Presidential debates on ABC right now-both parties

Anonymous

Good Morning!  Im waffling today.  Woke up an realized that today I dont like any of them.  What the heck am I gonna do when it comes time for the primaries here in Illinois.  I guess only time will tell.

Nicki

NoH8

Nicki I wish I could take parts of each of the candidates to create my ideal candidate. I wanted to ask you earlier in one of these political conversations about Obama. You said he hasn't done much if anything for the people of Illinois. What do you think he should/could have done that he hasn't? I'm only asking because it's rare that I hear about either of my senators doing something except for the occasional photo op when they've gotten money for a project.

Beesie

Amy, I know from reading your posts that you are a very intelligent woman.  And I know that my communications skills, while not always the greatest, generally aren't too bad.  So I'm guessing then that you are intentionally choosing to ignore the main point of my posts and are intentionally picking up one line and misinterpreting it.  So be it. 

I do find the criticism of Hillary by so many of the women here to be quite fascinating, so I did a bit of research.  Here's an interesting Gallup poll from last year.  The results indicate that 11% of Americans would not vote for a woman for President under any circumstances, vs. 5% who would not vote for a black presidential candidate under any circumstances.   Romney (Morman), McCain (old) and Guiliani (3X married) would do even worse.  So I guess of the viable candidates, Huckabee has the best shot, followed by Obama.  But you never know, maybe there will be a breakthrough and people will actually vote for someone based on what they like about their positions & qualifications vs. what they don't like about that person's race, gender, religion, personal life... Nah.   

http://www.gallup.com/poll/26857/Analysis-Impact-Personal-Characteristics-Candidate-Support.aspx

abbadoodles

Interesting item in this morning's paper.  Kucinich and a losing Republican (cannot remember his name - got 44 votes in NH) have requested a hand recount of all primary votes.

What gives with him?

Tina

NoH8

Beesie, I ignored the parts of your post that didn't apply to me, that's all. I agreed with a lot of what you said if and only if it's not also applied to men.  Do you remember Howard Dean's over the top show of passion and emotion during the last primary season? People didn't seem to like that much either and it's still being played back on some of the news outlets. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think some the comments apply just to a woman candidate. Shirley's comment about her eye fluttering as "cute and charming" probably wouldn't be applied the same to a male.

I do think that women and men show emotion and anger differently in a biological sense and that the bar is probably lower for what is "too much" for a woman vs. a man, but I wonder how much of that is because of being a woman vs. the manner it's displayed. 

The stats of who would and wouldn't vote for which type candidate are interesting. I wonder how honest people are in these polls (thinking the percentages for some of the categories might be higher) and how these polls were conducted. I would bet that people would answer more honestly in a written survey than a face to face or phone survey, in part because of "political correctness". I can't picture very many people saying they wouldn't vote for a black president if a black pollster was doing a face to face interview, for example. I am disturbed that 11% of the population say they wouldn't vote for a woman.

Abbadoodles, my understanding is that the reason Kucinich asked for the recount was not as much for his own candidacy, but because of the 16% point shift between people saying they would vote for obama and those who voted for Hillary. Last night on Bill Maher the pundits were talking about the electronic poll machines, all made in one of the countries in south america (I can't remember which one) and how they would not be too difficult to hack into. Additionally the place that makes the machines has the knowledge of how to get into them. That's scary. Apparently that happened in a california race which is frightening. No one was saying that the results weren't fair or they were tampered with, just that the polls were wrong and everyone wants to see whatever kinks there are fixed by the general election.

