What do you think of GABA for sleep?

dash

What do you think of GABA for sleep?

dash

Suddenly in the last month, Tamox/night sweats has been disrupting my sleep horribly. Falling asleep is more difficult than usual but I can deal with that--it's the waking up throughout the night with an impending hot flash and feeling of suffocating and even when I don't have many hot flashes the quality of my sleep stinks. I swear it feels as if I am only lightly dozing all night. I can seemingly feel the passage of time throughout the night. No dream stage.

I t's dragging me down--each day the fatigue, crankiness, etc

I do take a dual acting melatonin(a quick release and a time release together) and an ativan(which I would like to stop) I am desperate to sleep all night.

I wonder about GABA and also Valerian root. What do you know about GABA or valerian? I also take a heart med in the AM so have to be careful there too....sigh!

JoanofArdmore

Dear Bay,

I love GABA for sleep.I take a capsule, maybe 750 mgs, before I sit down with my before-bed book and apple.

After I've read for about a half hour, I'm too yawny to go on.I take my nightly enteric-covered Bayer, and pop my melatonin 2.5 under my tongue.By the time it is disolved, the sandman has my hand and is leading me to bed!

Sound great?ItWORKS!

It's not like a sleep drug or antidepressive where you require higher & higher doses.It is a simple amino acid, which happens, truely, to be very relaxing.

I read about it in SELF mag years ago.An article on 4 amino acids and how they can calm us or pep us up.Sorry I recycled the mag, becauseI can sure use the pepp-up ones now, on Femara.

Personally I cant sleep unless I'm drowsy.This was the original reason for the pre-bed reading.Now on femara it just takes a little more, but they DO work!

Try it!Good luck! j

dash

Thanks Joan! I just looked and see formulas with only 500mg--what brand do you use?

saluki

Valerian is a precursor to GABA.  That is why its been long used in alternative medicine for nervous conditions, sleeplessness, anxiety, and epilepsy.  The best way to use it for sleep however, is probably combined with other herbals.

Towanda2 in another thread said Michael's Sleep Factors work for her. Michael's sleep factors also has calcium and magnesium

added as well as Valerian and herbs all helpful for sleep.

http://www.michaelshealth.com/products.asp?id=41

For me Moon drops work (also a Valerian containing preparation), but I do take a Calcium Magnesium supplement in addition before bed.

Both products are available at Whole Foods

 "Valerian has an affinity for GABAA receptors, likely due to the relatively high GABA content in valerian itself. The amount of GABA present in valerian extract is sufficient to induce release of GABA in synaptosomes and may also inhibit GABA reuptake.

Other believed mechanisms of action in valerian include inhibition of the catabolism of GABA by valerenolic acid and acetylvalerenolic acid and affinity for the 5-HTA receptor by another constituent of valerian, called hydroxypinoresinal.

Due to the herb’s historical use as an anti-convulsant, sedative, migraine treatment and pain reliever, most basic research has been focused on the interaction of valerian constituents with the GABA neurotransmitter. The findings of these studies remain inconclusive. Thus, the true mechanism of action of valerian remains unknown.  "

A little more info on GABA

 

"GABA, or gamma-aminobutyric acid, is the most abundant inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain. While GABA is an amino acid, it is classified as a neurotransmitter and helps induce relaxation and sleep. It balances the brain by inhibiting over-excitation. GABA contributes to motor control, vision, and many other cortical functions. Anxiety is also regulated by GABA. Some drugs that increase the level of GABA in the brain are used to treat epilepsy and to calm the trembling of people suffering from Huntington’s disease.

Gamma-aminobutyric acid also stimulates the anterior pituitary, leading to higher levels of Human Growth Hormone (HGH). Human Growth Hormone contributes significantly to muscle growth and also prevents the creation of fat cells. Moreover, HGH depletion is prevalent in adults over the age of 40 may be responsible for sleep disturbances or interupted sleeping patterns.

Natural alternative medicines have been shown to act directly on the GABAnergic system, allowing for greater availability of this neurotransmitter. This effect is believed to be partially responsible for improvement in those individuals taking natural alternative GABA antagonists like Valerian root.  "

JoanofArdmore

Thanks, Susie. I actually dont like Valerian--it makes me grobby but I never actually fall asleep.AND it makes my breath really stink.

