Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?

Reality

Celtic holidays are great! My landlord built a celtic maze in the woods behind our homes - it is awesome - there is a specific name for it, but my poor brain prevents me from thinking of it - Oh! It just came to me: a labyrinth! 

I know, I was thinking the same thing about the child who said that to my grandson - she really did not know any differently and I am certain she was not trying to be mean. She probably thought she was helping my grandson. 

Janeybw

I'll jump in with you guys!  Glad you're here.  Anadagram- I am an L&D nurse and you better believe that I always asked the parents' preference for things like baptism.  That was not right what they did and I'm sorry that you are left to think about it.  Although I am not religious, I would gladly do what I could for patients in accord with their beliefs because I felt that it was the right thing to do.  That also goes for people without beliefs.  Also, my children were subjected to over-zealous classmates when they were younger and also into HS.  They were pretty good at sticking up for themselves so I never stepped in, but I was tempted.  That is not what a 1st grader needs.

Sunflowers--I love your avatar.  I am a big sunflower fan--decor fills my kitchen.  The sight of them always brightens my day.

Nice to meet you ladies! 

Reality

Nice to meet you, Janeybw. Thanks for your supportive post. 

Sher 

3monstmama

notself I missed one question on the survey--the one about the Great Awakening.  I knew it was a Protestant movement in the US linked to all the revival meetings and tent preachers but couldn't remember (other than NOT Billy Graham) who was the leader.  I confess that the survey troubled me a bit--only the last question required me to think at all.  According to the article the actual survey had 37 questions.  I would really like to know the other 37 questions before I evaluate my own knowledge.  If they are all like "who led the Exodus," well then shudder but if they are all like the Great Awakening, well, I would not be surprised people didn't know the answer.

Anandagram, you bring back the memories!    At the time that I was attending the Missouri synod school, I was officially attending the Episcopal church which to my Missouri Synod classmates was barely passable.  so I got the going to hell speech too.

Worst experience of that nature was middle school age at girl scout camp.  Our group was invited to a southern baptist church for their annual picnic.  Of course for the experience we went to the service before (think anthropological purposes).  well it turned out that the evil preacher only invited us because he had observed one of the girls was jewish.  His sermon was complete hellfire damnation and how the jews killed jesus.  now fortunately the girl (who was my best friend at the time) was strong willed and sat in her seat glaring at him.  I sat next to her and glared too.  but the idea that an adult would invite a group of children to an event solely for the purpose of beating up on them?  ick.  Such fine christian values!

Story second:  my grandmother was a methodist.  When I was in grad school, I went to church with her one time (made her happy).  It happened to be the sunday that the missionaries were giving a presentation about their mission in Peru where they were busy saving the heathen CATHOLICS!!!  Set aside the issue of god/no god but now you are saying that your flavor of Christianity is the only one that leads to heaven?  It wasn't worth going into say, the jungle and converting the "pagans" to christianity, no, no it was more important to go to Lima and convert the heathen catholics. . . .riiiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttttt

What I do believe in is respecting other people's rights to believe what they will (probably why missionaries rub me the wrong way).  I was HORRIFIED to hear the story today on public radio about the youtube video about the Marines appearing to desecrate the Muslim corpse.  To me, this is what happens when so much time is spent demonizing a group of people & their beliefs--people stop behaving like human beings and revert to being animals. 

crazy4carrots

To me, this is what happens when so much time is spent demonizing a group of people & their beliefs--people stop behaving like human beings and revert to being animals. 

Maybe change that to "predatory" animals?

I sometimes think that it's actually a case of one-upmanship, as in "My way (belief) is better than your belief, ergo I'm better than you".   Pretty sad, IMHO.

Anonymous

oooohhhhh....a labyrinth....what a treasure to have access to one...

For those that don't ( and might be as lazy as I am, probably not, but maybe) - I have a Wooden Finger Labyrinth...got it YEARS age from the Isabella Catalog - it's a lovely, lovely wood, worn in places from, yes, my fingers...keep it hanging on the wall next to my "art" table - really love it.

Janeybw

I have a good friend who is from Uganda.  She told me their view of missionaries: "They came to our land with a book and when they were done, they had the land and all we were left with was the book."

Reality

Janeybw - I have a similar story from Ex husband's gramma - She is Seneca. I am not Native Amer., but lived on a Seneca Reservation for seven years. I have to run for now, but will definitely expand on this later this evening or in the a.m. re: Indian Schools and the missionaries....very sad.

CLC

Hello, all! 

I was raised atheist.  I have never even remotely thought there might be a god.  I get rather disgusted when people tell others what to do because that's what god wants.  I have little tolerance for religiosity.

