Judging a man by his.....books?

Anonymous

Judging a man by his.....books?

Anonymous

My oh-so-clever daughter sent me this article today. Unbeknownst to her, I had just broken up with a man who couldn't warm up to Augusten Burroughs. Since this was the second dude in a row who turned out to be a jerk AND didn't like Burroughs' writing, perhaps that will be my new litmus test? Instead of "what's your sign?" I'll ask "what did you think of Dry? Hmmmmmmm..... Anyway, I found this article most amusing and sent it to all of my literary chicas. One has determined that she will use part of it in her classes tomorrow. Enjoy!

Essay

It's Not You, It's Your Books

•  
  • By RACHEL DONADIO Published: March 30, 2008

Some years ago, I was awakened early one morning by a phone call from a friend. She had just broken up with a boyfriend she still loved and was desperate to justify her decision. "Can you believe it!" she shouted into the phone. "He hadn't even heard of Pushkin!"

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Paper Cuts Blog: What are your literary dealbreakers?

We've all been there. Or some of us have. Anyone who cares about books has at some point confronted the Pushkin problem: when a missed - or misguided - literary reference makes it chillingly clear that a romance is going nowhere fast. At least since Dante's Paolo and Francesca fell in love over tales of Lancelot, literary taste has been a good shorthand for gauging compatibility. These days, thanks to social networking sites like Facebook and MySpace, listing your favorite books and authors is a crucial, if risky, part of self-branding. When it comes to online dating, even casual references can turn into deal breakers. Sussing out a date's taste in books is "actually a pretty good way - as a sort of first pass - of getting a sense of someone," said Anna Fels, a Manhattan psychiatrist and the author of "Necessary Dreams: Ambition in Women's Changing Lives." "It's a bit of a Rorschach test." To Fels (who happens to be married to the literary publisher and writer James Atlas), reading habits can be a rough indicator of other qualities. "It tells something about ... their level of intellectual curiosity, what their style is," Fels said. "It speaks to class, educational level."

Pity the would-be Romeo who earnestly confesses middlebrow tastes: sometimes, it's the Howard Roark problem as much as the Pushkin one. "I did have to break up with one guy because he was very keen on Ayn Rand," said Laura Miller, a book critic for Salon. "He was sweet and incredibly decent despite all the grandiosely heartless ‘philosophy' he espoused, but it wasn't even the ideology that did it. I just thought Rand was a hilariously bad writer, and past a certain point I couldn't hide my amusement." (Members of theatlasphere.com, a dating and fan site for devotees of "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead," might disagree.)

Judy Heiblum, a literary agent at Sterling Lord Literistic, shudders at the memory of some attempted date-talk about Robert Pirsig's 1974 cult classic "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," beloved of searching young men. "When a guy tells me it changed his life, I wish he'd saved us both the embarrassment," Heiblum said, adding that "life-changing experiences" are a "tedious conversational topic at best."

Let's face it - this may be a gender issue. Brainy women are probably more sensitive to literary deal breakers than are brainy men. (Rare is the guy who'd throw a pretty girl out of bed for revealing her imperfect taste in books.) After all, women read more, especially when it comes to fiction. "It's really great if you find a guy that reads, period," said Beverly West, an author of "Bibliotherapy: The Girl's Guide to Books for Every Phase of Our Lives." Jessa Crispin, a blogger at the literary site Bookslut.com, agrees. "Most of my friends and men in my life are nonreaders," she said, but "now that you mention it, if I went over to a man's house and there were those books about life's lessons learned from dogs, I would probably keep my clothes on."

Still, to some reading men, literary taste does matter. "I've broken up with girls saying, ‘She doesn't read, we had nothing to talk about,'" said Christian Lorentzen, an editor at Harper's. Lorentzen recalls giving one girlfriend Nabokov's "Ada" - since it's "funny and long and very heterosexual, even though I guess incest is at its core." The relationship didn't last, but now, he added, "I think it's on her Friendster profile as her favorite book."

