Nader: Conscience of the Democrats!

anneshirley

Paulette--glad you're not in a snit, I'm definitely not. I love discourse.  Right now, I'm watching the Obama video and will probably write a post, as I watch his speech, commenting.  It may annoy some folks but like you I don't care.

First comment is on Dick Durben (sp) introduction.  He said something about Obama respecting privacy, which is my first objection:  Did he forget that Obama voted for FISA, when once he said he'd filibuster against it!

I'm liking the video because it's low key.  I think I would have liked his mother, but then she sounds a bit like me--non-believer who believed in everything. I now have one problem with video, part where they speak of how he fought nuclear proliferation--now the story is somewhat different. He actually watered down the legislation that he introduced, and one of his largest contributors was (maybe is) executives in the nuclear industry he claims to have regulated.

He's attacking McCain too much in my view, on silly things.  Hard core Democrats may accept this, I don't think independents will.

Finally, getting to specifics.  Love the boot straps, having no boots comment.  Good touch.

How we measure progress!  Specifics are good but he's giving the same ones that Clinton gave last night.

Brief emphasis on small businesses.  Good but perhaps more needed.

NB: Clinton is a better speaker.  Not sure why Obama has the reputation he has.  His speeches lack warmth and I never get the feeling that he's speaking to me.  I always feel that he's speaking to a larger audience. He's good, of course, but not great.  For sure, I'll hear arguments on this!  Not from the Republicans though.

Promises:  mostly rhetoric here.

What government should do.  Of course, I agree with all of these, and more.  I am my brother's keeper.  Good touch, bringing in Christian philosophy.

Change means:

tax code:  sorry not specific enough.

Capital gains: Eliminate for small businesses.

Cut taxes--WTF, are we now Republicans?.  I hate the "cut taxes" promises that we always get from the Republicans and now the Democrats.  Such an insult to all of us.

Ten year commitment to end foreign oil dependence; good.

More specifics here.

Natural gas, clean coal, nuclear power; retool cars, 150,000 billion in renewable energy.

Ok, great but from where are you getting the money if you're cutting taxes on 95% of people.  Far too many promises here.

World class education to compete in global economy.  

Education: Great, we're all going to Harvard.  I remember so well the changes that LBJ brought in, and we're still where we were, actually behind where we were.  So if that didn't work, how will this work.

Health care:  Took Hillary's plan, for shame!  And still no mandates.

No discrimination against those who are sick:  Good, make sure you do it!

Paid sick days. Also good, how do you get businesses to agree.

Missed something on high CEO salaries:  That really is needed, but what did he promise?

Equal salaries for all.  I'll take that one.

How will he pay.  This is where I think he really falls down and where the Republicans will go after him. He promises, absolutely, he can pay. He says he'll get rid of corporate loop holes.  I doubt we have that many loop holes.  And now he says he'll also peruse all programs and get rid of those that don't work. Well, if you haven't done that, how do you know you'll find the money to pay for all you promised.

Finally telling Americans that they have to make sacrifices; turn of TV--yeah.  I only got to watch for 30 minutes when I was a child--not that I used the other time to study but at least I read.

Judgment and temperament of next president.  Calling McCain's judgment and temperament into play.

Yes, we know you opposed the war; I'm tired of hearing it; I opposed it more than you did, and I doubt anyone would nominate me.

And now he's going to get us into another war.  Americans sure love to make war.  Didn't like the line about McCain following Bin Laden to hell but not to the cave where he lives.  Totally unfair! And he knows it!  Do others?

Section on Iraq war got biggest applause (please note, Nancy Pelosi) and I also thought the one with the least truth. A talking point only.

Section on Georgia and other conflicts I also thought false.  He plays with words, so that he says everything without saying anything.  I suppose it's good politics, but it doesn't satisfy me.

Now we're going to Afghanistan!  Not happy about this.

Genocide:  Hope you plan to go to Dafur.  Nope!

Debates with McCain.  Patriotism has no Party.  Good line.  Back to my earlier post about the flag.  Echos here of other speechs, red America, blue America. Very obvious what he did here.  He seems to be saying that we should be fair to each other, but while he was saying this, he was attaching McCain.

The two greats speeches of our country were short:  Lincoln and Martin Luther King, and this one won't get into the same book. Too much rhetoric, too little warmth.  His speech on race was better--far better.

Common purpose.  Abortion:  reduce unwed mothers.

gun control:  AK 47's

same sex marriage:  again, to the hospital.  How generous!  Just what gays want.  .  

Immigration:  again, he doesn't give anything, just talk.  Hate that!  

