Natural anti-estrogens

Misty3

Does anyone use natural anti-estrogens in addition to or in place of Tamoxifen?

I currently take DIM and Calcium D Glucarate as I have declined Tamoxifen.

Mykidsmom

Misty - I do not know of natural anti-estrogens. I have also chosen not to take tamoxofin. I am going to close monitoring route. I plan to have my surgeon bx anything slightly suspcious and I plan to have a PBM when I can't stand the bx anymore or if there are any further indications of problems. At 54 I figure I will take my health over my breasts. I am also trying to increase my physical activity and my fruit/veg intake. I am also trying to take my risk in stride (certainly easier said than done). I just can't get myself to take tamoxofin w/ it's known side effects.

 Good luck. - Jean

Misty3

I'm in my forties but I'm right there with you on the Tamoxifen.  I also manage risk with exercise and high vegtable intake including about 24 oz daily green juice.  I also feel better taking the DIM and calcium D Glucarate.

leaf

It is a very individual decision, and everyone has a right to their own opinion.

 

While DIM may be a marvelous agent, it looks like in a Pubmed search, when used as a supplement, there is scanty, if any, research on its efficacy or safety in humans.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16651444

Of course, there is a lot of epidemiological evidence that the increased consumption of fruits and vegetables lowers one's cancer risk.

But there is a lot we do not know about alternative supplements.

 For one, in the US, the amount of active substance, if any, is not regulated at all.  I could produce "Leaf's Magic DIM formula" , and fill it with flour, or some inert substance.  As long as I believed it was the right thing, I can put it on the market.     There have been several alternative medications where they found there was *no* active ingredient.

Even if there is the stated amount of active ingredient in something, they are not required to report any side effects.  There are alternative meds that were found to have toxic substances in them, sometimes from foreign countries, and they could not pursue this because they were made in foreign countries.

If you say that DIM can't be harmful because it occurs in fruits and vegetables that we eat, that may be perfectly true, or it may not.  There are cases where supplements have been shown to be harmful.  For example, it was found that beta-carotene caused MORE lung cancer among smokers.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9611613

L tryptophan, a naturally occuring amino acid, had contaminants that were associated with a harmful syndrome.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7699627

Of course, I think there are some alternative medicines that are very effective. Many of the products that we use today originated with biological products.  We just have a lot to learn on the subject.  

I am not trying to generalize and say that every alternative medicine is worthless.  In many alternative supplements, there is probably not a lot of scientific evidence.  The makers of the medication have a vested interest in selling you some product. Critical thinking is important.

Tamoxifen has been studied since about the 1930s, so they know a lot more about it than they do about DIM, and its efficacy and safety (or lack thereof) in humans.

It is a very personal decision. 

If you're going through hell, keep going-Winston Churchill

Anonymous

I have to agree with Leaf on this one.  You have to be very careful with any alternative supplements because the research is just not there like it is with tamoxifen. Personally, I've done very well with tamox--I have just about 4 weeks to go to finish up my 5 years. My mom also took tamox many years ago--had virtually no SEs to speak of--and is now a survivor of ILC of over 21 years without a recurrence. While tamox does have some serious SEs, the incidence of them is extremely low, reportedly less than 1% (for blood clots or endometrial cancer).  I also tell women just to be sure to have a yearly transvaginal US to monitor both the uterinine lining and the ovaries.

Anne

FEB

Why is it that whenever people say that they have decided to use any alternative method, instead of drugs, people always have to try to talk them back into it. I respect the fact that the choice to use Tamox or arimedex is the right one for some people, however we should be able to go on these alternative threads, without people telling us we are making the wrong decision. I happen to feel much safer using diet, exercise, and supplements than I do putting these mass produced chemicals into my body. This thread was supposed to be about natural estrogens, not about telling people they would be better off with drugs. Please allow us a forum where we can exchange ideas about natural estrogens without having to debate the issue. We are well aware that there are risks in going a more natural route, but for those of us who feel the benefits outweigh the risks, please do not try to second guess us. We are aware that there are studies that prove and disprove different alternatives. We do do our own research. All I know is that I feel fantastic by following a holistic regimen. I have no fear of cervical cancer, ostoeoporosis, joint pain, depression or any other side effects. And because I am so much healthier, on the cellular level, than I have ever been, I have no fear that my cancer will return. I hope that others who feel as I do, will not be coerced by others into doing away with alternatives because of one or two studies. Going the holistic route is not easy. It takes vigilance and committment. It would be much easier to just take a pill. But for all of those who are like me, and taking the hard way, please let us share our committment with each other without constantly being told we are not making the right decision. We all have the right to make our own choices! Leave the debate to the other threads where they are appropriate. PLEASE!!!