However, I had an experience many years ago, when I worked with developmentally disabled adults.  One of the women I was working with was dying of cancer.  She'd been raised catholic and her family was quite devout.  About a year before she died, her mother died.  I was with her the night she died.  She was scared.  I felt no qualms at all at telling her that it was okay to go, because she would be with her mother again.  It put her completely at ease.  I always wondered at myself for finding that my empathy and wish to protect allowed me to lie to a woman who would simply accept anything I said.  I still, to this day, believe I did the absolute right thing.  But it leaves me wishing I could accept such a simple lie.   That I could tell my children such a simple lie.  But I cannot.  I could only do that for someone who believed it and was raised with it and could accept it easily.

On another note...I got a 93% on the quiz, too!

Hope you all are having a wonderful night!

Claire

marilyn113

Just found this thread!  I rarely tell people I'm a non-believer because it is so looked down upon.  So it's nice to find this group.

I think religion is what people use to explain things they can't understand.  However, I respect others' religious beliefs and sometimes envy the comfort they find in it during hard times.  To me god, heaven, hell, etc are fantasies. 

CLC, I would have done the same thing.  You said what brought her comfort even though you don't believe it yourself.  Since my diagnosis so many people have said they are praying for me.  I thank them.  If that's what makes them feel they are helping me, I'm not going to offend them by telling them it is a waste of time.

My "religion" is the golden rule.  It's how you treat others that matters, not whether you go to church every Sunday,

Janeybw

Claire-

You did exactly the right thing.  Your job was to care for your client and you did just that.  Your job was not to impose your beliefs (or lack thereof) on her.  I pray with patients if they ask me to--it's not about me.   

CLC

Thanks, ladies, for the vote of confidence...I know it was the right thing to do.  I just wish I could make it that easy on myself, and moreso, on my children...but, alas, I cannot.  What a strange and twisting path through life.  I guess I wouldn't have it any other way...:)

PlantLover

Welcome to all the new folks. 

It's so nice to see this thread so active and to have a place to share our stories.  It sure helps me not feel so alone. 

Warning before you start reading this ... I'm in a rambling mood, so my apologies up front.

You guys have shared so many stories that I can relate to.  I wish I had the presence of mind to comment to each of you individually, I just don't tonight.

Claire ... you absolutely did the right thing.  I also understand how you feel about sometimes wishing you could believe it.  Isn't it what we all want - to be with the people we love forever?  Oh how I wish it were true.  My husband is a Christian and I actually had a little bit of a melt down the other night when he and I were snuggling before bed.  I actually told him maybe I should try harder to believe just in case it would mean that we would still have a life together after death.  I know that just sounds crazy.

Oh ... and Claire, I wish the caregiver I had before my bi-lat surgery had been as thoughtful of respecting my "lack of faith" as you were of your patient's beliefs. She took me from the pre-op area to place where they shot the dye in both my breasts to highlight the cancer cells in my breast and nodes.  She wanted to pray with me and sing hymns, I'm not kidding.  Even when I tried to tell her I wasn't sure we had the same beliefs she still kept right on doing it.  I was so emotional by the time we got back to the pre-op area I was in tears.

I went to a funeral today for someone I worked with in the past.  He was only 50. :-(  He was a very devout Christian and it was a very religious service.  I think there was more time spent on the subject of life after death than anything else.  The minister spoke for over 30 minutes, quoting scripture after scripture ...imploring everyone to believe so there would be no death.  Even the man's brother spoke and although he told some sweet stories of his brother he also spent some time urging everyone that didn't have the faith of Christianity in their lives to reconsider.

It has me feeling so strange tonight.  I can't even put it into words but maybe some of you will understand.

Flan - I hope that rash gets better soon!

ananda8

CLC,

You are fortunate to have missed the indoctrination of religious dogma.  The most I can say about my parochial school education was that the nuns were excellent teachers of math english and history and religious class was only one hour a day. 

I think you did the right thing for that lady.  You were giving her the comfort of her religious beliefs. That's different than indoctrinating an unformed mind. 

CLC

Plantlover...I am so sorry you were subjected to such insensitivity before your bmx.  It is so important to respect other's needs at a time like that.   That was a really emotional moment...the dye injection...because it required such stillness while they took the photos. 

For me, that time was very intense.  I didn't expect the injection to hurt my nipple so badly.  Later, after the umx was done, I cried at the thought that the last thing my poor nipple ever felt was such intense pain.  It was my moment of intensely mourning my breast.

It must have been very invasive to have such praying and hymn-ing at a moment like that... 

notself...I feel nothing missing in lacking indoctrination...  But I grew up without community.  I have spent a lot of my adult life looking for the sense of community that church seems to give people.  But...I am just an odd duck...well, my family, dh, best friend and children are a family of odd ducks...  No community.  Que sera, sera...  (I love Doris Day)...:)

Anonymous

OH, Plantlover, I wish I had been the friend with you - I would have suggested we recite The Jabberwocky.  I happen to know it by heart

Claire - I think you were SO KIND, GENEROUS with your patient - when asked, by children I love, about "what happens" - I am very open about saying "I don't know."  And then can follow a wonderful conversation about "mystery" and how "not knowing" is not a "bad" thing - how often we are made to feel 'shame' ( or people can try to make you feel shame if you let them!) if we "don't Know" something - well, some things are UNKNOWN. Mystery- wish it was more respected.