I forgot to mention I take cal/mag/d3 chewable wafer too, WITH my Bayer and GABA.

Bay, this bottle of GABA I bought at GNS, or whatever that vitamin store is called.I buy most of my suppliments at Whole Foods but they dont carry GABA(my store too small).And I USUALLY order it from iherb.com, but ran out and couldnt wait for mailorder.Thus GNS.

(And now you know much more than you wanted to!)

JoanofArdmore

PS Susie.Just realized that once you asked me if I take that Mucinex all the time.Senility forot until now.Answer yes!

I have been taking it for YEARS, probably 7 or 8, since my ENT doc used it to end a viral pneumonia I couldnt get rid of.In those days it was prescription!

It WORKS.And is totally unharmful.It is glycol-giluciate...Robitussin: what every pediatrician calls for for baby's cold.Robitussin ! It liquifies mucus and allows it to be coughed up.

I take it every night of my life.I learned that with my sinus, I have to keep the post-nasal drip in check.

(For a drug I've been taking nightly for neigh on 10 years, it never bothers my liver, for example!)

So there.Full disclosure of my pre-bed suppliments!

saluki

Thanks Joan!

That dental surgery put a hole in my sinuses.  They grafted

from my cheek to cover it, and gave me course after course of antibiotics

and perpetual antihistamines to dry it up. Still I think they wrecked my sinuses up for good.

I'll try the Mucinex.

I tried the Valerian by itself---it relaxed me but no sleep. 

Thats why I suggested the herbal supplement containing it instead.

Tried the GABA too, but still needed to take the melatonin with it.

Now before bed I put the Traumeel on all my problem spots---Take my 

magnesium/calcium ; then my Moon Drops and the melatonin.

Lately, I've been able to get to sleep without adding the melatonin.

I think the Bayer is a very good idea---I take my Trilisate before bed which is also a salicylate supposedly easier on the stomach.

Now, if only I did not have to get up to tinkle. LOL

JoanofArdmore

I KNOW!

And getting up, the actual act of getting out of bed is SO hard that I'm wishing for Depends!(Ewwww)

I must say I CAN now, (off "the stuff", )fall back to sleep.Pain doesnt wake me up any more.As long as I'm not putting weight on any of the "trouble spots", ( my lower back doesnt mind my lying on it,) I can now go back to sleep.

Gotta say this though.I park WAY in back of the WF lot.This way I can avoid the TRAFFIC in the lot & go out the back way.So a friend was leaving with me tonight, offered me a ride to my car.And I said "No thanks.It hurts less to walk than to get in & out of cars."

(And it hurts a lot to walk.)

Ohhhhh, what a NIGHTMARE!

dash

Thanks Joan and Susie....and I know about the middle of night tinkles---if it's not that waking me up, it's the hot flashes or husband's snoring......

NativeMainer

The best thing I ever found for helping me get to sleep and stay asleep for more than a couple of hours is Skullcap.  Early research in mice shows some anticancer properties, too.

saluki

Native Mainer--I've seen Skullcap listed in some of the sleep herbals.

What dose are you finding effective?

JoanofArdmore

And how can we find out if scullcap is estrogenic?

NativeMainer

I use skullcap tincture--1/2 to 1 dropper full 1/2 hour before going to bed and the same at bedtime.  I will look into the estrogenic question when I get home from church--gotta scoot out the door right now!

dash

Ok ladies, please help me figure out if this link tells us if skullcap is estrogenic or not! My brain is so darn foggy anymore!

http://www.yourhealthbase.com/database/a84o.htm 

saluki

Do I dare mention the word "Flavonoids". LOL

"Flavonoids present in S. baicalensis include baicalin, baicalein, wogonin, and wogonoside. 1 , 3  RP-HPLC determination of flavonoids from S. baicalensis root has been reported. 4 Flavones Ι and ΙΙ, chrysin, wogonin, apigenin, salvigenin, scutellarein, isoscutellarein, and others were flavonoid constituents also found in S. baicalensis leaf parts. 5  Flavones baicalein, oroxylin, and skullcapflavone ΙΙ also were identified. 6  Other reports confirm similar flavonoid content. 7 , 8  One report describes melatonin in certain plant samples. 9  Other compounds include sterols and benzoic acid. 1  The western species, S. laterifolia differs in its chemical constituents."