James Collins, whose new novel, "Beginner's Greek," is about a man who falls for a woman he sees reading "The Magic Mountain" on a plane, recalled that after college, he was "infatuated" with a woman who had a copy of "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" on her bedside table. "I basically knew nothing about Kundera, but I remember thinking, ‘Uh-oh; trendy, bogus metaphysics, sex involving a bowler hat,' and I never did think about the person the same way (and nothing ever happened)," he wrote in an e-mail message. "I know there were occasions when I just wrote people off completely because of what they were reading long before it ever got near the point of falling in or out of love: Baudrillard (way too pretentious), John Irving (way too middlebrow), Virginia Woolf (way too Virginia Woolf)." Come to think of it, Collins added, "I do know people who almost broke up" over "The Corrections" by Jonathan Franzen: "‘Overrated!' ‘Brilliant!' ‘Overrated!' ‘Brilliant!'"

Naming a favorite book or author can be fraught. Go too low, and you risk looking dumb. Go too high, and you risk looking like a bore - or a phony. "Manhattan dating is a highly competitive, ruthlessly selective sport," Augusten Burroughs, the author of "Running With Scissors" and other vivid memoirs, said. "Generally, if a guy had read a book in the last year, or ever, that was good enough." The author recalled a date with one Michael, a "robust blond from Germany." As he walked to meet him outside Dean & DeLuca, "I saw, to my horror, an artfully worn, older-than-me copy of ‘Proust' by Samuel Beckett." That, Burroughs claims, was a deal breaker. "If there existed a more hackneyed, achingly obvious method of telegraphing one's education, literary standards and general intelligence, I couldn't imagine it."

But how much of all this agonizing is really about the books? Often, divergent literary taste is a shorthand for other problems or defenses. "I had a boyfriend I was crazy about, and it didn't work out," Nora Ephron said. "Twenty-five years later he accused me of not having laughed while reading ‘Candy' by Terry Southern. This was not the reason it didn't work out, I promise you." Sloane Crosley, a publicist at Vintage/Anchor Books and the author of "I Was Told There'd Be Cake," essays about single life in New York, put it this way: "If you're a person who loves Alice Munro and you're going out with someone whose favorite book is ‘The Da Vinci Code,' perhaps the flags of incompatibility were there prior to the big reveal."

Some people just prefer to compartmentalize. "As a writer, the last thing I want in my personal life is somebody who is overly focused on the whole literary world in general," said Ariel Levy, the author of "Female Chauvinist Pigs" and a contributing writer at The New Yorker. Her partner, a green-building consultant, "doesn't like to read," Levy said. When she wants to talk about books, she goes to her book group. Compatibility in reading taste is a "luxury" and kind of irrelevant, Levy said. The goal, she added, is "to find somebody where your perversions match and who you can stand."

Marco Roth, an editor at the magazine n+1, said: "I think sometimes it's better if books are just books. It's part of the romantic tragedy of our age that our partners must be seen as compatible on every level." Besides, he added, "sometimes people can end up liking the same things for vastly different reasons, and they build up these whole private fantasy lives around the meaning of these supposedly shared books, only to discover, too late, that the other person had a different fantasy completely." After all, a couple may love "The Portrait of a Lady," but if one half identifies with Gilbert Osmond and the other with Isabel Archer, they may have radically different ideas about the relationship.

For most people, love conquers literary taste. "Most of my friends are indeed quite shallow, but not so shallow as to break up with someone over a literary difference," said Ben Karlin, a former executive producer of "The Daily Show" and the editor of the new anthology "Things I've Learned From Women Who've Dumped Me." "If that person slept with the novelist in question, that would probably be a deal breaker - more than, ‘I don't like Don DeLillo, therefore we're not dating anymore.'"

Rachel Donadio is a writer and editor at the Book Review.

Jaybird627

Uh oh - I'm not a fan of Augusten Boroughs either....

Can I still be your friend???

Marin, I used to be a literary snob. Well, I still am kind of. If he only reads Popular Mechanics, at least he reads - right???

I do prefer men who are well-read AND like the kind of music that I like, but if he's at least knowledgeable about current events and can hold up his end of an arguement (I LOVE to argue!!!) then he gets a pass if he doesn't read much or like what I read. If he lets me read TO him (like from a magazine or newspaper) or if we read in bed together (love that, too) he gets bonus points!

JMO - I do know what you mean though!

(all this from Miss Date Vapid Younger Men)

Anonymous

I hear ya, Jaybird!

So, what I'm getting at here is what are your non-negotiable deal breakers, your litmus test(s), or what signs and/or commonalities do you look for in a potential date? Like, for me, not only would I want to share a love for literature and music, but I sort of "require" that the guy be interested in keeping himself fit and healthy. That would mean he exercises in some way, eats a decent diet, doesn't smoke and doesn't have a "spare tire" around his middle.

I guess after this last experience, I've learned that I should listen to a man who tells me that no one has ever called him "sweet" before, so that will be on my list of criteria too !

~Marin

BethNY

a guy that smokes has always been a deal breaker for me. 

Money can be a deal breaker.  I feel really strong about getting myself out of debt, and never going back there.  I would never get into a serious relationship with someone that had a lot of debt.  Debt=stress, and staying on top of my own finances is hard enough. 

Being late is another issue for me.  My mother raised me to be on time, borderline early in a psychotic way-- and I won't tolerate people that are always late.  Ugh.  I think it's so disrespectful.

Thinking about this, I actually have a pretty big list of deal breakers.  And I think it's worked to my advantage.  I guess some people would call it picky, but for me, knowing what I want, helps to weed through the losers faster.

And even the winners can turn out to be losers as we all know.

One thing to keep in mind though, is that when it comes to music and literature, if  a guy isn't into it at first, BUT OPEN to learning and experiencing new things-- well that should count extra.  That shows that they are not stuck in their ways, and have an interest in finding things to share with you.

mailman

Late?  Well that's a problem for lots of people.  The very nature of life and all that comes with our daily rituals can cause a person to  be late.  That said,  if its late all the time then that is time management issues.  My friend is always late and I got tired of making plans only to have to rush to get to the reservation.  Then we would have to have a drink just to relax and allow the stress to subside.  That all said,  debt?  I wouldn't avoid a dating a potential gal simply due to her debt issues.  I would however make it clear that she would have to live with the consequences of her choices and unfortunate unexpected expenses.  Don't make  your list to  long as you will find few men that are able to meet the high bar that you have set.  Unless you don't mind the possibility of never finding a man that can meet that standard. Not saying you are right or wrong but the fact is that the longer the list the smaller the pool of potential partners.  Just math is all.  My list?  It's getting longer all the time.  Most recent one added to my list?  To drop any date that appears unable to let things go.  I am so sick of living experiences that happened a long time ago.  A gal that holds onto trivial things I have no time for.  Life is just to short to focus on issues that have various points of  view ,  all of which can be viewed as legitimate but not necessarily accurrate in terms of perspective.  Lots of rambling here............good luck to you in your search.  I am going to find  a riding group of gals here in my area that I can ride with and see if things happen.

Jaybird627

Beth & Marin,

I, too, have a 'list' similar to both of yours. I am very selective in who I spend my time with.

I'm always on-time/early and find it extremely disrespectful of those who aren't. I see it as their control and/or disrespect issue and won't tolerate it.

I won't date overweight men. I'm (mostly) fit and in-shape so why should I settle for someone who isn't?

And, they have to like or at least not dislike my dogs.

Smoking is a not allowed either.

We all have lists and that's just biology. Animals look for their perfect mate also.

BethNY

Mailman-- (I just got engaged, so the list pretty much worked out for me)

The debt thing is HUGE.

Money is the reason people get divorced.  I watched my parents go through a bitter divorce, and I've had messed up money issues my whole life.

Cancer almost bankrupt me.  So for me to come back, and get myself not only out of debt, but with a nest egg and a plan for the future,I absolutely expect my mate to bring the same to the table.

When you get married you take on the other persons debt.  You become a team-- and for me, having a financial plan is setting up my relationship for success.

It's something I would never budge on.

oK--Here's a scenario for all of you guys...

So a friend of ours just started seeing this girl, its like 2 weeks-- so of course to soon to know anything other than that he really digs her.

So the other night, she tells him she is battling bulemia.  He asked us what we think he should do.

My advice was to get out now.  And my friends looked at me with shock.  They were like-- how would you feel if a guy wouldn't date you because of cancer?

And I still feel the same.  I feel like getting involved with someone battling an addiction/disease that especially comes with this girl physically harming herself, that's way more baggage than I would bargain for...

what are your thoughts?

Jaybird627

Beth, just the fact that your friend asked you what he should do definitely means he should let her go. If he knows anything about that disease then he should try to support her but it's too soon to make any kind of commitment unless he's prepared for the 'worst' which could mean anything depending on where her head is at concerning her recovery/treatment/etc.   JMO.....

Jaybird627

I had a lovely dinner with an 'ex' b/f (we were never serious and dated on-an-off for about a year) last night and I believe we're going to get together again soon!

FWIW, since he's an old friend I managed to look past the fact that he's 'large' (read tall but overweight). See? I'm not so shallow after all! Well, not too anyway!

Anonymous

Way to go, Jaybird....are you considering hooking-up with this guy? Maybe trying to get along with someone who is already a "friend" can work better than making  something from scratch? Different expectations, ya know?

Keep us informed!

~Marin

Jaybird627

Well, Marin, he was a lover for a short time about 4 years ago but we wanted different things so we kind of just stayed friendly, speaking a few times a year or just having casual dinners. We'll see where this goes, or not. He's smart, and a handy-man so I truly wouldn't mind having him around on a regular basis!

Anonymous

So Beth, I'd definitely like to weigh in on your question about your friend's bulimic gf. As many of you here already know, I'm a recovering alcoholic AND have a brief, early history of anorexia. In my lifelong pursuit of recovery, I have the privilege of sponsoring other female recovering addicts, many of them in very early recovery. It is always suggested and, I have found, almost always adviseable, for people in early recovery (as in the first 12 months or so) to avoid getting into relationships with memebers of the opposite sex. This is because the effort to let go of any addiction and the personal pathology that both results from and fuels it, is monumental and requires a great deal of focus. Distractions and complications, not to mention the drama that frequently accompanies romantic relationships only muddy the waters and create new anxieties. The repercussions can be devastating to the addict AND his or her partner. So, for this reason alone, Beth, I'd have to agree with you in your advice to your friend. He can't help her to recover....it needs to be her decision and her hard work. And he can't hope to engage in a healthy relationship with a sick woman....it just won't happen. I'd say that the best he can do is to encourage her to get help and offer to be a supportive friend. It's not the time in her life to be able to accept him as a lover.

Okay, I'm climbing down from my soapbox. It's JMO, FWIW.....

~Marin

LisaSDCA

I met an ex in a bookstore. It was good for a few years, nice to have someone who valued a good book. I ended up dumping him because of anger management issues. Now, that's a deal breaker for me. If a man ever touches me in anger he never touches me again. NO exceptions. And I don't just mean hitting. You don't shove me, you don't grab my arm, you don't keep me from leaving a room - you show me respect or I show you the door. 

I'm also with Beth on the debt thing. I have worked too hard to maintain my credit rating even through this era of cancer-induced poverty right now. I have no patience for a guy with all the toys and credit card debt he can't handle.

I can't abide smokers - that's a deal breaker. So is periodontal disease. That is preventable and fixable. I can't kiss a diseased mouth and I sure don't want it on my delicate parts. In fact, my sweet hot boytoy was a patient of mine before he was a lover (I had NO idea he was hitting on me; he was too gorgeous, too young  so I assumed he was just being a tease )

BTW, Beth, I agree with you about your friend's bulimic gf. It would be different if she had said to him "I'm currently in therapy for bulimia", but it doesn't sound like she's recovering, does it? Not meaning to sound like a bitch, but they do have treatment for that trouble - and in-patient works best.

Lisa

BethNY

I couldn't agree more about the bulemic girl.  I just couldn't get into a relationship with someone who was  actively pursuing their addictions.

The periodontal disease made me chuckle.  I'm a real stickler on hygiene-- especially mens fingernails, and mouth.  Just thinking about all those germs makes me gag a little.

Jaybird- keep us updated on future hang outs with this guy-- he sounds good.

Jaybird627

Well, Beth, since you asked.....