Also very good for the imagination....

Reality

Hello, Claire - I do the same thing with my grandchildren when they ask about, "what happens" and the mysteries of life. They seem to be more comfortable with the concept of mysteries, rather than having only two choices: Heaven or hell, to believe in. 

Reality

Janeybw- I finally have a chance to expand on my comments yesterday about missionaries on the Seneca Indian Reservation. I once asked my ex-husband's gramma why the Seneca language was dying-out, and why young people were even being paid to learn the language in attempt to save it for generations to come. She told me that the missionaries actually took her, and many other children right from their yards on the reservation, and forced them to attend the Thomas Indian School. The children would be punished, often struck, if they spoke their native language as the missionaries considered their beliefs to be savage. She told me that most of the people her age would not teach, or allow their children to learn the Seneca language, for fear that they would also be punished. This was amazing to me as in terms of history, it did not happen that long ago - She is still alive! 

Wren44

One day driving home from day care, my daughter said "Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead." My DH turned and said, "No when Jesus died, he stayed dead." The next Sunday we joined the Unitarian Church. It had 2 services; the early service was pretty agnostic/atheist and the late service more traditional. Now I tell people I'm Buddhist. Most of them have no idea that Buddhism is a non-theistic religion. I do attend Buddhist services occasionally,

Mandalala

Anandagram – it's been some days since you wrote about your son who died, but I read it now and ... so sorry, so sad! My first child died too, after surgery to his heart which was malformed, so he couldn't have lived long anyway – he lived for 14 months. It's 28 years ago, I have two wonderful grown-up kids and life goes on and all this. But anyway.

I wasn't religious before this happened and obviously still not. But I live with a friend who feels a need to believe in an after-life. His health is bad, he had a heart attack some weeks before I got my bc diagnosis, and he has several other health issues. He feels that if life doesn't continue after death, it's meaningless. Since his heart attack, he somehow thinks I rob him of meaning when I say what he has always known me to believe.

To me, life is its own meaning, even when it's no fun or not lasting forever. And part of this I learnt from watching my own child fight for life, even when he was too tired to lift his head or suck. His life was meaningful, or he wouldn't have bothered with it. But he did, and most of the time he was a happy kid. Since then, it makes me angry when people complain about lack of meaning.

Anonymous

Hi, Mandalala,

reading your post reminded me in some ways of Victor Frankel's Man's Search for Meaning.  It is so, so painful to read - well, it was for me, this was years ago.  I googled it - and found this on wikipedia for anyone who's interested:

Frankl

Main article: Logotherapy

Logotherapy is a type of psychological analysis that focuses on a will to meaning as opposed to a Nietzschean /Adlerian doctrine of "will to power" or Freud's "will to pleasure."^[3] Frankl also noted the barriers to humanity's quest for meaning in life. He warns against "...affluence, hedonism, [and] materialism..." in the search for meaning.^[4]

The following list of tenets represents Frankl's basic principles of Logotherapy:

• Life has meaning under all circumstances, even the most miserable ones.
• Our main motivation for living is our will to find meaning in life.
• We have inalienable freedom to find meaning.

We can find meaning in life in three different ways:

1. by creating a work or doing a deed;
2. by experiencing something or encountering someone;
3. by the attitude we take toward unavoidable suffering.

Logotherapy was developed by psychiatrist and holocaust survivor Viktor Frankl.

chef127

mandalala,

If your friend feels that you are robbing him of his beliefs of an afterlife, which is his true meaning of life, then perhaps he is doubting his own belief. NO one can influence my belief by simplely making a suggestion. Don't feel guilty.

The hardest thing about being an atheist is peoples feelings that you are evil, etc. Nothing is furthur than the truth. The standards of my life are all good and achievable. For many religons their standards are not achievable so they spend their lives repenting their sins.

Human nature is an easy way to live your life. Nature tells me to be good, thoughtful, and  live my life to my benefit and to benefit others when I can.

I have a clear head dispite the hardships life has thrown at me. I don't "thank God" but I thank my efforts and the efforts of others. 

maureen

ananda8

I find it sad that someone would think the meaning of ones life only comes after death.  I have posted this before but since it's one of my favorites, I would like to post it again.  I have modified the poem slightly to put it in the first person where appropriate.  It's called the Metta Sutta. This is what gives my life purpose.
 