He just said people might say it's happy talk--and he's right!

You don't have a record to run on, yet he turned it back on McCain.  Might work, might not!

Yes, I am a complete cynic; as any intelligent person living through eleven national elections would be. .

He's just mentioned that he's different.  Hope he's not going to the dollar bill again.  

Oh come on Obama.  Of course it's about you.  

Good ploy though; Basically he's saying that because I'm not of Washington, I'm the candidate for you, but look at who he chose for VP, Biden. Who knows if this worked; didn't for me.

Republicans picking up  Democrat ballot--wasn't that Rush's doing?

Makes us strong.  American spirit.  better place around the bend.  Some nice images.

No mention of LBJ--that's a real shame.  He was completely ignored yesterday and apparently again today.  Talking now in MLK cadence.  You'fe not MLK, not by a long shot! 

Well, he's finished.  It was a good speech, not a great speech.  I thought Clinton was better last night and definitely better when he was nominated. No light moments here, and lacked warmth.   .

Luckily they didn't feature the back ground too much--a wise decision.

Kids are cute but I find this family stuff corny. I did with Gore and I do now.  Oh God, fireworks coming out of the columns,  No to that!  It reminds me of something I've seen in a movie.

Too many flags--if we're not suppose to question each other's patriotism why do we need all the flags.  Hate it, and the arm-in-arm, walking into the sunset Hollywood stuff.  Gag, gag, gag.  And yes, I am the complete cynic! 

God, I dislike Olbermann.  Such a sycophant!  I wonder how many people are turned off by this stuff.  Even if Obama were my favorite politician of all time (not), this stuff would turn me off.  Guess, like Paulette's says, I'm too morose.  And sorry Keith, it is the stuff of fiction, and not in the least real. Is Chris Matthews crying?  He says there was nothing to critique.  Maybe I should send along my notes. 

A good speech, not a great speech. I liked the video very much; it had a lovely soft feel, and was very real and sincere. The speech didn't match it.   

Conclusion:  I never drink KoolAid. 

Anonymous

Anneshirley, now I don't have to watch the speech that I taped.  You did a beautiful job of critiquing his speech.  I saw bits and pieces.  I saw the beautiful fireworks.  They were real, right?  LOL  And the family thing..I saw that too.  The kids are adorable. 

I'm going to get me some Kool-Aid! 

Shirley

Paulette531

Well on the speech...wasn't my cup of tea and hardly thought of it as brillant (as some infer) and Mo's dress looked like something from a Spiegels catalogue (not that there is anything wrong with shopping from the Spiegel catalogue), the oldest kid's dress looked like a junior version of a prom dress and I thought quite inappropriate for her age and the circumstances under which she was wearing it and the younger kid's dress was ridiculous...just my opinion, I know there are the groupies over there -------> that think all was perfection. Please note: this is not an attack, this is my personal opinion of the clothing and at the ages of the kids, the parents should have the good sense to monitor their clothing better.

anneshirley

I can't believe that I'm excited about a Republican VP selection, but I am, very.  I think McCain did the only thing he could do to stay equal with Obama.  The Democrats have it all this year to win, so he needed to do something drastic.  I've said before that Obama was an absolute fool not to pick Hillary and it came across to me as a huge insult to me as a woman.  And I absolutely know there are women out there who are still angry.  Will they vote for a Republican ticket--have no clue.  I won't, but I won't vote Democratic either.  And also important she will probably get the Republican base out to vote.

And those debates between Biden and Palin will be fascinating.  Will he do as the Republican did to Hillary during the senate race in New York?  He dropped drastically in the polls when he appeared to be bullying her.  And then there was the incident in New Hampshire when Obama said Hillary was likable enough. 

Of course, I'm also thinking of Margaret Thatcher, whom I came to dislike intensely.  Hope she's not a Margaret Thatcher!  Just thinking out loud.

I was feeling so depressed, and it's been lifted some.  Finally, a woman!

anneshirley

Paulette--about minimum wage.  I won't put a number out there because numbers change as circumstances change.  A minimum wage, in my view, permits the person receiving the wage to purchase the basic necessities to survive, including shelter, clothing, heat, health care insurance. And the current minimum wage doesn't do this.  I am very conservative in my spending and I couldn't live on the minimum wage, and I doubt if you could either. And if we as a nation don't feel that we can do that, then I would hope we'd also stop objecting to welfare.  What options are left: begging with a bowl in the street.  What bothers me about Republicans is that they object to raising the minumum wage so that individuals can keep their heads above water, and they also object to welfare, to begging, and to suicide. What's left?  Do we build huge prisons and lock them away for life--actually far more costly to society than raising the minimum wage. You know, I'm sure, where I'm going now. Isn't that what we've done in this country?