FEB

I forgot to add, to Misty and Jean. I am right there with you, all the way on the holistic path. I have lowered my estrogen with natural methods like I3C, weight loss, exercise, and diet. I will get another blood test in a couple of weeks to check it again. The human body is such an amazing miracle of nature. Just as it is natural for cells to go array and become cancerous, it is natural that our immune system can fight it off. We can never be sure that anything will make us 100% bullet proof, but natural methods can give us the same statistical results as chemicals. And we will feel even better in the long run. All my best to you both.

Misty3

Hi LCIS'ers,  I started this thread to find out if anyone was taking a more natural approach to lowering estrogen not to start a debate on whether one way is better than the other.  I have made my decision to decline Tamoxifen based on research and consultation with my oncologist and surgeon.  I am a fully informed patient and smart enough to decide my course of health care.  There is not much anyone can say to me to alter my decision.  I do appreciate dear leaf and awbs feedback as always--they rock (as my 12 yr old would say!)

Having said that, I am so happy to find some fellow alternative treatment folks.  Great to meet you Linda and Jean.  Perhaps we can compare notes sometime.  I follow the same regime of diet, exercise and supplementation to manage risk.  I, too, have never felt better in my life.  I also do daily green juicing.  I would be interested in your supplementation choices and your feelings about Vit D, Calcium D Glucarate and diet changes.

Misty

leaf

LindaMemm: I apologize to you that you felt my post was an attack on you or your choices.  It was not meant that way.

I think everyone must choose his or her own way.  Not everyone knows about the regulatory differences between prescription, over the counter, and supplements.

I support the choice that anyone with LCIS makes: Whether it be prophylactic mastectomy, or tamoxifen or other AI with surveillance, or surveillance with or without supplements and/or healthy lifestyles, or even no surveillance at all with or without healthy lifestyle changes or supplements.  There are risks and benefits to every one of these choices.

We all are in charge of our one and only body. We are all different.

Almost everything to do with LCIS is controversial. I am happy that you have found others who have chosen many of the same choices that you have chosen.

Anonymous

Linda--I'm sorry--I meant no offense--just advising people to be careful when using supplements.  We all have to make our own decisions that we can live with comfortably. I go for my mammo in the am--praying I get good results.  Wish me luck!

Anne

FEB

Anne and Leaf, Thanks for understanding. We all need to support each other in every way. Good luck on your mammo Anne. I opted for a thermograph instead and I was astounded at how my breast was still showing signs of rads 6 months after I finished. I am hoping by the next one it will have cooled down. Two things I love about therms: they are painless, and I can do them often without feeling that I am exposing myself to more radiation. If they are read by someone who is very experienced, they have the same rate of discovery as mammos. Since I found the lump myself, not the mammo, I feel confident that this is a good thing for me.

ailenroc

Hi All:

It sounds like many of you are experienced with alternative methods of lowering estrogen. I am new to this but want to learn asap about it because I need to make a decision on Tamoxifen. My tumor cells are 100% estrogen positive; so can someone let me know how I can effectively lower my estrogen levels please. If you say diet: what kind of diet is it? Exercise: what kind, how much? Supplements: which??

Thanks,

C

FEB

C-There is so much to say it would take all day. A lot of it has been covered on many threads here in the alternatives section. Also, check out the threads about books to read. I find books to be the best help for me because they usually explain the science of it all. I also reccomend that you find  a doctor who is willing to monitor you with blood or saliva tests that can measure your estrogen levels and vit d. You will probably have to go to the chiropractic field like I did because regular doctors know nothing about nutriotion. I take a lot of supplements, including indole 3 carbinol, 5000 IU of vit d, 1000 of C, magnesium, calcium, vit e, and 3000 per day of Omega 3. I also take melonin at bedtime which is a natual sleep aid, antioxidant, and mellows me out during the day. I could go on and on. The weight loss is key because excess weight in the midriff, which I had, produces excess estrogen. Exercising every day helps to balance insulin levels which are also affects estrogen levels. And finally get rid of the sugars, alcohol, and starches. I know it sounds overwhelming and awfully time consuming, but believe me it won't take long and you will start to feel so good that you will love your new outlook. My dx was the same as yours. I feel so lucky that I caught this early and I am determined never to take my health for granted again, and do all I can to keep my immune system from being overtaxed. You can do it too! Let me know whenever you need a cheerleader.