--------------------------------

 There is however another product containing skullcap called PC-SPES that has negative estrogen like effects. I think its mixed with warfarin?

Isoflavonoids can be phytoestrogens but then green tea is also a phytoestrogen---- and I'm drinking that all the time--And don't even mention chocolate! (even though I'm ER+/PR+)  --And you'd be cutting out a huge piece of your diet if you eliminated them.   I guess it all depends on the type.
Maybe Rosemary or BBS will weigh in.

NativeMainer

Re: PC-SPES

"However, in early 2002, the FDA Safety Information and Adverse Event Reporting Program issued a warning to consumers to avoid using PC-SPES® based on findings that the product contained the anticoagulant (blood thinner) warfarin. Bleeding disorders had previously been reported with PC-SPES®. The manufacturer voluntarily recalled the product. Samples of PC-SPES® were later found to contain variable amounts of the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug indomethacin, the synthetic estrogen diethystilbesterol (DES) and the estrogen ethinyl estradiol.

A study published in the September 2002 issue of the Journal of the National Cancer Institute analyzed lots of PC-SPES® manufactured between 1996 and 2001 (Sovak, 2002). This evaluation found variable ingredients in PC-SPES® between lots, with higher levels of indomethacin and DES after 1999. These post-1999 samples were found to have much greater estrogenic properties compared to earlier samples, and to possess a higher level of activity against prostate cell lines in laboratory tests. After 2001, greater amounts of the natural constituents licochalcone A and baicalin, as well as warfarin, were found in samples. These results suggest that PC-SPES® produced at different times may not be equivalent or comparable, and that the 'anti-cancer' effects of PC-SPES® may have been due to undeclared prescription drug ingredients"

http://www.mdanderson.org/departments/cimer/print.cfm?displayPrint=1&id=66d17404-09ad-443e-b865bcfc6b635507&method=displayfull&PrintPage=1

DES is a known estrogenic agent, used to treat prostate cancer for some decades now, even before it was found to be harmful to the baby of a pregnant woman.  It was given to pregnant women in the 50's to prevent miscarrage on the theory that excess estrogen causes miscarrages.  If the study samples of PC-SPES was contaminiated with DES, that would explain the estrogenic effect on prostate cancer. 

There is also a second compound out there called "SPES" or "SPEC" that is a copy-cat formulation with who knows what for ingredients. 

Also important to note:  Scutellaria lateriflora is the species used in herbal medicine for anxiety and sleep.  Scutellaria baicalensis (Chinese Skullcap) is the species used in PC-SPES and has been shown to have anti-cancer properties.  Scutellaria baicalensis Georgi (huang qin) is the species that grows in Asia and is used in Traditional Chinese Medicine.

Yet another important note:  some products labelled 'skullcap' are actually germander which is liver toxic.  Be sure to purchase skullcap from a reputable source. 

Is skullcap estrogenic?  I haven't found a reliable source that says one way or the other.  Like all plants it has isoflavanoids, and, as Susie stated, isoflavanoids can be phytoestrogens.  My recommendation would be to use something else if avoiding estrogenic substances is important to you, at least until more specific info is turned up (someone on this board probably has better resources than this poor, beginning herbalist).  For me, I plan to keep using it and not worry about it. 

Sorry I went on so long. 

JoanofArdmore

Thank you researching lasdies, for all your research.

I, as usual, am incapable of UNDERSTANDING science-speak.And so you have also broken it down in English.

After all that I am not going to try it, because I am satisfied w/my herbal sleep system, and because Scullcap 's flavenoids MIGHT be estrogenic.

This unlike-me fusiness because I have quit Femara, not started Tamox, am "flying blind" trying to amass my residual estrogen to stop the SEs, and yet not add any in what I eat or drink.

Balancing act.

Thank you guys again.Hugs, j

saluki

Native Mainer--I'm seriously considering getting the skullcap---sounds like it has a lot of anti-inflammatory properties and anti-spasmodic properties as well.  I'm really not seeing anything

that would worry me.

Can you tell me what brand you are using and whether it is alcohol free or not? ( Since Quality control in this herb seems to be of paramount importance)

I think where you run into problems is with the herbal mixtures containing it.  Some of them seem to contain Hops.  Hops has an estrogen like chemical in it.---Who knew????

I notice that Michaels sleep Factors contain Hops which I would avoid.

