure about C "feeding" cancer.  Do you have a naturopathic doctor?   Any doctor obviously has to know your specific hx, dx & supplement regimen to advise you, but I would be really curious what a naturopathic or integrative doctor who is well-versed in bc would advise you to do, and why.      Deanna     

idaho

Get a second opinion.   Tami

rpailleret

This is what troubles me I am not on Chemo right now...I am on tamofxin and zometa. My Onc. made me promise I would stop my Vit. C.....She believes that the tamoxfin is what is making me feel better...I believe it is the Vit. C.... Family and Friends said I looked great and I have had so much energy since the Vit. C. I did not take the Vit. C this week so we will see.

very confusing...

Thank you for all your feedback!

dlb823

Rachel ~  Here are some links I pulled up for you ~

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070910132848.htm

http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyOncology/OtherCancers/2938

http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyOncology/OtherCancers/2938

As you know, science is constantly evolving, and these studies/reports, which are from 2005, 2006 & 2007 may be outdated.  I don't know.  But perhaps you could show them to your onc @ MSK and ask what newer or better info she might have that would contradict this?   I would ask to see the published study(ies) re. vitamin C "feeding" cancer.   

And as far as sugar not feeding cancer, do you have a copy of Patrick Quillan's book, Beating Cancer With Nutrition?  He's a PhD, among other things, and has a whole chapter devoted to the sugar-insulin-cancer connection.  Also, sugar makes us fat, which in turn creates more estrogen to try to get rid of (assuming you're ER+), so to downplay the danger of sugar consumption seems odd to me.   By the way, UCLA, where I've been treated, says we should eat as much organic as we can afford -- so definitely a little difference of opinion there.     Deanna

deni63

rpailleret - you do have to follow your heart and go in the direction that feels right for you. I can tell you that I do Vit C infusions and go to a center that treats many cancer patients with Vit C and other vitamin infusions. There are many studies that will show (such as the ones Deanna pulled) that vitamin C kills cancer cells. And, it does not feed cancer. In fact, there are studies that show that if taken with chemo, IV C enhances the treatment and reduces chemo's side effects.

I too went to Sloan and my experience there was that they have one "standard of care" and everyone they treat is treated to that standard. They are skilled surgeons and their doctors do a lot of research but not relating to nutrition. I had a similiar experience with my surgeon at Sloan. When I told her that I changed my diet and was doing IV C, she discouraged it, but did not know anything about it. She admitted that there is a link between breast cancers and nutrition but did not recommend that I change my diet. The focus for them is treating the disease to the same standard of care for all. And, doctors are afraid of being sued if they don't offer the "standard of care"! They don't look at possible causes or prevention of recurrence.

I would highly recommend that you see a naturopath who works with cancer patients before you make your final decision. Weigh all of your options and then make an informed decision about the best path to take. Where do you live?

rpailleret

I live in Linwood Nj(south jersey) I found it odd as well when I questioned her about sugar. I thought maybe the reason was that I was stage 4 and she felt I should eat what I would like. She did say in moderation....but...I did read the anti cancer book and wished I had read it 3 years ago. It is really scary when the top hospital in US tells you organic is ok if you like, sugar does not feed cancer and have a piece of cake or a glass of wine.

As for the book you recommended I will pick it up today.

Hugs,

Rachel

deni63

Rachel,

I live in NJ too and the center I go to is right in NY state. If you PM me, I will give you the information if you are interested.

Best of Luck,

Deni

rpailleret

I will

Thanks Deni

rpailleret

Does anyone have any information regarding the Issels Treatment Center in Mexico? I have to opportunity to go.....It is very expensive and I want to make sure once again that I have made the right decision.

I would love to talk to anyone who has information on this.

anondenet

She may be well-meaning but your doc has zero information on sugar feeding cancer cells. It wasn't studied in oncology.

There is a very clear reason why cancer cells gobble sugar way faster than normal cells. One kind of cell is aerobic and the other is anaerobic. You don't need to know what this means. You only have to know you are on the right track with the IV C. You're taking a lot of D3 too, right? Like a sh*tload?

Follow Deanna's links. We need to get all these links annotated and put in one place.

Yoo-hoo, Vivre, honey, we can't wait for your website.

rpailleret

anomdenet,

MSK onc asked me to stop all my supplement!! She went on to say this would further damage my liver. I have a liver biopsy scheduled in a few weeks. I have some pain on the right side(it come and goes) So I stopped my supplements, stopped the vit. C (for now) and I feel horriable.

So all your imput is really helping me! I thought I did a lot of research on this, but I need to continue.

Hugs,

Rachel

SusieMTN

rpailleret - I was also told by my oncologist to not take large dose's of antioxidants including one that is a grape seed pine bark combo, which I complied with, however I am in the process of reading a book that might assist you in your decision. "Life Over Cancer" by Keith I Block, M. D. he does not support the concept that antioxidants should not be taken, but you should read his book and get all the data from the horses mouth if you will. Dr Block is an Integrative Oncologist, in my humble opinion is the best of both worlds, standard oncology with supplements that support and help your body battle Cancer.  There is a center in Evanston IL, you might be able to speak to them, here is the web address: http://www.blockmd.com/  Feel free to PM if you need to!  Good luck!  Wishing you success in you battle with cancer!

SusieMTN

rpailleret - I was also told by my oncologist to not take large dose's of antioxidants including one that is a grape seed pine bark combo, which I complied with, however I am in the process of reading a book that might assist you in your decision. "Life Over Cancer" by Keith I Block, M. D. he does not support the concept that antioxidants should not be taken, but you should read his book and get all the data from the horses mouth if you will. Dr Block is an Integrative Oncologist, in my humble opinion is the best of both worlds, standard oncology with supplements that support and help your body battle Cancer.  There is a center in Evanston IL, you might be able to speak to them, here is the web address: http://www.blockmd.com/  Feel free to PM if you need to!  Good luck!  Wishing you success in you battle with cancer!

SusieMTN

Just found this on Dr Blocks website on antioxidants:

http://www.blockmd.com/AntioxidantStudy.pdf 

althea

rachel, I just bumped up a thread I started after reading Ray Strand's book on nutritional medicine.  You might find it pertinent to your situation and give you encouragement to continue looking for a doctor more suited to your needs.  Most mainstream doctors receive little, if ANY, training on nutritional medicine.  They're trained how to detect disease and then manage it with pharmaceuticals. I didn't even take supplements back when I received treatments, so it was a nonissue for me.  If I had an oncologist poo poo my desire to take supplements today, I'd be looking elsewhere. 

Options are out there.  You'll need to be diligent, though, to go outside the standard protocol.   fwiw, you might want to ask that doctor if she's required to make the recommendations she proposes.  I'd guess that she's quoting standard protocol.  Doctors are pulled in a lot of directions and may not be free to say what they really believe if it differs from 'protocol.' 

rpailleret

Thank you so much. I plan to fight hard this time. The first time around I did very little research, I put my life in my onc. hands. I trusted everything they said because they were the experts. I have a lot of reading and researching to do.

Hugs!!!

Rachel

Husband11

Anyone have any thoughts on the use of Vit C intravenous to help prevent recurrance, done after all other treatments are finished?  How much Vit C and how often?

vivre

Rachel-there are some great links here from my alternative buddies. I think the main thing you need to do is find a new onc. Obviously this one is not on the same page with you and you need to have someone whom you are comfortable with. The Block center would be a good choice. cancertutor.org has links to lots of alternatives. In the meantime, while you are trying to make your decisions, go on a macrobiotic diet-no sugar, caffeine, gluten, dairy, etc. Just lots of fruits and veggies. If you do not have a naturapath, pm me and I will give you his number. He does do phone consults and has some very pure supplements, including a mineral multi. Minerals are really important to get all the pistons firing. I would also load up on the C and D, which are anticancer, and take several tabs of curcumin a day, which has proven to shrink tumors. At least this will help give you peace of mind and bide some time while you are looking for a good doctor. Also, get out and walk off the anxiety. It is fall, the most beautiful season. Enjoy it! De stressing is so important! We are with you! And kudos for taking time this bout to research. I did not do that the first time and have regretted it. We all learn from our mistakes.

deni63

TImothy - I use IV C as part of my treatment plan. Other than surgery, I did no other treatments. But, there are plenty of folks who go to the center I go to that have. I have heard many stories of success from people I meet there. You need to find a good ND who can administer them and guide you through dosages etc.

LJ13-2

"She may be well-meaning but your doc has zero information on sugar feeding cancer cells. It wasn't studied in oncology.

There is a very clear reason why cancer cells gobble sugar way faster than normal cells. One kind of cell is aerobic and the other is anaerobic. You don't need to know what this means..."

Why don't you tell us what it means then? Or should we just take your word that it is somehow good?

Which human cells are aerobic and which are anaerobic? What happens when oxygen reaches the anaerobic ones? What does ANY of that have to do with Vitamin C?

Why are you really here, Anomdenet? Your post is absolute gibberish.

Show us the documentation that cancer cells "gobble sugar" way faster than regular cells.

What does eating sucrose have to do with the glucose that cells use for energy?

motheroffoursons

In bacteria, some cells need oxygen (aerobic) and some cells do not need oxygen and are even destroyed by oxygen (anaerobic).

In multicullular organisms such as humans, aerobic refers to the way a cell metabolizes sugars.  If you do not have enough oxygen, the body switches to anaerobic metabolism (fermentation).  If you feel sore the day after exercising a lot, this is the reason.  The body used an alternative pathway for energy producing lactic acid, and the body needs to clean out the waste products.

In aerobic respiration, the glucose in the bloodstream and cells combines with oxygen to transfer energy to ADP, producing ATP, the energy carriers in the cell.

In humans, aerobic and anaerobic do not refer to different kinds of cells, but the pathway a cell uses dependent upon its oxygen supply and energy needs.  Cells can switch between the two metabolic pathways, aerobic and anaerobic..

All this information can be found in any good college biology text.

rpailleret

Thank You!!!!

seaofhope

I thought all carbohydrates turn into sugar that your body can use.  So would this mean a no-carb diet in order to starve the cancer of its sugar fix?  Near impossible to live this way.  Everything in moderation - sugar and alcohol included.

deni63

I think the game changes a little bit when you have cancer. Everything in moderation may not be the way to go. You really need to make major changes to impact your chance for recurrence. I truly believe that there are things that you just have to cut out if you want to give yourself your best shot.

anondenet

< 

With all due respect: 

I have no idea what that phrase, "everything in moderation," means. In my experience the phrase is only used to stop conversation without offering any suggestion.

Why would anybody want to moderately address their cancer?

>

LJ13-2

Sea of hope, you cannot stop the process of conversion to glucose. If you cease intake of all carbs, you're just denying your body essential nutrition. This would mean no grains, no fruits, no vegetables. It's not "near impossible" to live this way. It IS impossible.

The only reason to not eat sugar is that it is empty calories. There is no benefit to the cancer patient or survivor, except in relation to keeping weight within normal limits, and keeping the high glycemic load reasonable.

Anomdenet, no one is talking about addressing cancer in moderation. They're talking about taking sugar in moderation. Sugar intake has no effect on cancer. 

Motheroffour, as usual, an excellent post. Thank you.

seaofhope

LJ13-2, that is precisely my point - that you can not eliminate all carbohydrates from your diet without having an adverse impact on your health, not to mention the quality of your life.  For me, eating is a huge enjoyment in my life.  I am at a healthy weight, exercise (even through this intense chemo regimen), and do not want to obsess about food after this chemo is done in a year. I understand though how it can give people comfort to proactively control their cancer by eliminating certain foods.  At least its something they can control with this dreadful disease.  It's just that all food except proteins and fats turns into glucose so it is impossible to eliminate glucose from your diet.  I think I read excess protein turns into glucose and fat. So how would you eat with this diet?  I am open minded, but skeptical.

deni63

You can definitely remove white, refined, processed sugars and foods from your diet. These are the worst offenders. White sugar and processed foods actually do feed cancer and if you are fighting the disease, it is truly in your best interest to cut these foods out. There are other things you can eat that do not contain white sugar or flour, etc. It requires modifying your diet and some strict adherence - which probably means cutting out many of the foods we grew up on and are comfortable eating. But these are the same foods that are making us sick. I eat a much healthier diet now and lead a healthier lifestyle. I feel better and look better than ever. I would not go back to my old ways, even if the cancer does not come back. I never realized how badly I felt so often until I cut out these foods and modifed my way of eating.

Husband11

We're way off topic on the vitamin C infusion start.  On the subject of sugar "feeding" cancer, I wonder if this statement, while it may not technically be any more correct than sugars feeding the function of all cells, the recent research suggesting the possibility that insulin impacting drugs like glucophage might reduce recurrance and that women with higher insulin levels have more likelihood of recurrance, might be a backdoor route or mechanism by which refined sugars, resulting in elevated insulin levels, might impact recurrance.  They are currently researching the impact of insulin modifying drugs on recurrance and its the subject of a new clinical trial.  So I wouldn't rule out altogether that sugar might not play a role, despite it not being precise that its "feeds" cancer.  I'm just saying, keep an open mind.

deni63

A couple of very recent articles describing how sugar "feeds" cancer cells. There are dozens more available on google...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090817184539.htm

http://www.naturalnews.com/026979_sugar_cancer_candida.html