It was as it was before - not all that great. He's a nice enough guy and I enjoy his company but I just don't care for him as a lover (and I won't go into details as to why ). So we'll see what happens but for a few hours this afternoon it was all about ME and not the dogs or my daughter so that was nice but I'm still on the lookout for someone better!

Anonymous

Soooooo....back to deal breakers. I've been emailing with a few guys from plentyoffish and tangowire and have begun to notice some patterns (isn't it about time?). One thing I'm learning to detect pretty quickly is an underlying anger or a passive aggression in their profiles. They talk about all other women as if they're ball-busting whippers and imply that you/me are probably not that, but he'll be watching . The ones who talk about not wanting someone who only wants to spend his money are the most transparent and I've learned just to read "cheap" and move on. I also love the guys (and there are quite a few!) who say that they want "no drama." To me, that reads he's had a history of drama (and no one creates trouble on their own, right?) AND/or doesn't want to be bothered with any emotional expression whatsoever. The ones who "love sports" usually watch alot of TV (and do little else), and the ones with "average built" are often flabby. And then there's my favorite...."I'm passionate"...read that he's freakin' horny and hasn't gotten laid in forever! Finally, I'm beginning to "next" any guy who can't put a decent sentence together. He might not spell or use grammar effectively and to perfection, but I should get the impression that he has at least been graduated from high school, especially if he claims to be a physician or a lawyer .

And I've found this list in Marie Claire that adds a few more suggested deal breakers:

 "Next" him if he"

Is one of the three A's: an alcoholic, an addict, or an actor.

Leaves the table to trade some yen just as your sauteed tilapia arrives.

Incessantly one-ups: "Oh, you did Machu Picchu? Well, I just carried my backpack and my sherpa up Everest."

Exhibits road rage. Or rage of any kind.

Wears bigger earrings than you.

Wears sunglasses indoors.

Has ever worn jean shorts

Announces his intent to save himself for marriage.

Mispronounces "pinot noir." (Didn't he see Sideways?)

Sweats like Nixon. laughs like Bush, swears like Cheney, or evades like Gonzalez.

Grabs like Clinton.

Is a vegan

Asks shady, euphemism-laden questions, like whether you're "420-friendly" or if you "like to play."

Studies every line of a receipt as if it were T.S. Eliot.

Smacks your butt and asks the room loudly, "Can you believe that ass?!"

Thinks Imus was right.

Keeps a photo of his "Beamer" in his wallet.

Calls it a "Beamer."

Has anything by Kenny G, Barbra Streisand, or Rammstein in his iTunes.

Names any part of his anatomy.

Tells you that you look thinner with your clothes on. Or off.

Pauses during sex to check his BlackBerry.

Does two shots of tequila at the start of the evening.

Can't stop talking about his wife

Take note, my chicas!!!!

~Marin

BethNY

I'm LMAO... this list is priceless.

LorenaB

OMG, a friend of mine was corresponding with a guy on match.com who said he "wanted to play."  She just about refused to believe what he meant by "play" until he wrote to her, "well, I guess you do live sort of far away, even if we were just gonna fool around."  She was disgusted.  I told her, well, at least he's honest.  It's not what YOU want, but isn't it better than pretending he wants a relationship when the truth is that he ONLY wants to "play?"

Marin, I like your interpretation of "no drama."  I think you are right on -- I'm sure those guys believe that none of it was ever their fault.  And I am with you -- unless someone is not a native English speaker, I have a hard time with really bad grammar.

I cannot believe how lucky I got. I had a total of 3 first dates via the 'net after my H and I split up 2 years ago, plus a number of fun correspondences and a few interesting phone conversations.  Date #3 was my current boyfriend -- we've been together for a year.  We may not end up together forever -- in a year you may find me scoping out Plenty of Fish again -- but I'm pretty sure that bc is not what is going to drive him away.  He has really come around in the past few months-- he even sat with me during my first chemo treatment.  And he isn't afraid to touch me, either .

I never got as far as making a "must-have/can't have" list.  In my lifetime I've been close to many people with backgrounds vastly different from my own, and I've been pleasantly surprised at how much I have in common with them.  My ex-H didn't read fiction at all -- but he reads a lot of news and we talked all the time about politics and current issues and culture and language -- so having "books" in common didn't matter.  (Other stuff did - that's why we aren't married anymore!)  I think I'd have a hard time dating someone who was really far on the other end of the political spectrum from me, or terribly materialistic, or (dare I say this) really dumb.  And I wouldn't date a smoker.  But I don't have too many deal-breakers -- I wouldn't want to rule out someone with whom I could have an unexpected and wonderful connection.

Anonymous

Lorena....What a wise and thought-infused take on the issue! I just love your realistic optimism! Thanks for that.

 I was thinking some more about the age category of men I've been checking out. I had decided that those my age were more likely to be emotionally mature, sexually confident and, most importantly, not apt to call me "dude." Wrong (except for the dude part).....they seem to be highly emotionally constipated and slightly (or lots) psycho, with both traits deeply ingrained. So I'm thinking I might take another look at the 40-year olds and just accept being called "dude." Maybe it's worth it in order to avoid the too-much-belly and the too-much-baggage of the 50-year olds!

Then again, I could grow up myself and begin to accept Lorena's view that ruling out men based on a bunch of "dealbreakers" just limits the possibility of finding a kind-hearted, generous man. Hmmmmmmmm......

~Marin

Jaybird627

Marin, my though is this: we all have dealbreakers, including men. Sure, their list is probably shorter but they, too, are looking for someone in particular.

I won't bend on my no-smoking rule but I have given in on all the others and have found that I really like my list as I have it for a reason.

Men who are over-weight just don't appeal to me (the last one had man boobs and it was a total turn-off, not to mention hus huge belly!).

I do date outside of my 'prefered age range' but again, there is a reason I prefer what I prefer and am happiest when I stick closest to my list.

rock

Ouch.  I know nobody meant any harm but imagine you're a woman who is overweight and bulimic who is reading this.  Who smokes.  (And if you ARE that person, there's a place right here next to me.)

To quote the philosopher, Nikka Costa, "Everybody got their something..." 

Jaybird627

Hmmmm. Well. As I stated previously, we ALL have our preferences and we all know what we're willing to 'accept' so I stand by my posts.

I recently met a guy who smokes, but his on-line profile stated that he didnt! I still met him. So, dealbreakers aren't exactly that but I wouldn't get seriously involved with someone who didn't 'fit' most of the 'criteria' on my list. I think we're all entitled to our preferences. I'm short and bitchy - maybe most men don't prefer that???

Anonymous

Jaybird...you're hilarious! But rockthebald, it's so true that everyone has their dealbreakers and their preferences which is what this particular thread is all about- for us to list our own individual likes and dislikes. I mean, I have known quite a number of men who truly prefer larger women and wouldn't give me a serious glance. And there are women who love their men large and hairy. I say that variety is what it's all about, right?!

~Marin

Jaybird627

I find I'm still trying to find that balance of smart/physically fit/young. The last two guys I was with both smoke and while it's a deal-breaker relationship wise I guess it isn't so much when I need to get laid? The one I had wonderful conversations with but he lives in another state so who knows when I'll see him again (he's mostly a friend really) and the other lives here but is so young that he said (when I was trying to discuss politics with him) that he didn't really care who won this year's election and that he wasn't going to vote! I got nekkid with him anyway.....

Anonymous

WTG, Jay! IMO it's better to screw a guy who isn't gonna vote than one who plans to vote for whoever I think is "the other side." I wouldn't want to converse with him, of course, but indifference or ignorance is fine as long as it doesn't extend to the bedroom !

Jaybird627

I know what you're saying, Marin, I was just taken by his indifference. As a woman I get even more upset when women say they don't vote because we haven't had that 'right' for very long. I've always voted, even absentee once.

He's a nice young man - so what if we don't have the most intellectually stimulating conversations - as long as things get stimulated!

Anonymous

Exactly!

Jaybird627

Uh oh..........................

Okay, so my daughter gets to watch a very small amount of tv in the morning while I'm doing whatever. There's a new program on Disney that has 4 guys dancing and singing and teaching things (such as tooth brushing today) and I really got a good look at these guys and I think one of them is really cute!!!  (I think I need to get laid.....)