Thanks Joan for bringing the issue up. I can understand your apprehension to take it, since you are already taking a few things like red rice yeast that have phytoestrogenic activity.---You are very right!  Its quite a balancing act.

NativeMainer

Susie,

I am fortunate to know an herbalist who makes her own tinctures, I buy from her.  By definition a tincture has alcohol in it--a tincture is a medicinal substance in an alcoholic solvent. 

Tinctures are taken in some water--I use cold water to make the horrid taste less noticeable.  Many people put tinctures in hot water and let it sit for a few minutes to evaporate the alcholol. 

When my friend doesn't have herbals I need I also shop from Maine Coast Herbals:  http://www.maineherbs.com/tinctures.html

and Blessed Maine Herbs:  http://blessedmaineherbs.com/tinctures1.html

Both of these are certified organic providers. 

If you are interested in high quality herbal tinctures and other preparations I recommend checking with a local health food store for locally made products.  There is a great deal of comfort to be had from being able to visit the farm where the plants are grown or wildcrafted and perhaps meet the people who make the preparations. 

JoanofArdmore--one of the best things about this board is the respect we all have for each other's decisions. The only way to be comfortable with our decisions is to make them with all the info available in hand.  I'm glad I could provide at least some info as many of your posts have been very informative to me.   

saluki

Native Mainer--What I was looking at was a Glycerite.

Is that as good?  I ran across this company. Have you ever heard of it?

http://www.herb-pharm.com/index.html

I know know nothing about herbs with the exception of the few that I am taking so, I'm very appreciative of the advice.

dash

So last night I took a GABA and instead of relaxing me, I felt very anxious all night--it was a weird anxiety that seemed very generalized. I was lying there...trying to figure out why I was so nervous...and then finally decided it must be the GABA for lack of any better reason for it. 

I had virtually no sleep again. Those night sweats are brutal, too. I wipe myself down with ice water at night. Do/did you all go through this in the beginning months of tamox? 

Anyway, I plan to try it again but I need to get some sleep before I try it again just in case it happens to affect me like that again(if that's what did it)

Tonight, I'm trying Hyland Calms and tylenol PM, along with melatonin and maybe an ativan. and maybe some valerian. Ahhhh, I'm so frustrated! 

NativeMainer

Saluki,

I haven't learned how to make extracts using the glycerine process, but I have heard of it.  It is an alternative to using alcohol, considered equally effective but is usually more expensive.  The site you linked to looks very reputable and I would not have any hesitation ordering from them.  Glycerite extracts are a good alternative to alcohol based tinctures for those who wish to avoid alcohol and don't mind spending more  $ and waiting a bit longer for the effect to start.  One of the advantages of tinctures is that they go to work within minutes.  Glycerite extracts also taste better--usually sweet from the glycerine component. 

NativeMainer

Bay1431--

what heart med do you take?  Did you take just the GABA last night or any of the other regulars?  It is certainly possible that GABA will not be helpful for you, or not helpful by itself.  It's a good idea to go back to your usual routine for a few days before trying it again.  I know how frustrating it is not to be able to sleep.  It's been almost a year since I found the lump, and I still only sleep through the night once or twice a week.  I don't have any hot flashes from tamoxifen, in fact, unless hair thinning, depression and insomnia are SE of tamoxifen I'm not having any effects at all from it.  I can't imagine hot flashes like you describe.  It must be horrible! 

saluki

 Native Mainer--Thanks so much for the help--

I am going to go ahead and order from them.  I think in my situation, the additional possible benefits of this herb make this something worth trying.

Bay1431--I feel for you.  I went through this for the past four years until recently.  I couldn't make heads or tails out of it.

I was menstruating at my first chemo instant chemopause.  Mega hot flashes.  I thought they couldn't get any worse---but boy was I wrong!

58 years old and drenching through my clothes every half hour -the sweat pouring into my eyes always on the verge of passing out.  I was afraid to walk out the door.  I'm on Femara --so naturally I blamed that

medication.  Sleep?  What was that?  And we tried everything.

Some things helped helped to cut them down to about 8 a day instead of every half hour. In my case I found a Catapress patch helpful--It's really a Blood Pressure med but it can work.  

Also, was on Gabapentin (Neurontin), which when taken at night will really make you sleep like a baby and curb your hot flashes.  (couldn't cope with SE's) --for many it works like a charm.

At one point my Pain Management Doc got very upset with me---The one and only time--for doing exactly what you describe--taking the whole medicine cabinet--OTC's, Herbals, all in the same night.

You see he had given me Clonazepam (Klonopin) which is like a long acting Ativan---so you won't wake up after two and four hours. (that particular medication I only take at night)

I was being stubborn even though I'd never had discontinuation problems from any medication--  I wanted to do it naturally!!!

Sometimes you need something more.

Anyway, long story short---At one of my labs I wound up with liver enzymes over double what they should be (and mine run high in the first place)  I was in a panic.  The Oncologist wanted a repeat of all the labs.

So, I discontinued my other medications except the Femara and my Blood Pressure meds.

To my amazement the hot flashes got better and all but disappeared.

What turned out to be the culprit --you ask???

I was having what they call a "Paradoxical Effect" to one of my medications--- the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do.

In my case it was Effexor XR---It was causing me massive sweats and

insomnia---go figure, rare, but it sometimes can happen.

Anyway--I can't say I sleep like a baby now, especially with my three furbabys in the same bed constantly re-adjusting and shaking themselves ( heaven forfend I should have to turn) LOL, but I get enough to be able to experiment with the herbals.

dash

I take a beta blocker (Atenolol) along with a Zetia(for cholesterol) in the morning.

I know I shouldn't combine meds with just anything, I too had super high liver enzymes just a few months ago along with an enlarged liver(from the chemo). But you know, I can't live without sleep. 

Yes, native mainer, I think tamox can cause depression and all the rest. Or maybe it'd be more accurate to say it fools with our hormones and that causes the problems? My onc told me the insomnia is pretty bad for some women but at the time I spoke to him, I was okay. My older son told me a certain amount of body builders(men) take tamoxifen to build a better body mass. I wouldn't have thought that. So who knows how all this stuff affects us as individuals with our own body chemistry?

Saluki, I'm 42 now and also wasn't near menopause. The sweat beads up all over me but it feels more as if it's the heat's trapped inside and I feel as if all the air was sucked out of the room. I wondered about my reaction and then was reading some of the info on this site(not the bulletin boards) and bc.org stated that some women feel they're suffocating. That's a perfect description. They've definitely gotten much worse since with time.

Last night, I took 3 Hylands Calms, took my cal/mag, Had a big cup of hot dandyblend(has bunches of trace minerals), took tylenolpm(bc.org also said a mild analgesic can help) and a melatonin. I skipped the ativan and valerian(I take it in water and didn't want to fill my bladder!).

And for the first time in weeks, I slept from 1:30am straight to 7:30am! 6 blessed hours. I don't know if it was the new combo or exhaustion but it was wonderful. I certainly didn't wake up with any hot flashes for that entire time. 

Or listening to your story, Saluki, could it be the Ativan that's been causing the problems? EIther way, your story was interesting. I have had weird reactions to meds most of my life. In fact in the last 2 months of chemo, I kept breaking out in hives all over my body. They knew it was one of my meds but couldn't figure out which one.

So tonight, I'll try what I did last night, stay off the GABA for a few days. See if this was a fluke.  

Saluki--I wouldn't get a moment's sleep if I had my furbabies in bed with me! 

saluki

I guess you can see who is in charge at my house. Yes, the sleeping arrangements leave allot to be desired.  As to the Fur-babies, one sleeps in the hollow of my knees, another in the hollow of my back and the third in the crook of my neck.

Turning is a major maneuver.  And tinkling--well thats everyones cue to run off for a drink or after-hour snack till I jump back into bed---at which point its a race for the best spot and we go through the whole maneuver again.

I'm getting my sister's fur-babies next week while she is away---

OH Joy--including me that will be 6 of us maneuvering for bed space.

I hope the Skullcap arrives in time. LOL

ettevyva

I am reading the new research to NOT take Gaba or gaba increasing supplements (valerian, melatonin, or passionflower, etc) if you have or have had breast cancers as the new research says the cancer cells can disquise themselves as Gaba and go to the brain and cause a brain tumor.  It's on several Breast cancer research journals and science reports for 2014:   Some of the titles of the reports are: Breast
cancer cells disguise themselves as neurons to cause brain tumors AND 

Human breast cancer metastases to the brain display GABAergic
properties in the neural niche