This is what should be done 

          By one who is
skilled in goodness, 

And who knows the path of peace: 

          Let me be able and
upright, 

Straightforward and gentle in speech, 

          Humble and not
conceited, 

Contented and easily satisfied, 

          Unburdened with
duties and frugal in my ways. 

Peaceful and calm and wise and skillful, 

          Not proud nor
demanding in nature. 

Let me not do the slightest thing 

          That the wise would
later reprove. 

In gladness and in safety, 

          May all beings be
at ease. 

Whatever living beings there may be; 

          Whether they are
weak or strong, omitting none, 

The great or the mighty, medium, short or small, 

          The seen and the
unseen, 

Those living near and far away, 

          Those born and
to-be-born - 

May all beings be at ease! 

Let me not deceive another, 

          Nor despise any
being in any state. 

Let me not through anger or ill-will 

          Wish harm upon
another.

Even as a mother protects with her life 

          Her child, her only
child, 

So with a boundless heart 

          Should I cherish
all living beings. 

Radiating kindness over the entire world: 

          Spreading upwards
to the skies,

And downwards to the depths; 

          Outwards and
unbounded, 

Freed from hatred and ill-will, 

          Whether standing or
walking, seated or lying down 

Free from drowsiness,

          Let me sustain this
recollection.

 

chef127

notself,

WOW. I wish I can live my life as your poem speaks. I do, but there are some negativities that still exist for me. There are some people who I love dearly, but, I have little tolerance for their blind sided ignorance. There is no hate but a very negative energy that could bring me down. I don't like to be brought down, just leave me be. 

Maureen

chef127

SunflowerMA,

Logotherapy, Is there a book? very interesting. I'm not very well read but very interested to read more on his philosophy. I need to expand my knowledge. It has been a lonely road without a true belief system except for my own thoughts. I am confortable with my belief system, but its not enough. Thats why I come here. 

THANX................................Maureen

PlantLover

Thanks for understanding.  

CLC ...  Fortunately the lady that did the singing and the praying wasn't in the room when they did the actual injections.  She just wheeled the gurney from the pre-op area and back, which included a nice long elevator ride both ways and plenty of long hallways.  Lots of time for preaching.

Speaking of those darn injections ... they hurt like the dickens, or least mine did .  WHY oh WHY they don't give you something to help with the pain before the shots I really don't know.  Before the doc started the nurse said "You won't feel a thing since they put the numbing cream on you in the pre-op area"  I said "Ummm ... they didn't put any cream on me".  She responded that they probably were "phasing that out because the procedure didn't hurt"  After the doc did the injection in my left boob and was getting ready to do the right I asked the nurse if she had ever had it done to her?  Of course she looked at me like I lost my mind and said "NO!".  I said "Then you should stop telling people it doesn't hurt because it does".  

Sorry ... I'm rambling again. 

Sunflower ... what is the Jabberwocky?

Notself ... nice!  Never heard that before.

I just found this SNL skit and thought you guys might get a laugh out of it!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Video-In-SNL-sketch-Jesus-tells-Tebow-to-821?urn=nfl-wp14093

ananda8

PlantLover,

That was great.  Thanks for posting.

Mandalala

SunflowersMA – Thanks for the tips about Logotherapy! Sounds like something to read, maybe in order to help, and anyway.

 

chef127 – Yes, he is doubting. He found a group of spiritists and a medium who helped him to get in contact with his dead mother, or so he thought. This was very important to him. (I didn't mind – in his world this is possible, in my world it isn't.) But the medium and the group seriously disappointed him, and soon after that he had his heart attack. What he sees now is a short and limited life and then just a black nothing. He is in no shape to build a new outlook on life, he just wants to be soothed and reassured, but everything he wants to be reassured about is alien to me. I don't feel guilty for being an atheist, but maybe for not being able to help. Especially as he helped me a lot when I lost my child. (Oh, our friendship should really be about having fun and playing scrabble – not about life and death matters!)

 

notself – I agree, it's sad … Your Metta Sutta is very beautiful!

ananda8

Mandalala,

I am sorry your friend is so upset and by extension you are upset.  I have a friend who is afraid of death because he is afraid he will disappear.  I don't understand the fear but I respect his emotions. 

What is so bad about ceasing - just joining the rest of the material of the universe?  It sounds very peaceful to me. I guess it is this fear of ceasing some have that creates gods and religion.

May your friend have a peaceful death.

Anonymous

Maureen - don't know what exists, except Frankels's Man's Search for Meaning - of his years during the holocaust - and this philosophy which he developed.

 The jabberwocky - a poem, begins, "Twas brillig and the slithy toves, did gyre and gimble in the wabe (sp) - will go google to find it ...had to memorize it when I was in 8th grade - whole class was being PUNISHED for laughing at someone in a school performance - and I still remember every word cuz I've always loved it

eta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabberwocky