Crappy veins

Boo46

Crappy veins

Boo46

Does anyone know any way to improve your veins after all the treatments we've been through.

I am almost 2 years post DX and went today for my yearly breast MRI. I had a right mastectomy and axillary discection so the right arm is off limits. My chemo port has long since been removed. It took 4 sticks, 2 blown veins and 1 area of infiltrated contrast before enough contrast could be infused to complete the study. By that time I was in tears from frustration as much as discomfort.

I try all the tricks like drinking lots of water beforehand, keeping that arm dependent, warm packs etc. Every blood draw and test leaves me feeling like a dart board. I look longingly at the beautiful large veins in my right hand and arm. (I know, I know, I won't ).

I guess I thought (hoped) my veins in my left arm would start to recover now that I'm not on active treatment and I'm not stuck as often.

Ok thanks - needed to vent

Any hints, knowledge, therapy, magic, oldwives tales, voodoo etc that anyone has found?????

I'm open to all options in my quest for strong plump visible veins.

Sue

Binney4

Yike, Boo, what a morning! Sure hope you stopped by Starbucks after for a chocolate chip frappucino

No old wives, but an "old PT" tale: use a hard rubber ball in your palm and squeeze, squeeze, squeeze as much as possible all day, every day. Supposed to make the veins stronger. Don't know if it works or not, since I have lymphedema in both arms and they have to use my feet for these things. Only other things not on your excellent list of pre-draw how-tos is low-dose aspirin for a day or two beforehand, if it's okay with your medical conditions and the procedure you're facing (doesn't work for surgery or colonoscopy, where they're trying to keep you from bleeding) and...well, try to relax your arm (yeah, right!) Deep breaths, pleasant thoughts, that sort of thing.

Sure hope your strong-plump-visible-vein quest ends in a happy-ever-after!

Binney 

sccruiser

Sue,

I sort of know how you feel. Everytime I go in for my neck injections, the surgery nurse assigned to me usually calls the more "experienced" nurse over to get the IV started. Now I'm told that my one good vein they can find has a lot of "scar tissue" in it and that this happens often. It seems my left arm (good one) is my dominant and has hard to find veins, while my right is great but off limits because of LE!! sucks big time! If I went through what you just went through they'd have to knock me out before they even tried that many times on me as they did on you.

{{{{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}}}} 

snowyday

My viens are cooked from chemo on the left side they finally put in a picc after most of the viens in my arms collasped. The now use the top of the right hand because the viens seem to have come back up, only problem is they roll so I also feel like a pin cushion, but Binney said they use her feet, so next time I go they can use my feet, if I would have known that before I never would have let them use me as a pin cushion in the first place. So I'm just going to tell feet or nothing!

shiny

Hi BOO46,

I recently went for some blood tests and my veins are seriously useless post treatment. The phlebotomist sugested  used my foot right away and it was a sinch! Now I won't consider giving anybody my one "doable" arm, it's the foot right away.( I was also having hot flushes and in boots that morning, so the nurse said the vein was nice and warm which also helps. )

Last time I was in hospital, and after may unsuccessful and painful attempts to get a vein, the specialist nurse put some local anesthetic on the area she wanted to try. I relaxed as I knew it woudn't hurt nearly as much and she was successful.

Hope one of those works for you next time.

take care,

shiny

Boo46

Hi Binney - ok low-dose asprin therapy it is for my next vampire visit. I'll also get "stress ball" and start a pumping. Both sound like great ideas. The relax part works fine till the first stick fails then it's all down hill from there. Ya know I have great veins in my feet but noone will touch them without a specific Dr's order and maybe not even then I'm told. Thanks for the ideas.

Grace - Neck injections!!! Owww that sounds awful! Hugging you right back.

Sue

lvtwoqlt

Sue, I would go for the feet, have the doctor write it in your record that your veins are too bad to use the arms. I had bilat with SNB done last June and in Nov when I had my exchange surgery, the anestologist told me that it had to be in the doctors orders so I let him put it in my arm but when I went in for my nipples in December, there was a different anest. and when I made my request to put it in my feet because of the SNB on both sides. He said sure I will try but if I can't get it in your feet I will have to use the arms. He was successful getting it in one foot. Nothing was said about needing doctor's orders to put it in your feet. I think that it has a lot to do with the experience with the annest who is putting in the IV and if they feel comfortable putting it in your feet.

Sheila

Boo46

Thanks for all the great ideas ladies.

Snowy - Are the not able to draw blood from a pic line? Is it for infusions only?

Well if all the stress ball pumping doesn't seem to help I'll try to get a script for a foot draw when my labs are due in July.

I have a huge swollen bruise on my arm this evening where the contrast leaked out of my vein. They tell me it is not caustic and will absorb without causing damage like the chemo drugs can. Hope they are right.

Hugs to you all,

Sue

NarberthMom

One other suggestion -- go to the chemo floor and ask the chemo nurses to put in the IV line. I allow techs only one try at my veins before heading over to the chemo nurses.

Member_of_the_Club

I just had an MRI and the nurse commented on my nasty veins. She did it on the first stick, but she's an old pro. I was surprised because I thought the veins eventually healed -- I'm three years out. I actually have a vague memory of a chemo nurse telling me that. Does anyone know about this?

trk_koa

I now always ask the chemo nurses to do it for me. At my first breast MRI, the techs, ER nurses, "experts" did 6 sticks and blew them all. (BTW, don't ever let them try at the base of your thumb - hurts like h*ll). I consider myself a fairly tough cookie, but I was in tears and refused to let anyone try again. I insisted on being rescheduled so that I could let the veins and all the bruises heal. The next time I stopped by the infusion center and the chemo nurses (one has 20 years as an IV nurse) were glad to start my IV for me - first try and painless. I'll never let the techs stick me ever again.

Nancy

Tigwin

hi, I do not have the best veins so I always ask them to use a "Butterfly", it is a needle with little wings attached...the needle is very small and it helps.  Hope that works for you.  Also...drink the water two to three days in advance...so you are very hydrated.

iodine

 I second the butterfly needle.  Makes a huge difference.  I heat up a wet wash rag, in a zip lock bag in the microwave, put a dry one under it , apply it to my right hand, pull on an oven glove, (you can quit laughing now) and then put on a rubber band over my wrist kinda tight.

then I drive to the dr's office or what ever and hang my hand down below my waist.

I look like a complete fool, but I'm finally getting a vein!!!!!  Besides, there are so many damn tests that require you to be NPO after midnight, and there ya go---dehydrated!

After all that I have to demand they go find a butterfly needle before I'll let them stick me.  Oh, so much FUN!

2up

ask the iv certified (only) nurses to rub your arms down with iodine after they've placed the tourniquet .......... it's an old school trick for finding hidden veins ......... works most every time, and saves a painful foot insertion!

heat packs, as dotti said above, are invaluable as well. 

scorpio

You guys are sooo right! It hurts soooo much.

After chemo was finished I had to do 12 months of herceptin and I learned real quickly to ask my onc for a perscription for pain pills. I still take them before any test I know involves an IV. I don't like taking a pain pill cuz it messes me up for the rest of the day, but I know that there's no way they can get the IV in without the pain pill.

O.K. here's what I don't understand. Before all my surgeries they gave me a local before putting in the IV-problem solved. Now my doc has no problem prescribing me pain meds(a narcotic) but the IV nurses are not allowed to use a local before the IV.

I admit to becoming very cynical about bc treatments, but what's with this hesitancy to use a local? Could it be the  ins.compaines don't cover the cost of a local? If they were just up front with us about the reason. I'd like the option of paying for it myself(if that really is the reason).

It really really hurts...I'm sure many of you have been brought to tears like me and the anxiety makes it worse. I don't know...It's crazy.

Scorpio

sccruiser

I too don't understand why locals aren't used when starting an IV. At the surgery center where I go for the neck injections, they use lidocaine before insert of IV. Why aren't they doing that for all the others here on this thread complaining about the pain? The lidocaine makes it almost painless. Only once did I not have lidocaine. The nurse said that she could put in the lidocaine and what happens is the vein "disappears," or she could just go for it and get it in--I told her to go for it--it hurt like hell--I won't do that again--I'm a wimp!!

Hope someone here can answer the question about the numbing first and why it's not done everywhere?

Sue--the neck injections aren't too bad--description is scary as hell--but I'm floating out there in la-la land--can hear the doc talk to me, but feel nothing--I could get addicted to the anesthesia I think! I'm useless for the rest of the day, and dh has to take a few hours off in the am to take me and bring me home--but the reduction in pain from breast lymphedema is amazing with the injections. I would be on serious opiods if not for these and my other pain meds!!

This pain management doc is amazing. His expertise with pain meds and these special neck injections have changed my life from one of not leaving the house, to being able to walk, swim and garden. He studied at UCLA, and only does them with x-ray equipment, so he can get the lidocaine directly to the nerve and not paralyze me or effect my ability to swallow. Some docs do not use the equipment and the risk is great.

But I'm such a wimp, I take Valium for my dental cleanings--and if the dentist has to do any drilling I ask for Halcion!! So, you can see that the neck injections aren't as scary as they sound--at least to me! LOL 

otter

scorpio, I've only had a local anesthetic for one of my i.v. cath placements, and that was the one for my mast/SNB surgery.  The nurse injected a little bleb of one of the 'caines right up against the vein, and then when she stuck in the i.v. cath.  It was amazing--it didn't hurt at all!

I told her I didn't know it was possible for an i.v. catheterization to not hurt.  I also asked why that wasn't standard procedure for inserting i.v. caths.  She said only certain people are allowed to do the local anesthetic/i.v. cath procedure.  I don't know what kind of special permission or training it takes, but I wish everybody had it.

otter 

iodine

Well, personally, I've never seen locals given for regular IV sticks, but there are a lot of things I've not seen.

I have seen locals given for IV caths, or arterial sticks, or in the neck, that sort of thing, for deep vessels or when a huge bore needle is going to be used. (too bad that they don't do it for donating blood, too)

I never used to hate sticks or have them hurt as much as they do now.  I do believe that after all the surgeries, sticks, painful testing, etc, etc, that people who HAD a high pain tolerance, loose that tolerance.  I've decided I will never again be "tough" and "gut it out".  No matter what it is, I will take the easiest and least painful way of doing anything from now on. 

I got no gold stars for being tough in the past and going thru crap without compliant, it won't be happening again!

Boo46

Oh Dottie I so agree. My pain tolerance is just gone. I thought I was pretty tough at the begining of all this when it came to physical pain but after 2 years I am a total wimp.

Sue

SheriH

Hi Sue!  I just saw this conversation.  I wanted to say hi and then give my crappy veins saga.  I have a "good" arm and a "bad" arm.  The arm I can use has exactly one good vein.  If I just need to do routine bloodwork, it works just fine.  If I need an iv that needs to stay in for more than a day, like after surgery, it blows and I'm sunk.  One time I had done bloodwork, then went for an mri and since my only vein had already been used they couldn't do the contrast.  They had to call over to the er and get a "specialist" to do it.  I hate being a pincushion, too.

It sounds like you've gotten some good advice and I sure hope you find some success. 

otter

I think Dotti is right, but it's not my pain tolerance that has changed.  It's simply my tolerance for people who can't hit a vein when that's their job.

I know, everybody is trying to do their job; and some people are way better at it than others.  So let the bad ones go find someone else to annoy.  I think we've been way too tolerant and forgiving of bad sticks.  We sit there (or lie there) patiently, without screaming or biting anyone, and let somebody stick and push and twist and realign the needle in hopes that some blood will come out.  I once had a phlebotomy tech try to thread an i.v. needle up a nerve in my wrist, instead of the vein that was next to it.  It's amazing that she is still alive.

Well, no more.  If the person can't hit the vein, let them find someone who can.  Maybe some people ought to be sent back for "remedial venipuncture" lessons--they can go practice on cadavers or rubber mannequins some more, or on each other, as I've heard they sometimes do in school.

Another thing that has p***ed me off lately is venipuncture people who put those Penrose drain-tourniquets on so tight that they almost cut through the skin.  My upper arms are fairly slender and muscular, and my veins stand out really well even before the tourniquet is on.  Even so, the last 3 people who've stuck me for blood-draws have wrapped and tied the darn tubing so tight that it left a white, indented ring around my arm that didn't go away for like 20 minutes.  Imagine if I'd been stupid enough to let them do that on my mast/SNB side, with its lifetime risk of LE?  Tying the tourniquet that tightly is totally not necessary--I've had other nurses draw from my arm without a tourniquet at all, because my veins are so nice and plump.

Last month when I went for a wbc check before my chemo tx, the venipuncture person (I hate to even suggest it might have been a nurse) tied the tubing so tight that it really hurt.  Then she got around to arranging her blood tubes in the rack and finding a needle and alcohol swab--after my arm was already choked.  So, I said, "Hey, that's way too tight!" and I pulled at the tubing to loosen it.  Did she apologize?  NO.  She said, "Well, it wouldn't have cut in so much if you had left your sleeve down.  I meant for it to go over your shirt sleeve, not on your skin."  Well, duh.  Didn't she see that she was wrapping the tubing on the bare skin of my arm, rather than over the shirt sleeve I had pushed up?  If she's that oblivious, maybe she should find something else to do that doesn't involve live people.

Sometimes I think those people are just mean and they really don't care if they hurt us.  My chemo nurses, OTOH, have been heavenly.

otter 

[Note added in edit:  I'm sorry.  I just realized this post probably should have been in Traci's bitch thread.  I guess I'm just really aggravated about the venipuncture thing, especially now that I can't let them use my surgery arm.  It's even worse because I need to get all my Taxotere/Cytoxan treatments through veins in my hand on the "good" side (along with all the blood draws and BP measurements in that arm).  Two down, two to go.]

iodine

My other gripe is about BP cuffs.  I always get the less trained person who pumps up the cuff to 200*ouch*.  As a nurse myself, I absolutely KNOW this is NOT necessary.  I have a relatively normal BP, even low sometimes, but am a large woman and I guess they feel they have to go for the gold!

But just try to tell someone that.

As far as sticks: they get ONE try, no more.