Anonymous

Amy:  Your funny - you asked a good question and I had to laugh out loud.  I guess the bottom line is that I dont know a whole lot about what Obama has done as a senator.  Most of what I hear is via news.  I think the first and main reason I dont like him - is just a feeling.  Ya know how sometimes there is just no Charisma there?  I know he has not had a chance to really learn about being a Senator because he started campaigning for president right after he was elected.  I heard that he had 131 votes of present and didnt like that so much.  Cause he was voted to represent us in issues and we were negated in those 131 votes.  What I dont know is what they were voting on.  Someone from New York mentioned the same thing to me about Hillary. That she hadnt done so much for New York.  I do agree - it would be fun to take some qualities of each of them and make our own candidate.

nnn

anneshirley

Actually not true about Hillary and New York.  Upstate New York has serious problems in poverty and joblessness. Senator Clinton has spent much time trying to bring jobs into the area, visiting, coming up with new ideas for improving the state's economy outside of New York City, trying to push through programs that will help. We had a house in the Catskills for a time, so I am aware of the work that she's done in Upstate. I wonder who told you that, and I wonder why?  Perhaps someone who doesn't like Senator Clinton (lots don't).  In fact, the demographic in Upstate New York is more Republican than Democratic and Clinton trounced her Republican rival in the last election--and in Republican Upstate.   

I don't think Obama is a strong candidate, and I wasn't inclined to vote for Hillary either--for me she's too far right in some of her views, particularly her support of the war, but in terms of her experience in government and her age, I'm far more inclined to vote for her than Obama.  Roseanne Barr can be offensive at times, but her comment that Obama is just a suit resonated with me.  He makes soaring speeches ("we certainly can" but please tell me how), but to reiterate one of the older, and I acknowledge sillier slogans, "Where's the beef."

I would have preferred Bidden, or Dodd, or Richardson, but we live in a time when money and glamor and name recognition count for far more than experience and sense.  One woman's view! 

NoH8

Nicki, I wonder if with Obama's landslide win for senate the expectations were so high that no one could possibly live up to them? I often wonder how these congresspeople and governors actually get their jobs done with all the campaigning they do. Aside from proposing legislation, voting on legislation, holding hearings, and going in committees what else do they do or should they be doing? I guess they should talk to their constituents and figure out how to help us...

NoH8

I'm really disgusted with the Clinton campaign and how they've insinuated race into the discussion in such a negative way. The black preacher who said, "We all know what he was doing that I'm not going to say but he said it in his book." was particularly a low blow (no pun intended ). If I was Hillary I would come out and say that Obama's drug experimentation as a teen has no bearing on his run for office and not try to lie it away by saying they were talking about building neighborhood coalitions. Her camp seems to be the instigators of much of the negativity in the primaries and I fear if she's nominated that will continue through the general election and into her presidency.

Bren-2007

AnneShirley,

Thanks for your post ... my thoughts exactly on Obama.  I am a Hillary backer.  Yes, I'm quite aware of all her faults and contradictions.  However, I do believe she's the most intelligent and does have the most experience in actually getting things done.  I have yet to hear a plan of withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan from Obama, Edwards and Richardson... just that they would do it in 9 months, 6 months or a year.  Where is the reality of the sitation in this?  I want our troops out yesterday, but we have more than soldiers over there.  And how will they deal with Pakistan?

Imagine where we would be with healthcare reform if 15 years ago the American people were ready to accept that a First Lady was actually capable of something other than traipsing through the Rose Garden. (I aplogize in advance for this over-generalization.) And why isn't Clinton viewed as passionate versus strident?

I also long for the day when I can again watch on TV or read what our President has to say.  It's been 7 years since I have seen or heard our American president. 

BTW - I thought LBJ had the best homeland policies of all the recent Presidents, except of course for his horrendous and tragic mistakes in Vietnam.  

Just my 2 cents.

Bren

NoH8

Madalyn, Hillary doesn't need to defend Obama, but if I were her, I wouldn't want anyone saying what that preacher did on my behalf and would live by the philosophy the buck stops here. A candidate can be a rival and still maintain integrity.