I've allowed my discussion to go to the ridiculous, so I'll get serious now.  Everything has gone up in this country to an alarming degree.  When we were living in Europe, left here in 2001, we heard constantly that inflation was stable in the United States.  We returned almost five years later and were shocked to find most things had actually doubled, at least in NY City.  And just recently I learned that the government doesn't include most of the items that directly affect people's lives in the inflation index.  Yet the minimum wage has been stagnant for years, with tiny increases when they come, and this can be directly attributed to the Republican Party.

And, although I don't work in a canning factory, I would never denigrate those who do. It's a hard job and why shouldn't the people who do it get a living wage, or perhaps we should just write off the state of Maine and other places where there are no opportunities for good manufacturing jobs (which are going quickly even in the industrial states) or do we farm out these jobs to China and get rid of another American industry.  I honestly don't understand Republicans, and I doubt I ever will, at least not as long as they show such little sensitivity to the needs of people less well off than they. 

Speaking of Maine, I think that McCain may have insured himself the state of Maine with Sarah Palin--probably not a big deal considering the few electoral votes here.  Everyone here hunts, even Democrats; and many have snow mobiles--the guy next door has two; they love women politicians, with two Republican senators, and listening to Palin speak today, she reminded me a lot of the women I meet in Maine.  And so many of young people here go into the military since there aren't a whole lot of jobs for those getting out of high school, but not going on to college..   I wonder what Palin's views are on the minimum wage?

snowyday

Hi Anneshirley, I love reading your posts they make sense to me an clarify alot of thoughts I have on what's going on in the US. As you know I'm Candian and I don't get to vote, just watch and hope, because the US election is really an election that affects the world around them.  I thought what McCain did was brilliant.  I was upset that he didn't pick Hilary for VP, so much for the man that goes for change. I've said it before and I'll say it again. He's full of alot of talk, but I've yet to really hear anything, STILL. And to pick Badin for VP, just shows that the old boys club had alot to do with getting him to where he is. 

Also everyone please remember what the the heading of this thread is, Nader: Conscience of the Democrats. So why is everyone so fired up at Anneshirley for writing her opinions, aren't we all allowed our opinions, also I've read Anneshirley's posts and I didn't see her attack anyone personally, now some may take it personally and to that I say, please don't be so full of yourself. I am going to get alot of flak for this but I believe we should be allowed to voice our opinion, without everyone jumping down your keyboard=throat.  In Ontario Canada in 1987 they changed the Welfare System to what they called Ontario Works, I worked as a tax collector back then and the changes were nothing short of miraculous, they offered education, free babysitting, job assistance and now the Welfare rolls are so low they have set up a committee to find out where they all went.  They can track the ones that went to back to school, and took advantage of Job training opportunties, free childcare it really helped alot people.  I remember seeing the clients come in at one point in our small community of 5000 people there were over three hundred people on welfare, now there are about 20. Amazing and Ontario Works still works.  But I am now one of the poor, I pulled my pension and lived off of that and now I'm on a Pension I live on 999.00 per month, my rent is 700. So that leaves me with 299,00. I was getting a special diet allowance but yesterday they just cut it off, no notice just gone. Just now mu landlady called and told me that the bank os taking back the house and I start chemo in a week and don't know how I'm goijng to move.  So stop giving Anne shriley shit.   Pearl

Paulette531

Ahhh Snowy...I do not believe everyone is fired up at Anne but expressing their opinions just as YOU are, so why end with "stop giving AnneShirley s***"...good grief! And Snowy, where welfare is concerned I do agree there are times in a persons life where they may need help, I am opposed to generational welfare and a system that is not monitored and allows for so much fraud. And I do believe welfare can be very detrimental to people as it is a way to keep them in bondage.

AnneShirley...Yes I believe minimum wage should cover the bare necessities and I probably couldn't live on it...but don't know for sure that I couldn't.It's funny, my sister in Virginia and I had a similar discussion recently. She just turned 62 and is going to retire. We were talking about living on SS and if this was possible. Ever the optimist (liberal Democrat as well) she says she can. Of course her house is paid for and part of her inheritance is the trust will pay her taxes yearly as well sooo...a different ballgame entirely, of course she doesn't see it that way! Basically her SS would be used to pay the utilities and her food and whatever clothing, entertainment she deemed necessary. Of course she can also work and make a little extra, I think $900.00 monthly. All in all she would have to live on about $2000.00 monthly, with no house payment and no taxes. I would think a single person could do this.

Where the minimum wage is concerned there are so many variables, values placed on jobs, single person, married person w/family, dropout, some college, the list is endless. I think a minimum wage should be a starting point that encourages a person to strive for more through bettering himself/herself through education. And I know that life gets in the way of that at times, we make decisions that turn out to kick us in the butt and we are down and out for awhile or sometimes we have decisions made for us and have few choices. But, like everything else, the minimum wage has so many variables it's hard to say, maybe a yearly increase that is the same percentage as the the percentage the cost of living index goes up?  I don't know the answer. I understand meeting people as you did and it making you think but how do we take care of everyone who has a story to tell? My younger sister is a good example, she lost her job with corporate America, never saved anything, (she was the spoiled one in the family when we were kids), ended up working for Home Depot (she is 58) and she barely scrapes by and I mean barely! She has had to learn a few hard lessons that she always took for granted previously. The other side of that coin is that she gets help from my brother and I on a regular basis. The way she was sacked from her job was outragious and if she would have fought back instead of whining how unfair life is, she probably would be sitting on easy street right now. 

I don't know the answer for all the people who aren't making it, I really don't.  

anneshirley

Pearl,

Your story about Ontario and the welfare system is fascinating.  I'll have to read more about it.  I certainly agree that we can't expect to lift people out of poverty if we don't give them the necessary tools, and  (no brickbats, please) Canada has always been more progressive than the U.S. on social issues.

I'm really sorry to hear that it's not being progressive for you. You obviously need some help in finding a new place to live.  Is there any way you can call either a public or private agency to help  you in finding a home quickly?  I can't imagine how you can deal with chemo and find a new home at the same time.  I just hate the indifference of government, whatever government, to the plight of people, and I so much wish I could help, beyond just commiserating. And thanks for the defense--very much appreciated. 

Paulette, I knew, from your story about your sisters on another thread that you're not really heartless; same with Shokk, who was one of the few women who showed any sympathy for  Spitzer's wife.  I wonder if it's true that our country has become so divided that we just refuse to see those on the other side as decent people.  I certainly know that having BC and being on this thread and another, I've learned--to an extent--to accept that there are other viewpoints and that they may even be valid.  Still learning, however.

One thing I did learn today is that Republican women are as joyous in seeing a woman get on a national ticket as Democrats were back when Ferraro was nominated. I was quite shocked to see so much joy over on the Republican thread.  My husband just read to me Hillary's response to McCain's choice, which I thought was excellent.  Not mean-spirited, like so many of those that came from the Obama campaign.  Hope it doesn't cause those who can't see the forest for Obama to bash Hillary all over again. 

How will the NBC cable crowd handle this?  If they do to Palin what they did to Clinton, it will demostrate fully how much gender bias there is in that news organization.  But they can't do it--far too obvious, so in some ways Palin will get a pass where a Romney wouldn't.  And it's also fascinating to note that on many levels she will appeal to Hillary's blue collar workers, men and women:

She has a very cute family, and she really is from a middle-class, or working class family, and I doubt has more than one home.  Her husband, of all things, is a commerical fisherman, same occupation that so many have here in Maine. (Until I moved here, I'm sure I would have been very positive about the recent law demanding that commercial fishermen use a different type of line to avoid entangling whales.  But then I read an article in our local newspaper that the new lines cost $10,000+ per boat, and the fishermen have to pay for it out of their own pockets.) 

He's a union member, steelworkers no less.

She's a hunter--all those NRA voters.

Her son is a solder--the military vote.

She's a reformer in government and she's not of Washington.  Of the four, she's the only one who is not an insider.  

I did hope, if he chose a woman, that it would be Olympia Snow, who's pro-choice, but also probably not a very exciting speaker.  But then I'm one of those who prefer competence to speaking ability.  How come we don't ever elect the speech writer? 

Of course, her lack of experience on the national level is something of a problem, but Obama has no experience as well.  He's barely been in the senate since getting elected, hasn't even called a committe meeting.  But she has far more experience on economic issues than Obama, and Biden, and McCain.  She actually ran a government, and apparently has been quite successful.  And does size matter?  LOL Ross Piorot threw that one at Bill Clinton, since Arkansas is a small state and was also at the bottom of the states in terms of economy and many other things. And look where he wound up!

She amazed me today; she spoke far better than McCain, who had to refer to his notes throughout his short speech.  She glanced down once or twice.  With some coaching, she can really come along, and for sure she'll spent the next week with coaches, on everything.

It's going to be a fascinating campaign--but now with Palin, poor Ralph Nader will never even get an interview.  . 

Anonymous

Snowy, so sorry you are going through a horrible time.  I hope you get financial help soon.  I don't know how you do it...chemo and the worries.  I believe in government help when help is really needed.  I don't have any answers for this country or your's.  One problem I do know is that in this country some people know how to work the system.  That cheats the one's who really need it.  To me it's unconscionable.

anneshirley

I wonder what Nader is saying about this.  I didn't find anything on his website?  He's somewhat like me with regard to the Democrats.  He holds them to the fire more than the Republicans--sorry Republicans (close your ears), but he feels that Democrats should know better, and also feels they're huge phonies, talking about helping the poor and working class and when they get into office doing absolutely nothing!

Fascinated by this, really fascinated.  So here's my latest silly theory.  Will Joe Biden all of a sudden get sick and can't run, and Obama will then replace him with Hillary!  Wouldn't that be a kicker?  I'm a novelist, what can I say.  I'm always thinking of plot lines. 

snowyday

anneshriley I had the same thought as you about Biden getting sick and then Obama replacing hime with Hilary. Yes I'm afraid I've lost my apartment the bank is taking the house from my landylady, she is great and has helped me so much, I don't know what I'm going to do.  I really don't. Oh well maybe I'll win a lottery, (better I buy a ticket first thoug).  Have a good day all.

AnnNYC

Pearl, you're in if my lottery ticket ever wins -- I have a few others on my list to share the (imaginary) wealth with...

Do your sons live in London?  Can they put you up if you find yourself without a place to move into right away? I'm wondering, isn't there something like Disability that you ought to be eligible for in addition to your pension?  You don't have to answer these questions if you don't want -- I'm just thinking out loud -- I wish there was something I could do to help...

Hugs,

Ann

saluki

 I think some of the PUMAs may vote the McCain/ Palin ticket but split the rest of their vote to ensure a Democratic Congress

Pearl I am so sorry to hear of your situation.  I am on Medicare disability-and in the donut hole......I can't work nor can I live on less than 800.00 a month and still pay the medicare premiums and medication.  Your situation is my constant fear.  I'll be keeping you in my thoughts for that winning lottery ticket.

 

anneshirley

Susie--not sure how this will work out, but I sure wish women of whatever party, or no party, would stop trashing women candidates for things they would never think of trashing in a man.  We all have reason to celebrate, no matter whether we're pro-choice or anti-choice, that a woman is once again on a national ticket.  Would it have been better to have an anti-choice man on the ticket?  As least Palin knows the consequences of deciding not to have an abortion, although she certainly doesn't have a right to make that choice for the rest of us.  

And the notion that she doesn't have the experience to be a vice president but that Obama, with the same lack of experience, has the experience to be president is beyond rational thought. That men would have the nerve to make this claim is not at all surprising, but that women would jump in there and do the same is painful at best.  I've always thought that women had a higher standard of fairness, but some of the things I've read and heard on the networks makes me wonder if that was wishful thinking. 

In the end, platform is what drives most voters, but all in all Sarah Palin appears to be a strong, intelligent, capable woman, and I'm delighted to see a woman on a national ticket.  Good for McCain!.

mke

This presidential race just got interesting.  I'd be interested in hearing from our Alaska members, I think there are a couple.

Anonymous

Months ago we talked about Palin (thank you Susie), and I believe AlaskaDeb didn't want her to leave.  I believe her approval rating is around 80%

Anneshirley, geez, woman!  Where have YOU been.  Don't you know that women can be harder on women than even men are.  Meaning...some women like to pick apart other women.  I have a friend who does not like going to women doctors.  The reason?....because they're a woman.  However, my friend is KINDA wierd.  She gets along just fine with men doctors.  I think women intimidate her.  Does that make sense?  You'd have to know her to know what I mean. 

anneshirley

Some good reasons for joining the Nader campaign:

• No compelling personal stories. For some reason, the major parties only run people who have compelling personal stories, so if you don't have cancer (preferably four times), been a prisoner of war (the longer the better), had a single mom (who spent at least one week on food stamps), had someone close to you die (sure we've all had deaths in our families but no drama, no deal), you're not a member of a minority group (women are welcome), you don't eat exotic foods (mooseburgers are acceptable), or haven't run marathons with at least one of your ten children strapped to your back, you're not a candidate. But those of you who are bored to death with the stories (I wonder if that would count as a compelling story) will be happy to support Ralph's candidacy. He doesn't have a story, or if he has one, the media really doesn't care, so you won't be forced to listen to it.
• No wife or daughters in the picture, so you'll be spared listening to a recitation of their clothing choices and cute sayings.
• Your contributions will not be used for fireworks or Greek temples. Now some of us have nothing against fireworks (on the 4th) or Greek temples (in Greece, in the Parthenon), but not at political conventions when we have a federal minimum wage of $6.55 an hour and a gallon of heating oil costs $4.99. Ralph will use your money to remind both parties that we have serious issues to address and that Hollywood glitiz won't solve them, But the really good news is that Ralph doesn't throw a convention and even if he did the media wouldn't cover it.
• You won't have to watch hours of TV guessing at his vice presidential pick. Nader picked Matt Gonzalez months ago without fanfare, and with amazement, you'll learn that Gonzalez has more experience than the Democratic nominee or the Republican vice presidential nominee, and for any of you who actually admit that "the poor ye shall always have with you," unlike Frick and Frack, Gonzalez fought to create a minimum wage in San Francisco which includes a mechanism for yearly cost of living adjustments. (Considered the highest in the country, currently the wage is $9.36 per hour).
• Ralph is of the male persuasion, with assumedly male parts, so you won't have to listen to endless comments on (1) why women will only vote for those with the same parts, or (2) why women are insulted that politicians think that women will only vote for those with the same parts. And with Ralph, they'll be no comments on his red open-toed shoes, with fairy sprinkles, his traveling pants suits (although you might be wondering why he doesn't send his suits to a dry cleaner more often), his fat legs, his hair style (doesn't have much left anyway), or his horse laugh. His supporters aren't sure if he knows how to laugh!

You won't be constantly harrassed with emails from his campaign, just one or two a week, unlike other campaigns. (Yesterday, I received the following emails from the Obama campaign: one from Michele, one from Barack, one from Hillary, one from Obama's campaign manager, and it was a slow day. And you can't stop them, although I've certainly tried.)

Best of all, you'll never have to hear that he sends a thrill up Chris Matthews leg, or listen to Keith Olbermann denigrate him-not until after the elections should Keith's candidate lose. But even there, it will probably be Hillary's fault so Ralph may get a pass.

And in all seriousness, if you think the Democrats have given up on helping the poor and disadvantaged, if you're tired of war, whether waged by Democrats or Republicans, and you really want renewable energy independence, vote for Ralph, get those number ups so that in four years from now he will get federal funding and (maybe) a place on the national stage.

Anneshirley

anneshirley

About Sarah Palin!  I've finally finished reading all that seems to be out there on Sarah Palin, and although I thought her anti-choice/pro-life stance was regrettable but understandable (lots of women are strongly against abortion and she is the mother of five) but OMG and I'll throw in WTF as well, she's an advocate of teaching Creationism in the schools!!!  Is there no end to the folly we are asked to put up with in the  name of political expediency? The experience factor is ridiculous when put forward by the Democrats, considering the non-experience of their own nominee, and the attacks on her because she was a beauty contestant and wears open-toed red shoes are just plain sexist, but a Creationist!   So why isn't this all over the airwaves?

Dig up Spencer Tracy and Frederick March!  Since the politicians don't seem to care, perhaps Hollywood can take a shot at this! 

Jaybird627

Anneshirley, I'm moving to another country.....

(I actually would if I could)

And, I'm STILL not voting for either 'major' party candidate!

shokk

Anneshirley why in the world would you be surprised that Sarah Palin believes in Creationism?......She is a true Conservative............If you think that Hollywood is going to shame her or ridicule her for her beliefs then John McCain is going to be sitting in the Oval Office for sure in January 09.........be careful for what you wish for.............You do realize that the combination of Hollywood and Faculty Loungers is what makes us average middle state Americans get up and vote on the second Tuesday in November, right?.............Ridiculing people for believing in a High Power is not the right tactic..............implying that somehow we are stupid because we believe in Creation only empowers us.................and whether you want to admit it or not New York State and California do not decide whom is going to be President of the United States..........Shokk

anneshirley

Jay, I'm there with you, really, probably Italy when we can sell this house. However, I don't think it will be necessary if Obama wins. He won't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

Shokk, I thought your signature was a joke; sorry to learn it's not. I'm not a believer--any more, but I was raised Catholic and practised until I was 30. I had a very religious mother, and the best person I've ever know in true goodness and true belief--she practised the tenets of her relgion until she died at 89, and didn't echo them, so be assured I would never ever ridicule people for believing in a higher power; it makes many of them extraordinary people. But I will ridicule people who ridicule science and knowledge. I believe you wrote earlier how happy you are to be an American and the medicines that keep you going--which definitely owe their being to science and not to Creationists! Catholics believe in a higher power (and I might that the Catholic religion is the forerunner to all Christian religions--and they sure don't believe in Creationism.) This has nothing to do with a belief in a higher power. The Church teaches very emphatically that science and religion complement each other; they don't fight each other, so the Church, with the evidence to show otherwise, no longer teaches that the world is flat, and it certainly doesn't teach a literal interpretation of the bible. And neither do most of the Christian religions of this world. And "Inherit the Wind," the movie I was referring to actually did have an impact in this country, in pointing out the ridiculousness of the literal interpretation of the bible, and as I remember it had an impact on helping to change laws in some states. There's more to Hollywood, you know, than Ronald and Arnold!

True conservatives would be highly insulted to be lumped in with Creationists. I've know many in my life (including one brother), and they do not believe in a literal interpretation of the bible; a belief in Creationism is not what made Barry Goldwater a conservative.

I was delighted when McCain put Palin on his ticket, even knowing she was anti-choice, but now that I know more things about her, I am shocked. And I'm not feigning it, as I do at times. I do so want a cure for cancer and all the ills in this world, and if Palin were to lead this country we'd be further back than Bush. God forbid!

shokk

Anneshirley one of the cutest things anyone has ever said to me was when you said I hated science..........actually I love science.........everything about it..........I respect it..........My oldest is a Neuroscience Major in college..........but what I don't like is when someone is ridiculed for their beliefs............how in the world can you possibly know without a doubt that creation doesn't exist?...........how can you possibly know that God doesn't exist?..............You have your beliefs and even though I do believe in God I do respect your belief that you don't...............if we all believed the same thing not only would this world be extremely boring but we would not have the advancements in science that all of us cancer survivors have had.............many may still believe that the world is flat.........there is no way to split an atom or any of the other things that have happen to get us to this place today when we can watch a hurricane come ashore and take action to protect ourselves............all I am saying is you can have respect for Palin or not...........that is your choice............but to think that she is stupid because she  believes in Creationism is very short sighted on your part but you certainly have that right as an American........this is your science hating Conservative bc sister..........Shokk

anneshirley

Shokk--I'm not arguing with the notion of creation, or that a God created the world.  I don't believe it, but as I said earlier I respect those who do.  I continued to take my mother to chiurch whenever she visited me or I visited her and never at any time pushed my beliefs onto her.  I wouldn't do that, but I do not respect beliefs that go in the face of everything we know to be fact.  And it's fact that one cannot literally interpret the bible, or it takes a great book and turns it into a fairy tale, which I don't think believers want to do.  The seven days of creation are viewed by most people who believe as a metaphor for the millions of years that it took the earth to evolve.  And it makes sense from a writer's point of view as we always use metaphor and analogy when writing.   Creationism, as  a religion, is not going forward; it's going backwards, so the only short-sight here is Palin's.

Further, I was sympathetic to that group in Texas when their compound was raided.  I believe that people have a right to their beliefs, even those I find totally weird, so long as they don't harm others (and I am aware there was some question of child abuse there), but I certainly wouldn't want one of those women on a national ticket, and in the same respect I don't want Palin on a national ticket, and yes, I equate the two.  Palin's belief in Creationism is also the basis for her denial of global warming, and that belief does harm people.  If the Bush Administration had taken global warming seriously, we would have done something about it sooner.  And eight years does make a difference, a huge difference.  The latest reports on the melting of artic ice is freightening.  Warming is occurring so much more quickly than any scientists had expected a decade ago and we have to act now. If Palin becomes president (a lot more likely than that Biden will, considering McCain's age), and her beliefs are sincere--I give her that--we will have a president faced with either acting on her own beliefs or those of scientists she doesn't believe.  Which way do you think she'll go?

If I sound angry it's not at you (I allways enjoy our talks) but I am really pissed at McCain, as I thought he had some integrity and I wouldn't have wanted to shoot myself if he were elected, but now I don't have even that.   It's depressing to find that there are so many panderers in this world, and of course every four years I'm reminded of it more than ever.   

shokk

Why are you angry at McCain?........He was in desperate need to secure the Religious right...........as Conservatives we were not happy about McCain.......for us he was going to be a very bitter pill to swallow.............he has done a brilliant move as far as we are concern...........maybe it's your own party that has really made you angry ............I think that this move by McCain has made the Democrat party realize what a huge mistake it has made by not going with Hillary...........IMO she would have still had a change against a McCain/Palin ticket............I don't think that Obama/Biden will...........you were never going to vote for McCain...............he is still pro life which goes against your fundamental beliefs about pro choice.............do you feel like the Democrats have been out played?............Shokk 

anneshirley

I'm furious at the Democrats--angry is far too mild.  Yes, he did outplay the Democrats, but only if she doesn't make any major gaffes before the 4th of November.  I still don't think McCain can win.  He had a lukewarm conservative base before Palin, but they would still have voted for McCain, and votes aren't recorded as hot or warm or cold, they're just votes, up or down.  I don't believe that many fiscal Republicans will vote for him now--I hope. 

And no, I wouldn't have voted for McCain in any case, but that's not what upsets me so much.  I still have to live with the president, whether Republican or Democrat.  I could have lived with McCain without shuttering every time he came on TV. I couldn't do that with Bush, which is why I left the country after he was elected.  It was too too painful.  And now if McCain is elected, I'll also look at him and think he never really believed the things he said--it was just for votes.

And mind you, that's exactly what I now believe about Obama, and for the same reason.  He also is pandering to the right wing in this country.  At least with McCain I thought he was (somewhat) sincere.  Oh, well, time for me to grow up I guess. 

suzfive

I don't believe that Palin is a creationist - apparently some schools in Alaska wanted to add creationism to the curriculum and she stated that she was not opposed to it being taught - as long as it was taught with evolution.

There are even scientists who are skeptical about global warming. I don't think her views on this are as important as McCain's and the Republican Platform.

anneshirley

For absolute sure she will be questioned thoroughly during the debates about her beliefs in both creationism and global warming, and she'll have to have an answer that doesn't offend either her base or independents and fiscal Republicans.  Perhaps they should hire the people who vetted Obama (if it's not a natural talent) on how to say everything, while saying nothing. LOL

Everything I've read says she is a believer in creationism; and she also allows few exceptions on abortion, including incest and rape, a position that even rankles women who are somewhat lukewarm on choice. She'll have hard row and I don't think she can do it! 

anneshirley

Some Republicans are thrilled about Palin's 80% approval rating in Alaska, but I thought it was now down to 67%.  Just wanted to mention that most governors get very high approval ratings in their first year, and then the ratings start to go down, and down, as reality sets in and bills have to be voted on and vetoed.   It's interesting that one of the few politicians to keep high approval ratings, even in his darkest days, was Bill Clinton.  With a stronger conscience he would have gone down in history as not only one of the greatest politicians of all times, but the greatest president.  Unlike me, my husband continued to admire him even after he turned so right, and he was very angry that I didn't pull the presidential lever in 1996.  He won't forgive the Democrats, in particular Obama, for branding Clinton a racist. He says he won't vote this year, not even for Nader. For him, the trashing of Bill as a racist was at least equal to the Willy Horton racism practised by the Republicans against Dukakis.  

shokk

Anneshirley I have never for one minute considered Bill Clinton to be a racist............I think Jesse Jackson has displayed more of a racist attitude then Bill Clinton ever has but with that said once Bill Clinton lost both the House and Senate in 1993 to majority of Republicans the only way he ever was going to get anything done was to move to the middle.............he had no choice...........he was a lame duck..........and of course that was reaction to Hillary's health care plan at the time.......remember the saying..........we didn't elect her to be President..............she scared people..............even though for years I believe that she was the one running the Governorship in Arkansas............it was said that during Bill Clinton's Rhodes Scholarship days that she was the one writing his papers and doing his studies for him.............there is no question that she is brilliant............and it's funny how you have accused the Democrat's of moving to far to the right I feel exactly the same way about Republicans and moving to far to the Left........I felt like President Bush made a big mistake going to Washington thinking he could get along with the Washington Democrats like he did with the Texas Democrats who are on the most part very conservative..........When he had Ted Kennedy write the first Education Reform bill in the first few months he was in office I knew he had made a big mistake in MO............Shokk

saluki

Anne--I've had a longer time to listen to Bobby Jindal and his views very much like Palin's.  I may not agree but there are also many issues where I can agree and certainly appreciate the judgment and integrity.........You only have to listen to Jindal to know that this is so far removed from Bush/Cheny---light years.   From listening to Palin--actually listening I get the same feeling..........

She deserves to be heard in context......She is a very different candidate.  Mind you not one you will vote for----but she is definitely impressive.

I think it was Dick Morris who said that Hillary's powerful speech clearly said to the Democratic party loud and clear--should Obama lose don't even think of anyone else on that ticket but me in 2012---In a I told you so election....................