The natural health products to avoid

guinol3d

The natural health products to avoid

guinol3d

Hello, it is my first post, but I am permanent reader of this forum.

Yesterday I got this information from my doctor and decided to share it, may be it will help or protect somebody else. I am on 2d week of radiation and will start with Tamoxifen today. I had ER 3+/Pr3+, that is why on my opinion this information is very important.

"There are many natural health products which claim to be of benefit to patients with breast cancer. However, there is very little reliable evidence to support these claims, so deciding whether or not to use them is difficult. If you decide to use natural health products, the following information is intend to help breast cancer patients become aware of which products to avoid.

Some natural health products are promoted for reducing hot flushes and other menopause-like symptoms. These products frequently contain phytoestrogens.  Phytoestrogens are a group of chemicals found in plants which have estrogenic activity. While the way they work is not clearly understood, there is a theoretical risk that phytoestrogens may encourage the growth of some breast cancer cells. Phytoestrogens may also interfere with hormone type medications used to treat breast cancer. These include tamoxifen and the aromatase inhibitors ( anastrozole, lestrozole & exemestane)

Natural health products with known estrogenic activity to avoid for breast cancer patients:

Aletris

Alfalfa

Anise

Beta-sitosterols

Bitter melon

Black Cohosh

Blue Cohosh

Chasteberry

DHEA

Dong Quai

Evening Primrose oil

Ginseng (all types)

Fennel

Flaxseed

Hops

Licorice

Milk thistle

Rasberry Leaf

Red clover

Reveratrol

Scarlet Pimpernel

Soy supplements

Tangeretin

Wild Yam

The table above lists some of the natural health products which are known phytoestrogens. Since this list only contains the more common products and no brand names have been used, you should check for, before taking any natural products."

Guinol3d

danigirlx1

guinol,  

It would be nice to see what your source is for this list?  Also, it is important to remember when a medical doctor tells you there is "no evidence" to show supplement A does blah blah for you, that first of all medical doctors receive less than one semester in nutrition in medical school and that class probably has little information on supplements.  Also, there is a disincentive for research dollars to be granted for the strict protocol research doctors read about in JAMA etc.in ref. to supplements because people can come about those supplements without prescriptions and the control of the pharma indus. and the FDA.  There is a ton of information out there and tons of positive evidence that shows many supplements have the effects people are swearing by.  Many people achieving the same results is pretty effective evidence for many of us.  For one example on your list, my naturopath said to get flax seed every day.  I have read much about flax seed and will follow that advice because I think it is very beneficial to my body in a number of ways.  What I have heard so far on phytoestrogens is that they are positive and beneficial.  We all agree in the alternative area to do what seems best for us.  So def. good luck with your decision and after doing your homework, feel good about it.

 Danette 

rgiuff

I have read many pros about phytoestrogens in relation to breast cancer as well as some cons.  Most of those against using them say that there are no proven studies, so better to be cautious.  However, there are many very healthy foods, such as beans, legumes, many fruits and veggies that are considered phytoestrogenic and I wouldn't dream of cutting them out of my diet.  It's been said that they can do what tamoxifen does, crowd out the bad estrogens by locking onto the estrogen receptors, but being much weaker, do much less harm than say, estradiol.

cakeisgreat

Thanks guinol for posting...I was at Sams club 2 days agao and there was a really great looking fruit "tonic" with blueberries, pomegranate, etc. juices (like 13 different things), but they had extra stuff such as ginseng, ginko balboa, and stevia which I wanted to look into before buying.  I am 100% E+ and even tho' many people think these herbs are no problem, I would rather avoid them and stick to the basic fruits, veges, etc.  I dont have hot flashes, etc (yet?) and never looked into taking that stuff before, so I dont think I want to add it now.  I was just looking for an easy way to get more anti-oxidants .  I think I'll just select another tonic...there were several to choose from.

rgiuff--I am interested which fruits are phytoestrogenic if you know.  I'd like to eat more of them if they do what tomoxifen does!  Or am I confused?  This stuff is all so new to me .  What is estradiol?

Jane_M

Thank you for posting this information.  I knew about the flaxseed and soy, but not about the others.

anondenet

Guinol3d, Thank you for your concern. But there has been ZERO evidence that so-called phytoestrogens promote breast cancer in humans. Besides "phytoestrogens" is a misnomer, implying phytoestrogens behave like body-made estrogens.

Jo, with all respect, it is not about agreeing or disagreeing. The phytoestrogen issue is not a philosophic position like the death penalty where you might agree or disagree based on your beliefs. The phytoestrogen issue has facts attached to it so you need to address evidence for your position, not just opinion. Posting a list of "bad" herbs without any evidence in humans is circulating rumors. A doctor who tells you studies on herbs are connected with the companies that make them is flat out mistaken. If he read the actual studies he would know this.

These myths get started, people latch onto them and post them on the Internet.

Fact: Donq Quai, for example, has been used for thousands of years for breast cancer. There are 350 studies/citations in the National Library of Medicine on this herb.

Hope this helps.

MsBliss

guinol, I understand why you felt the need to post that list, but the list is in error. 

Black Cohosh is not estrogenic, at all.  In fact, at the Simms Mann Integrative Medical Center at UCLA, a very distinguished medical center to which many oncologists refer their patients, they prescribe Black Cohosh in a standardized formula, for menopausal symptoms in breast cancer patients.  

London-Virginia

Simply because a substance may have been used as traditional medecine for all manner of things, does not mean it is either safe, or unsafe, relevant or irrelelevant.

 For the entirety of my adult life I have eaten organically, used natural medecines for many things, and am totally positive about the benefits for certain things of a range of complementary medecines.  None of this is new to me and lots of others in any way.

 However, if I way up the balance between something maybe not a great idea any more for me, then I feel perfectly fine about not going on using that supplement.  So for instance, I now don't use flax oil, and I avoid soy and soy products.  There are other things but I use this example.

It is the right of anyone to choose what they want to do in terms of treatments of any sort.

For those of us that have used alternatives for a lifetime, it may be that this helped us be in good general shape when we unfortunately discovered that we have cancer.

At times I feel uncomfortable with the fervour of those new to alternatives.  IF others are concerned that some things may not be appropriate to them as individuals right now, then respect those view and feelings.

I happen to be something of a literary expert on the medecines of the ancient Greeks, and the philosophy surrounding their  expertise.   There are some things that have carried through into more modern medecine, which is a lovely thought and not particularly surprising.

 But just because something is ancient and charming does not mean to say it is in some magical fashion better/more noble/more efficacious and actually morally superior to something else.

And no, it is not tested.

So, overall, if an individual felt "hmm, unfortunately I cannot get to the bottom of whether this thing is ok for me just now, so I'll leave it out of my planning"  that would seem to be thoroughly sensible.

And, they may just be nearly as intelligent as the rest of the population and not so feeble minded that they merely do anything and everything that a conventional doctor tells them.

IF it makes some people happy to think the rest of us are ignorant fools that  worship drug companies and are too dull to have knowledge of the use of say, black cohosh, well bully for you.

I think I will just continue to be an open minded seeker of health and happyness in my own unique way.

.

cakeisgreat

Hiya London-Virginia!  I was wondering why you dont use flax oil anymore?

London-Virginia

Hi Cake!  (hmmm, maybe I could change to icecreamisgood...!)

At the present moment, I wnat a sort of baseline clean slate for the chemo treatment.  Initially, I had thought that I would probably go supplement full tilt to aid my natural defenses etc.

What gave me pause for thought is that I really have been using supplements and organic food all my life, and it hasn't worked to fend off this disease.  That is not why I did it, but anyway, it hasn't.  What it may have done however, is provide me with a good baseline level of health in general terms.

When I started looking into whether I would take D3 just now, it became apparent that actually, vits and supllements are rather stronger than I had realised and can have a more pwerful effect.  As an example, I stopped smoking 2 years ago but I didn't cut down on my Vit C intake (as you know, smoking destroys Vit C in the body).  This would have been a good moment to do a sort of review of these things anyway, but I also thought, well, wait a second here - maybe this is just a moment not to take much in the way of supplements or anything.  My exception to that is I am taking Acidophilus to try to retain any sort of bowel flora!  Alongside gallons of yoghurt.

For the soy and also flax oil,  I read a lot of different articles and reports and made a value judgement that soy is a no- no (however, it is in a lot of products.  So I reckon if I just watch labels carefully and don't genreally use it, that is good enough and the odd bit in something here or there doesn't matter).  I had similar misgivings about flax seed/oil.

I want to go back over everything and review where I want to go post chemo.  Anyway you look at it, I will need bone enhancing things as I will be going back onto FEmara.

My only point is by all means travel with an open mind, and if you feel confident after researching things that you want to either do a thing, or not do a thing, that  is great.  I simply feel that I no more trust a website which happens to look green and organic and so forth, than I do any other website selling a product to the pu8blic.  Guess what chaps, all of these people are making money, regardless whether they are a conventional  food giant, or the alternative sector.

Like most people I have used Evening Primrose, Black Cohosh and all those good things in the past.  I may do again.  But they are a product that is sold. 

 I have observed on this site that it can almost be a heresy to question some things.  And also, there is quite a lot of cyber bullying top be found.

People can do whatever they wish, and it is understandeable when people are enthusiastic about new things they are trying.  For instance, I proclaim loudly every chance I get that Cold Cap treatment does work and I am not loosing my hair!!  So that's my current favourite.  I don't understand why someone would choose not to do it if they have the changce, but ultimately, that is their choice.

IT is great to share info and I have learned tons from this Board, so it is very good to share.

Note:  Conventional Doctors are not always right.  (and they are certainly often not polite). 

 But:  they are not always wrong.

deni63

Hi Virginia, I too was always a fairly good eater and am the last person anyone thought would get breast cancer, and yet I did. When I look back, I do see that there are things that I was doing / eating that were not the healthiest. I have cleaned up my diet considerably and now am working with a naturopath with supplementing. I wish I could pinpoint what caused this, it would make it so much easier to prevent a recurrence and take the anxiety about having one out of my life - out of all of our lives! Were you a heavy smoker? Could that have something to do with how you developed cancer? I think a good mix of alternative and conventional medicine is key - especially finding doctors who we feel comfortable with to guide us through this mess!!

London-Virginia

Hello Deni - nice to meet you.

You know what - I see far too many posts on this site where women seem to think they should have been absolutely, twenty thousand percent perfect!

Neither you nor I nor anyone else is going to pinpoint what gave us cancer.  It is just a disease. 

Until such time as science finds various causes for breast cancer (in our particular instance) then we won't know why we got it.  It may well be just an inherent part of human life - cancer has been mentioned in ancient texts, so obviously it has always been around.  It seems as if  some on/off switch turns on for some reason, and then things stat going wrong.  Obviously for some types of cancer, there are direct environmental causes (for instance, asbestos related cancer).

I have no sense of "why me".  I don't blame myself, or somebody else.  Or anything elwse actually.  I have no desire to find some "new me".  I like the life I lead and I am continuing to lead it pretty much the same as ever.  I have never been ill before, never been in a hospital to stay, no experience of anaesthesia etc etc etc.   Never been so pill dependent in my life!  So, no new me required thanks, don't know what that is supposed to achieve.

My dressings nurse said that peoploe who seem to find it hard to accept what is happening are often peoplke that are no content with what they have done in life.  That must be an awful feeling.

There are no causal links between smoking and breast cancer.  I stopped because I thought I should and as one matures, one must consider heart health etc.  I couldn't care less that I smoked, or for that matter did any of the other ill advised, entertaining and fun things I have done in my life.  I have not lived my life fearing some weird divine intervention as some type of punishment for some infraction of an invisible rule, and I am definitely not starting to do so now.

I don't need to make any dietary adjustments although I must say, I mustn't go on eating ice cream at this speed!  It is my chemo treat to myself.  Next week I hope to be back in the gym as exercise is key to us all.  In any event, I always do a minimum of 10k steps per day.  For those of you not yet into this - just builo up slowly; don't get put off by the big figure.  Start off with 1000 steps if you want to, but do start!!

As for soy, I don't usually eat it much anyway - it is not really a British grown food so we probably have less of it here anyway.  I don't usually buy it from overseas unless I am absolutely sure it is not GMO soy.  We don't allow that to be grown here, and I won't eat GMOs.  Annoyingly though, even in whey protein, there is bloody soy.  I habve gone off it on principle because it just seems like food giants stuff soy into everything you can think of.  And this is not the same sort of soy food products eaten in Japan.

I actually look particulalry healthy at the moment which is a bit weird when you are in the middle of chemo.  The docs were all pretty pleased with my overall health when they did all the bloodwork.

Anyway, I wish you all good fortune and hapiness and certainly, once the chemo is done I will back into deciding what, if any, suppplements I want to use. warm hugs -

cakeisgreat

Hiya, Virginia! Hi Deni63!

Great advice, thanks for all the input!  (PS--I love cake...and ice cream, yummy! and I'm going to keep eating it because I figure if I'm going to die earlier than other folks who dont have bc...I'm going out with JOY, darn it!!! )

I am definitely getting the sense that there are sooooo many people who eat healthy and maintain a good weight yet still get bc. It is great to take care of ourselves, and do everything we can to be healthy, so I'll keep trying.  When I asked my onc "why," she said with a smile...because you have breasts!  

deni63

You guys have a great additude! And, that his a huge part of this battle. I am no where near pity-me-fever, but what I am is scared and I have moments when I am terrified - but they are only about 10% of the time, the rest of the time I am just living my life and enjoying every minute. I suppose the fear has a lot to do with my kids. I want to be here for them while they are growing up, I want to be at their weddings, I want to be a grandmother. I just have to make sure that I am!  It's funny because I am more content in my life now than I ever was before. I got married to my second husband two years ago and I couldn't have dreamed for a better relationship. I am glad to be a part of this board. There is so much information here and I have learned so much. It is an incredible resource for info and support. Have a great weekend on the other side of the pond!

London-Virginia

Hi Deni and Cake!

I think overall that no matter how healthy we may have been in our habits, it is no good reason to be smug.  (even though I am.....!)      But waht I really do think, is that there can be a load of contributing factors to a health breakdown, sodding cancer is something to do with some trigger thing turning on a switch.             So, we aren't responsible, it isn't our fault or anyone's fault.  We wish it were in a way because then we might have some control.  And the nub of it is, we don't have much at all.

Well of course I get those awful terror moments too.  Less so just at the moment.  Being node positive suddenly catapulted me into a more negative area on prognosis etc on Adjuventonline.  I find it copnfusing because I have rad very encouraging stuff on Femara for me, .

I well understand your desire to see your children grow and to carry on with your lovely family.  The great thing about beiung a mature adult (for me) is that I have finally got the hang of how to live my life in a happy and satisfying way.  There is a particular line of interst I have which  I need time to develop more, to understand better.  I want to write about it.  But I am not yet ready.  I need the time to get deeper into this thing.  There are things I want to write about and communicate, but I need more depth to make it work.

The sense of joy I have in my life isn't really quite about living each day to the full.  Somehow it is more gentle than that .  Oddly, before my DX and with all sorts of dramas going on in my life this year, nevertheless I felt very good and happy.

I believe it was about reaching a point where I absolutely asserted my position in life and wouldn't involve myself with things that won't support that.   Then came the DX. (May 9th).  Phew.

My emotions have been much more close to the surface since then.  And I find it is much better for me.  I have encountered kindness from every place where I needed it.  And being on this site affords one the opportunity of trying to give a little bit of a helping hand where one can, as you know ladies.

Lovely to meet you both - lets keep in touch -

xxxxxxx

CapeBretongirl

Hi everyone.  Virginia,  have you ever stop to ponder, that your healthy choices in the past, may be the explanation as to why you didn't get bc years earlier. And for that matter, conceivably, those same healthy choices have decreased the severity of your dx.

I was a vegan for 20 years, and if it wasn't organic, I didn't touch it. I have had bc three times. My Mom & Sister both passed away within one year of being diagnosed with bc. Neither one of them made very healthy choices. I think that if I had made the same unhealthy choices that they did, I would have died years ago.

Unfortunately, this latest time, test results were misfiled. For almost a year, obliviously to me, invasive cancer, raced unhindered within my body. If the bc was caught earlier, it in all probability, would have been in the early stages.

On my bottle of Black Cohosh there is a warning not to take if you have or have had bc. It was given to me for hot flashes. I've decided not to take it.    Angel

London-Virginia

Dear YMB - I hope my health eating etc has helped me out, but of course one cannot tell.    But you do raise an interesting point and it is something that I will think through.  In any event, I just like the food I eat and don't feel deprived by being in almost total ignorance of (for example) of macdonalds!!  I am so sorry that you suffered two heavy blows in such a short time with your mother and sister.  I am also very sdad for you about the misfiled test results; that is indeed a terrible thing.  I wish you all good luck  in your journey.

 Many thanks for the Black Cohosh tip - I will check on a bottle that I still have - I don't think it states that though.

I do think that good food makes my general health a lot better than it might be, so maybe it will help me remain stable  at any rate.

warm hugs to you Angel -      xxxxxxxx

deni63

Hi YMB - Wow! They misfiled your results. That sounds criminal. How can they misfile a cancer result for an entire year and then suddenly find it and -- OPPS! That is insane. What is your prognosis now? Has it metastisized? How are you treating it? That makes me so angry for you. Very best of luck with your battle.

Deni

Mazy1959

Hi Ladies,

I wanted to toss my 2 cents in on the black cohosh discussion.   My onc is open to using natural health products with her approval. She said according to a natural substance site the cancer center uses, Black Cohosh is not to be taken by ER positive ladies and preferrably not by anyone who has had breast cancer. The reason that its a no no for ER neg ladies is in the event cancer would come back and the new tumor is ER positive. She said that although Black Cohosh didn't directly cause it to come back ...if it comes back it can cause the cancer to spread fast and wild if the tumor is ER pos.

Just sharing my onc's knowledge...not looking for a fuss....I just think we should be informed.

Hugs, Mazy