Beesie

Actually Amy, on Meet the Press yesterday, I felt that Hillary did try to straighten out some of the misstatements / misinterpretations about statements about Obama that came both from her campaign and from others.  I thought that she spoke very highly of Obama as an individual and as someone who can drive excitement and involvement in the political process.  But she also talked about why she believes experience is necessary at this time in American and world history and how it is relevant (and important) to assess & question the behaviors & achievements in someone's past to get insight into possible behaviors & actions in the future.  She didn't criticize Obama in these areas but left it for the voters to compare and decide.

I think a lot of the hype about the negative comments about Obama is actually being planted by the Obama campaign because they know that the more these statements are played up, the more it will hurt Clinton.  Having said that, I have no doubt that there is dirty politics on both sides.

nosurrender

Here is where Hilary hurts herself.

On Meet The Press yesterday she was talking about all her experience being co-president with Bill. She has been saying that she was "in" on all major decisions and was Bill's sounding board, etc. That is part of her "35 years of experience" she says she has.

So when Tim Russert asked her about the end of Bill's presidency and the pardons he granted, specifically to Marc Rich and the fact that Mrs. Rich then gave a tremendous amount of money to Hilary's senate campaign, and then Hillary's own brothers asked for and got pardons for their friends and business associates, Hilary's response to Tim Russert was that she had nothing to do with pardons, no one ever discussed them with her, she knew nothing about what was going on and was basically clueless.

Which is it? Are you a sounding board for the president and a co-president? Or are you out of the loop?

If she can't answer Tim Russert what will she say when she is asked and hammered by the GOP candidate?

It is THAT kind of thing that makes people crazy about her. 

Bren-2007

Hi G !!

Like I said,

"I'm quite aware of her faults and contradictions."  Still think she's smarter than the rest.  If I was the Prez' wife, I would've pardoned my brother too.  I guess I'm too much of a realist and less an idealist.

BTW G - How's rads going?  I think about you everyday!

love ya friend!

Bren

nosurrender

hi Madalyn,

Well I did make a comment about Romney reminding me of Buzz Lightyear

If you ask me it is a total crap shoot with the GOP side.

I don't think that America will fall for Huckabee's fast talk... he may be a great guest on Leno but as a commander in chief? I don't think so.

Romney is probably the smartest of all of them, but there is something too perfect about him that I think weirds a lot of people out. Plus, many people don't understand Mormonism and in the general election that would come up.

McCain is looking strong now, but he has a lot to answer for. He is not the golden boy he once made himself out to be. 

Guiliani COULD have been a contender because he was not totally on the right of all social issues. He takes a more moderate stand. But I think his wife hurt him and I think his crazy strategy of not trying for the early states is going to come back and bite him.

Thompson should have kept his job on Law and Order!

Watch for the "other" NY mayor- Mike Blumberg to make a big entrance to take over all of the candidates.

I think I covered them! 

Anonymous

Today I like Hillary and Guilliani.  Who knows who I will like tomorrow.   I need some serious time to read what you all have said. I so love this thread.

Catch ya later.

nnn

saluki

Why the heck do the Democrats always shoot themselves in the foot?

With the best potential in years to take the White House back they have to tear their party apart with this lunacy?

If I was voting in Michigan I'd wash my hands of both of them and give my vote to McCain. 

Apparently, the only Democrat you can vote for in the Michigan Primary is Hillary since she is the only one one the ballot.  Teaching Michigan a lesson for moving their primary up or some such strangeness?

McCain at least seems honest and I've seen forty year olds have less energy than his seventy years.

I don't know how I'll vote in the Fall but the direction this Democratic campaign has taken is leaving a very bitter taste.  Nasty business!

anneshirley

Bill Clinton was pummeled over his statement about his drug use ("I didn't inhale") when he first ran for president and I don't see why Obama should expect a free ride over his use of drugs. Just because he's the one who talked about it first doesn't exempt him from discussion of it during the campaign. 

That he did drugs doesn't influence my vote one bit--that kind of stuff never does--but it will influence Republican votes, and an absolute is: the Republicans will use it if he gets the nomination. Obama acknowledged his drug use as a preemptive strike, which was clever, but it's still there. 

If there were any truth to the suggestion by some in the Obama camp that the Clintons are "racist," then Obama wouldn't stand a chance in the general election when all those to the right of the Clintons get to vote.  But the Clintons are not racist, and the ever-so-subtle implications that they are, or might be, falls into the realm of "Willie Horton" campaigning. 

I just heard Congressman Charlie Rangel on TV regarding Obama and Clinton and agree fully.  To paraphrase Rangel, Obama is intelligent, a great speaker, and inexperienced, too inexperienced to be president.  Nothing against him, just the facts.  For those of you who don't know him, Charlie Rangel is a highly articulate congressman from New York State, and also an African-American whose district is Harlem.

Hillary Clinton's status as a first lady gave her the opportunity to meet and interact with many of the world leaders, some of whom are still in office, so she gets off to a running start; and she also has a very knowledgable, experienced, if randy, husband  I don't know about the rest of you married ladies, but I always talked over office problems with my husband, and he also gets to read what I write and comment--and I always listen to his criticisms.  And he talks over his issues with me.  Why would we imagine that the same is not true of Bill and Hillary when Clinton was president or won't happen again if Senator Clinton becomes president. Two heads are better than one, at least in this instance. 

I watched Senator Clinton on "Meet the Press" Sunday, and I was amazed at how articulate and detailed she was in her responses, more so, in my view, than any other candidate I've seen on that show, whether Democrat or Republican.  I'm completely turned around since New Hampshire.  Perhaps the feminist in me came out when I saw those "iron my shirts" signs.  Whatever!  Of the two candidates, I believe she has the best chance of winning the election and the best chance of being the better president. 

NNN:  About Guilliani.   As someone who lives in New York City, I still can't figure out what it is he claims to have done after 9/11 beyond what he was expected to do as the City's mayor!  He did nothing to prevent the attack, and his decision to built a 60-million-dollar command center in the same buildings that were previously bombed by terrorists actually made things worse.  Many of the families of the firemen and policemen who lost their lives on that day are completely negative with respect to Guilliani, and I agree with them. If I had a preference among the Republican candidates it would have been Ron Paul, but now that we hear about his racism in the 1990's, I have no preferences. 

Hillary or Obama, I'm voting for a Democrat.

Dx 6/10/2006, IDC, <1cm, Stage I, Grade 2, 0/3 nodes, ER-/PR-, HER2+

saluki

In case anyone wants to tune in:

The Nevada Democratic Party will partner with the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce and IMPACTO, 100 Black Men of America, and the College of Southern Nevada to hold the second Democratic presidential debate in Las Vegas. The debate will be telecast live by MSNBC and held at the Cashman Center in Las Vegas on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 from 6:00 – 8:00 pm Pacific Standard Time.
 

Anonymous

Anne:  Your points about Guilliani are interesting.  Especially because you live in New York.  From the outside it looked as though he took control of a bad situation.  I saw him on the news yesterday and he looked sickly to me.  So Im wondering if anything is going on.

I like McCain too, but I dont like the fact that he fully intends on continuing the war until we find Osama Binladin.  That scares me.  I do think he is an honest guy though.

Im also wondering how much is true about Obama selling drugs.  If that rumor is true, it sits sour in my stomach.

Anyways today is another day.  Will be watching what is happening in Michigan.

nnn

NoH8

Hillary isn't the only vote one to vote for in Michigan, Gravel and Kucinich are on the ballot. I wonder why Hillary stayed in the primary when the others opted out. I can understand Gravel and Kucinich staying in, since this is their chance for publicity etc.

I think Bill Clinton's comments about not inhaling left him open to questions about his honesty. Obama said of that, "Wasn't the whole point to inhale?" LOL. I don't think what the candidates did as teenagers is relevant- whether drugs, president of their class, A students, C students. Childhood is supposed to be a time of learning and growing and without knowing the exact details, a person could have learned more from experimenting with drugs and making the decision to not use them than being president of his (or her) high school class. I believe that sometimes greater knowledge comes through personal adversity than having lead a charmed life.

I didn't watch Meet the Press, I watched This Week with George Stephanopolis so if I missed anything about Hillary's concession that's why. Kudos to her if she did. I agree that Obama could have responded to the likeability discussion a lot better. BTW, the preacher I was referring too isn't a preacher, he's the owner of BET and the first black billionaire in the country. I wrongly assumed he was a preacher because from the clips he looked like he was preaching a sermon.

NS your points about Hillary wanting to have it both ways. She seems to do that a lot. When she does that about being a woman that bothers me the most.

She's smart, but so is Obama.

I've been avoiding much of the republican side, knowing Romney and Huckabee's views on gays makes it so hard for me not to see anything but disdain for these men. I hope for either McCain or Rudy in the general election, simply because they appear to be the least harmful to the gay community. I wish I could be less myopic, it's just so hard not to feel disenfranchised by Mitt and Mike. 

anneshirley

Amy,

I disagree with many of your comments regarding Obama and Clinton, but I certainly am at one with you about Dennis Kucinich, who had been my favorite candidate. That he's no longer in the race makes me see even more clearly that the best man (or woman) does not win, usually doesn't get into pole position.  Again, it's never about reality but about perceptions, mainly those created by the media.  

I certainly agree with you about not counting drug use against someone if it happened when they were young. But that's us, and the next president is elected by the entire country, and the Republicans will use it against him, without fail. And it will count against him with lots of people.  But since Obama's drug use is probably out there for anyone to find, he was wise to talk about it himself--as I wrote earlier, a preemptive strike.  If it were sufficiently covered up, I doubt very much he would have spoken of it.  But then I'm a cynic as well as a realist! 

Rudy Giulliani is my least favorite candidate (to be honest, I dislike him more than I could ever indicate on this board without being requested to leave, and so do many others who live here in New York).  He was and is a bully, a hypocrite, and worse of all for me, a racist.  What he did to blacks and racial harmony here in New York when he was mayor is unconscionable, and I'll never forgive him for that.  Bloomberg is a great contrast in that respect.  And, all that aside, I worked briefly with Guilliani at a law firm in New York City (30 years ago) and he ate everyone's cookies and goodies in the office, and never brought any in himself!  If I remember correctly, he was a Democrat back then.  Little things do mean a lot! 

NoH8

To be honest, AS, I don't even think the best man or woman even runs for president. The election process is so nasty and grueling that it probably rules out a lot of people who would be good presidents.

saluki

I was for Joe Biden---I like him allot. 

I like Boomberg---If he were to get in the race he'd take votes from both Guilliani and Hillary.  I think he'd make a good VP candidate in either party.

If he runs a third party ticket; (and he has the money to do so) It would be a free for all. Mind you he may have said he isn't running today but he could change his mind.

JoanofArdmore

Quote by Amy:

"To be honest, AS, I don't even think the best man or woman even runs for president. The election process is so nasty and grueling that it probably rules out a lot of people who would be good presidents."

I agree, Amy.AND I can add that I feel truely SORRY for whomever is elected president this year and has to cope with bush's mess, and national debt!

And Susie, if Bloomberg runs, I'm in too!

Anonymous

Okay, I'm going to be very brave here.  I am a registered Republican.  I do NOT hold Obama's drug experimentation against him.  I have three beautiful, lovely, wonderful, PERFECT  daughters who are now grown (thank God!).  There are a few things I found out about them that I would not have believed when I was their mom..okay, I'm still their mom, but I am not an "active" mom like I used to be.  I do know one of my DDs tried MJ (didn't know about that until YEARS after).  She's now a mom, works and is a wonderful person.  And she was just ordained as an Elder

Anonymous

Okay, I'm going to be very brave here.  I am a registered Republican.  I do NOT hold Obama's drug experimentation against him.  I have three beautiful, lovely, wonderful, PERFECT  daughters who are now grown (thank God!).  There are a few things I found out about them that I would not have believed when I was their mom..okay, I'm still their mom, but I am not an "active" mom like I used to be.  I do know one of my DDs tried MJ (didn't know about that until YEARS after).  She's now a mom, works and is a wonderful person.  And she was just ordained as an Elder in her church (yeah, gotta brag a bit).  My other two daughters are wonderful gals to. 

No one's perfect.  We ALL make mistakes when we are growing up and when we've GROWN up.  Thus, Obama's messing with drugs do not phase me one bit.  I do think he was smart by writing about it in his book.

I don't know who the heck I'm going to vote for.  I don't believe any of them have really given us a plan of what they say they're going to do.  And the prez does have to have Congress "working with him." 

I'm still concerned about the security of this nation.  I hate the war.  However, I cannot see how we can just "pull" out of Iraq.  Can't happen.  The breeding ground for the terrorists will just continue to get worse.

There's no easy answer to the war.  There's not easy answer to health care.  There's no easy answer how to fix Social Security now that they've screwed it up.  These candidates can talk all they want.  Talk is cheap!

Please don't dislike me because I'm a registered Republican. 

Shirley

NoH8

Shirley I don't have anything against you for being republican and it's no surprise to me you are. I do have a problem with anyone who doesn't believe gays deserve equal rights and protection under the law and right now Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel are the only candidates who fully support our rights being equal with heterosexuals. That's my biggest concern with the government right now. I probably should be more concerned with less selfish problems, but until I have the right to marry, adopt, inherit from my wife with out taxes, get her whole benefits just as heterosexuals, I'm primarily focused on that. I know that you don't have an issue with your daughter's gay friends and that's more than I can say about some of the presidential candidates in your party.

Obama wrote about his drug use in his book from 2004, I believe, Dreams from My father- not sure if he did it  because of election ambitions or just because it was part of his story.

NoH8

Who saw the MSNBC democratic debate last night? I only caught 2/3 of it, I fell asleep towards the end. I thought the "kinder and gentler" debate was a step in the right direction, if not a bit forced. Obama disappointed me with one of his answers, when asked about internet rumors that he was muslim and took his oath of office on the koran, he corrected the information saying he was christian. I wish that he had added that there would be nothing wrong if he was muslim and chose to use the koran rather than the christian or jewish bible. Just because there are less muslims in the country, it doesn't mean that a muslim shouldn't be elected or use the koran when taking an oath. I think this plays into underlying bias against the religion.

I was pleased to see Hillary clarify her position on Barack's teen years. I thought she did a good job except for when Tim Russert asked if she planned to distance herself from the BET guy (can't remember his name) and she said he didn't mean what everyone thought he meant. After hearing his statement several times yesterday I find it very hard to believe anyone could think he was talking about anything but Obama's drug use.

I like that Obama said race should be no more of an issue than gender, Hillary and John Edwards agreed. I wish I had seen the whole thing, I'm going to try to find it online.

Blundin2005

Susie- Glad to hear from you as you are the one who started this thread. 

I was for Biden too .... glad to hear other voices out there.  Bloomberg maybe Secretary of State if he doesn't have the numbers for President? VP is much less important unless your name is Cheney.

What do you think about ..... the President is the front man who articulates to the world the work of the more important back field?  For this reason, I'm not too disappointed that Biden is back to work as Chairman of Foreign Relations Committee.

 
.....the incumbent went to Isreal and Palestine...finally...for the press op and too little too late as they reported it here...then stopped by Dubai...coincidently Haliburton ("Dick" Cheney's Company) is relocated there if I remember correctly.