Red meat bad?

Husband11

My wife is currently in the midst of chemo.  Just started her second treatment with FEC.  A nurse at the hospital told her not to eat red meat.  The only red meat we eat is venison (deer) that I personally harvested.  I can tell you that it is free of articial hormones, antibiotics and other man made contaminents that are fed to livestock.  It is also very low in fat.  The other meats, like chicken and pork, I know are fed diets chock full of antibiotics and lord knows what else.  I've been to these farms, its like a science experiment what they feed them to get them to grown quick and stay healthy under cramped conditions.

 Is the nurse talking out of her hat or is there some scientific reason why my wife should not have red meat a couple of times a week?  I see it as a quality source of protein and easily absorbed iron to keep her body healthy during chemo.  Is it science fact, or something the nurse read in Chatelaine magazine that red meat is to be avoided?

idaho

Timothy- you should ask the Doctor why that is recommended?  Probably is due to the high amounts of hormones given to beef, but as we know venison does not have that.  I am a breast cancer survivor and ate venison a lot and also  our home grown beef. (we know what we feed him), anyway, never hurts to ask.  Good luck- Tami

Deb-from-Ohio

Since my blood counts keep going down during chemo, I was told to eat alot of protein...I eat alot of steak (yes from the grocery), alot of eggs (but these are from a farm, country eggs)...forget the cholesterol, if it will keep me feeling better and my counts up, then so be it.............

Deb

Husband11

The Doctor never recommended the avoidance of red meat.  It was the nurse.  I'll ask the Oncologist next time I see him.  I just hate to see her avoid a good source of protein and iron.  When your appetite isn't good, its probably a good idea to eat foods that are more nutritionally dense.

BTW, I'm not saying farm grown meats are all unhealthy, I see cattle at my relatives that graze on the fields and eat grains and grasses collected from the fields, but I also know relatives that have hog raising operations that rely upon strict quarantine of animals, lots of antibiotics and plenty of visits from the veteranarian to reduce mortality. It strikes me as highly unnatural that they require so much care and that the mere mixing of animals could cause them to die of infectious disease.  Something's not right when that's the way animals are grown.

Everything in moderation, but I'd just like to know if there is some science behind such a notion, or whether its misguided.

flannelette

Perhaps the nurse was thinking that red meats have too much fat? to put it in a nutshell, to prevent reocurrence of bc, being thinner is better than being fatter, because fat stores estrogen, and bc is estrogen-driven.   There is also the hormone thing, as already pointed out - ie farm animals being fed growth hormones. But venison is so low in fat, and no growth hormones - and so delicious - I'd be eating it twice a week if I could get my hands on it! I certainly would prefer it to any meat bought at the grocery store.

I did find that eating a lot of meat - or a lot of anything at once - gave me huge gastric distress during chemo. I'd feel like I swallowed a lead ball.

I've had a mastectomy, 6 tx chemo (FEC) and finished rads, am stating on an exercise program at the Y, need to lose weight, and my dr. advised a protein-rich diet. I'm thinking of switching to bison and pasture-raised lamb, both raised by farmer friends. Some people think no meat is the way to go - but I wouldn't want to do it.

Husband11

It could be the fat as you say Souad, as most equate red meat with beef.  I had a chance to buy a whole bison for $400 (as in they point to an animal in the field and say, there, that one's yours) but that would have been taking on a momentous task and there's only so much room in our freezer!!!!

AccidentalTourist

There is a theory that all meat is making our bodies acidic which provides favourable conditions for cancers.  Jane Plant of 'Your life in your hands' recommends that no meat is eaten while cancer is actively present and recommends only organic meat (in small quantities) once one is given an all clear. She is particularly damning of beef and pork because of the hormones and antibiotics they are rutinely given.  But most of all she bans dairy products and related to this ground beef (which according to her comes from dairy cows).  In the beginning I was very disciplined and did not eat any meat for a months but have gradually introduced more and more meat (always organic).  At the time I did miss meat but I have to say felt better and the weight just fell off me (although that may have a lot to do with all the stress at the time).  For me it was not so much craving for meat that made me eat more but having to cook different meals for myself and the rest of the family after a days work.  I would like to find a good balance and eat mostly meat free with occasional treat.

Oneworker

Nurses mean well, but many things they have told me, turn out not to be true when I run them past the oncologist.

I found red meat to be a good protein source when I was on chemo. I try to get organic or grassfed, non-hormone treated, non-antibiotic treated beef.

Venison, absolutely, certainly, no problem.

crazy4carrots

Hi Accidental:

You've mentioned Jane Plant and her book a few times in your posts.  Just wondering about her background and bona fides -- is the book's thesis just her opinion and experiences, or does she provide some concrete proof/illustrations/studies to back up her statements?  Just wondering, before I decide to purchase the book.

Thanks, Linda

AccidentalTourist

Hi Linda, Jane Plant is not a medical doctor but a Chielf Scientist of the British Geological Society and Professor at Imperial College London (both worldwide respected scientific institutions).  The book is based on her own experience of having breast cancer five times (last time with mets).  I read it when I was first diagnosed and, as you can tell, it has left a big impression on me.  At the time I was still dazed after my diagnosis, counting years before my son grows up and wondering whether I will be there for him.  Reading a book by someone who has gone through this five times and is alive and NED many years later instilled hope in me.  It also gave me something practical to do which made me feel less helpless.  Being a scientist she is very good at listing and documenting her arguments for things we can do to minimize our chances of recurrence.  I don't follow everything Jane Plant recommends (some of it simply requires more time than I can master) but try to follow everything I can.  Her book is not without controversy.  For example she recommends soya products and I started eating them for the first time after I was diagnosed with ER+ cancer.  Having read that most oncologists in the USA ban soya I have now stopped buying soya yogurt or tofu but still use miso soup.  Going back to meat she bans all meat while one has an active cancer but, now that she is NED is not a vegetarian herself.  She insists that any meat consumed should be organic and never barbecued (shame), or bought minced and again explains why.  I have also bought her cookery book but was very disappointed to discover that she charges £30 a year for use of her website.  I think she must be making quite a lot of money from her books so that struck me as somewhat greedy especially as a lot of women who need that site might not be earning at present.

crazy4carrots

Thanks AT.

barbe1958

For someone who seems to know a lot about cancer, why did she get it 5 times?

If we can't have meat for dinner, and we're not supposed to have too much carbs, what the heck do we eat? 

AccidentalTourist

According to Jane Plant's book the first four times she just ate what she believed was a healthy diet which included meat and dairy (she only ate yogurts which she thought were good for her).  She only made these changes when she was told that medical science can no longer help her and was given three months to live.  She was involved with some research in rural China and talking to people realized that breast cancer is a very rare illness there.  Out of desperation she started comparing their and our diet and started making changes.  Apparently only six weeks after she stopped eating dairy the lymph nodes on her neck which were the size of a half egg went back to normal.   I cannot vouch for what she says but her being a Professor at Imperial College London probably means that she would be discredited if she was writing a lot of nonsense.  What is difficult to understand is why is this not known and why are oncologist still advising us to eat as normal.  Mine changed the subject when I asked about nutrition.  To answer your question there are a lot of things one can eat (vegetarian diet for those with active cancer, organic meat only for those who don't) but I would be lying if I said I did not miss butter, cheese and generally eating spontaneously without worrying how the meat was reared.  Some days I am better at disciplining myself than others and I do think that we should all decide for ourselves.  I just think that before we decide perhaps we should be given all the facts.

barbe1958

In Canada, they aren't allowed to give hormones to the beef cattle, or chickens. I don't know about the pork though. What is the logic on dairy? Hormones? If our cows don't get hormones, does that mean their milk is okay? I only use milk in tea, or a bit on cereal.

It's all so overwhelming. My tumour was estrogen positive, so soy would have been bad for me. I've always admired the Asian diets as you also didn't see diabetes or obesity much.

My Dad went off red meat for about a year and lost too much weight. He looked very ill. Then a couple years later he got lung cancer and died! Not related of course....

Husband11

Cows milk is going to contain hormones no matter what, because the cow doesn't produce milk naturally unless it is either pregnant or calving, which results in increased hormone levels naturally.  Now whether this has any influence on breast cancer patients is another question.  So is whether the naturally occuring IGF-1 contained in milk can have any influence on women with breast cancer who drink it.  The mainstream scientists say no, its only a drop in the bucket of existing IGF-1 levels in a human.  There's sure a lot that isn't know with any certainty about the influence of nutrition on breast cancer patients.  No wonder we worry so much.

cp418

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/143393.php

barbe1958

That article admits it is "ambiguous" at best. They followed a very old demographic of people - age 51+.

I think the silly thing is that they lumped "processed meat" in with red meat. Processed meat is horrible for you! We know that. Way too much salt and chemicals, etc.

I would take more stock in the article if it had just been red meat. 

Oneworker

So Timothy, if what you say is true, how can one have organic milk (free of added hormones)?

Do they only use pregnant cows?

carol1949

I think the jury is still out on red meat.  I do eat it occassionally, but I try to buy the hormone free/organic fed beef if I have any.

I highly recommend for you all to get the book or go on line and read Dr. Patrick Quillin's Beating Cancer With Nutrition.  He is fomrer VP of the Cancer Treatment Center of America.

Remember, most physicians do not know a lot about nutrition.  However, there is also some concern that to get through chemo... you need to eat a bit differently than after.  I ate a lot of salmon and fish through tx.  My oncologist, told me to eat as much organic food as possible and to avoid milk due to the estrogen.  I buy the hormone free milk also.

Good luck to all.  If anyone has estrogen positive you might also read about the Lugol's iodine/solution as an aid to block estrogen in the breasts.  You can google it and find an abundance of info.

Husband11

Oneworker, they mean it is free of artificial hormones.  Yes, the cows must have been calving, or there wouldn't be any milk.  I'm pretty sure its just like humans, milk production is related to the hormones of pregnancy.  Here's an interesting article from Anderson Coopers staff:

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/04/09/got-milk-got-hormones-got-a-problem-with-that/ 

I have to agree with the sentiment that its wise to err on the side of caution.  Even if science can't put a connection together, to avoid unnatural, artificial substances, it doesn't mean they are harmless.

cp418

I posted the article for general information.  HIMO, if you eat meat in moderation as lean cuts preferably organic and not treated with hormones is okay -- - humans have been doing this since the stone age.  I think we get in trouble with the hormone treated meats, processed, smoked products and over charcoal - grilled.  People who eat this way as their major diet over a long term will probably have various health issues and not just cancer.