Misty3

Dear C,  This is my current regime for lowering BC risk: 

DIM
Calcium D Glucarate
Flax oil and ground flax seed--1tbs daily
Folic Acid
Vit D
Vit E
Green tea
Magnesium
Multivit
Selenium
Turmeric
Alpha-Lipoic acid

I also eat cruciferous vegtables and fruit daily in addition to daily green juice.  I am also trying to increase my exercise daily (time limits me on this one--I have 3 young kids and I am a grad student!) 

Although I am not overweight, I have lost weight.  I am eating better and living better than I ever have in the past.  I know I am doing everything in my power to manage my risk without drugs.  I feel good about my decision to decline Tamoxifen based on my current lifestyle.  If Tamoxifen actually prevented BC, it would be a no brainer for me.  Even if I take Tamoxifen, I could still develope BC--it's a coin toss.  If I do develope BC, I will not kick myself for not taking the drug as I know I have done my best. 

Here are some articles re: natural anti-estrogens.  I only take DIM but included Myomin FYI.  These articles are not based on clinical trials as these drugs have not been studied in that manner.

http://energetic-nutrition.net/vitalzym/dim.html

http://www.energeticnutrition.com/vitalzym/myomin.html

MauiDonna

I have been on Tamoxifen for 3 years now with very little to no side effects. However, I am starting to take Calcium D-glucarate and wonder if it hinders the effectiveness of Tamoxifen or is it harmful to take them both. I do not want to go off of Tamoxifen but I like the idea of CDG for cellular level detoxification.  Please advise if you know if taking about 2-3 grams of cdg a day and Tamoxifen is ok. Mahalo from Maui

integritygal470

Misty3,

I just recently read your post from September of 2008, with your list of supplements and description of your healthy lifestyle. Thanks so much for sharing this information. I am currently at the stage where I am supposed to start taking Tamoxifen and I scared to dealth of it. What a relief to read what you have written. I hope you are doing well and that it is working for you. I'm looking for a similar approach myself. Did you see a special doctor or did you figure this out yourself?

Thanks in advance.

lbrewer

check out the research from Mayo and MD ANdserson on flax seed.  It appears to work in the same way as Arimidx and shrunk tumors prior to breast surgery.  Has to be the seed thno not the oil.  The oil does not have the same anti-cancer components.

helena1018

Hi!  Just found this thread and glad I did.  I have agonized over whether to start a five year course of Arimidex not only because of the side effects while on the drug, but also long-term damage like osteoporosis.  I don't like the idea of having to take other drugs to control the side effects of Arimidex.  Quality of life is extremely important to me and I don't want to feel sick for five years to potentially decrease my risk of recurrence from 10% to 5%.  I had a .9 cm ILC with associated LCIS.  Pre-surgical MRI showed no disease in either breast.  The CA was confined to the left axillary tail which was completely removed along with sentinel nodes which were negative.  I finished accelerated partial breast irradiation 2 weeks ago.  Other than some mild discomfort at the incision site which got the brunt of the radiation, I feel great and don't want to give that up.  My medical oncologist wants me to try a 3 month trial of Arimidex starting in May to determine how I will tolerate the drug.  I have done extensive research and can't find any study where a woman's current estrogen status, weight, BMI, etc. is taken into consideration - everyone gets 1 mg of Arimidex.  It is illogical to me that the drug is not titrated based on individual characteristics.  I am definitely post-menopausal, weight is 110 lbs, hgt. 5'4", BMI 18.1.  I eat a healthy diet, exercise, rarely drink alcohol, take vitamins and anti-oxidants and feel like careful monitoring should be enough. I am glad there are women who feel comfortable in declining HT.  I was beginning to feel like I was playing Russian roulette by even considering NOT to do HT.

hrf

I would like to know more about the ground flaxseed. I had been having some every day with my oatmeal for about 4 years and still developed 100% ES+ bc. I had heard that it might actually act like estrogen in the body and have heard from many to avoid it. Is there new research about it?

LibraGirl

I've been trying to find out more about this too.  Here are some relatively recent articles on phytoestrogens (found in flaxseed) I found.  Would love to hear from the research wonks on here about this topic / convergent evidence.

Dietary Lignan Intake  (2007)

Phytoestrogens not linked to breast cancer  (Dec 2009)

Flax Lignan - Helpful or Harmful? (2010)

MistyJ

Flaxseed can act as an estrogen, but as a weaker one and can fill spots in the receptor with a weaker signal and therefore prevents estradiol or stronger signalled estrogens to take the place.  I just read a wonderful book that breaks all of the supplements, estrogens, etc. down to an understandable level.  You really have to be careful when changing your diet, but there are wonderful results out from studies regarding diet changes and supplements.  Check out The Breast Cancer Prevention Diet By Dr. Bob Arnot.

Butterfly108

Hi... I am new here and I know this was posted a few years ago.. I just had to answer this post... I am with u 10000 percent.. I totally believe in the holistic approach. I was diagnosed with ILC breast cancer last year stage 1 estrogen positive. Anyway . Had lumpectomy with 6 wks radiation plus they wanted me to do tamoxifen .. Well I was against doing both but ended up doing just radiation.. I have alot of other health issues for years . I have had chronic fatigue fibromyslgia low white blood cell count , low blood pressure.. Anyway, having being diagnosed with cancer made me open up my eyes to my health .. I had to be my own advocate for my own health .. I researched and researched my symptoms etc... I diagnosed myself with Hashimoto's thyroiditis .. Set up an appt with an endocrinologist , not to mention was at 100 different Drs. Prior to going there.. Low and behold this is what I had.. Found out had a gluten allergy on my own .. So started changing my diet exercise taking some supplements and actually started feeling a bit better. Now 1 yr. later have breast cancer again in same breast had double masectomy 6 wks ago with diep flap reconstruction.. They want me to do chemo and arimidex .. I am petrified of cancer coming back.. It was an aggressive cancer stage one , lymph node neg except 2 nodes had isolated tumor cells.. Which Drs. Can't explain significance of it they say its negative. It was estrogen positive... Found out about this calcium d stuff and bought yesterday.. I would like to start on Dim... Have an appt to see a holistic Dr on July 11. My belief the holistic way is the way to go.. I am going to refuse chemo and probably arimidex.. With all my other health issues I am not going to put more toxins in my body.. I am hoping this holistic dr will get me on right path.. Cause maybe I am not taking right combo of vitamins.. This estrogen I believe could be the problem cause liver not functioning properly.. All our problems stem from our gut is what I believe.. I believe all my other health issues are just like a domino effect stemming from gut issues. And by going with what these Drs. want me to do is just masking the real problem not fixing it.. My oncologist and breast surgeon both said themselves cause I asked.. I could do all this stuff and cancer could come back so why do it?? I would rather go the other way cause either way I am taking a risk.. I have strong believe in God and I am pretty positive person, so I believe cancer is all gone now and I have to take care of me so it won't ever return and definitely not by putting toxins in my body.. So, it's great to see there are other people who believe in what I believe in.. I am well aware too about limited research on supplements, but I feel better when I take them,, so I have to ask myself how bad can it be.. Sorry for rambling on and on but really needed to get this off my chest to someone who understands cause my husband does not agree with me as well as some other people.. May God bless you all out there afflicted with illness.. My wish is we all get healthy again... By the way,, since this was posted 5 years ago if you still go on...did you stick with holistic approach and if so how are you doing today ? God Bless!! Thanks for listening..

rosyFL

Hello butterfly 10,

I just wanted to acknowledge you here.  I wish you the best with the path you have chosen.  You are very brave.   Many blessings to you on your journey to good health.

rosy

rosyFL

Many blessings to you butterfly10 on your chosen path to health.  You are very brave.

rosy

bamboogirl

Hey Butterfly, I'm just reading your post and I wanted to connect with you. We seem to have a similar situation, I too was diagnosed IDC in 2010, recurrence this March, BMX in May. I'm struggling with the idea of taking Tamox. I too have hashimoto's thyroiditis, which I control by a strict gluten-free/paleo diet. I feel fantastic eating this way. I'm tormented with the idea of taking a medication that will most likely affect my thyroid gland amongst other things, plus I recently read that 30% of women on Tamox will develop fatty liver. I feel disheartened that is is the only thing the Onc can offer me. I'm on a raft of supplements, but having hashimoto's, I cannot tolerate DIM, I3C, flaxseeds, or selenium (all proven to lower Estrogen). They are goitrogenic. I also was hopeful for EGCG  but it upsets my immune system balance and throws me into an auto-immune state. I'm currently taking Resveratrol and Curcumin together and that's working for me. Have you worked out a supplement program? 

All the best to you and your bravery.

Enerva

Hi buterfly108 and bamboogirl, i was dx in 2012 LCIS had a bm in march, did chemo prior to surgery then had to do rad, due to my margen been still not clear i am positive for estrogen but decided not to take Tamoxifen. i feel eating healthy and taking sup will be best for me. I am also curious to know how these ladies are doing? i wanted to ask you i read somewhere that woman with bc should not take flaxseed oil and i need to ask you your opinion? Thanks