Rosemary...tell us about magnesium!

Anonymous

Of course, I invite anyone who knows about the value of magnesium, the proper dosage and the form that should be used to contribute here. Since Rosemary is our nutrition guru, as well as an advocate of magnesium, her input would be valuable too.

I'm having severe foot cramps, always after teaching a heavy-duty aerobics class or running a few miles on non-teaching days. I stretch very well, wear excellent shoes purchased specifically for the oddities of my feet (former figure skaters' feet are mighty odd!) and wear good socks. Anyway, I also take magnesium, based on all of the advice & info I've gleaned from this board. I take 500mg of chelated magnesium (bottle says "as magnesium amino acid chelate, magnesium oxide") that I purchase at Whole foods....Country Life brand. My question....am I taking enough? Am I taking a good form of it? I was under the impression that "chelated" implied better absorbtion, but perhaps I'm wrong about that..?

Any thoughts/advice/input?

~Marin

saluki

Marin--I've been taking Magnesium for five years now.  I used to take it in a 2/1 ratio of magnesium to calcium which is the opposite of what is recommended---but than I was taking it to help with RSD and the spasms.

I found the Magnesium oxide much less effective than Magnesium Citrate.

I'm now taking a 1/1 ratio of magnesium to calcium  which is still more than the recommended dose of magnesium--and of course taking

D3 (2000mg daily).

I find that the Magnesium Citrate runs rings around any of the other forms I've taken. WAY MORE EFFECTIVE---- NOW puts out an oral form both in capsule and in powder.  I think you could easily get the magnesium citrate powder into any of your drinks.--Rosemary will probably have an idea of what drinks work the best as it is a bit acidic on the stomach with OJ. 

One other observation Marin--Are you getting enough Potassium? 

Rosemary44

Marin,

It's true as Susie says, magnesium oxide is the worst for absorption.  Why do they sell it?   And you have to look very closely at the ingredients and keep looking for that oxide word. 

Now sells the powdered form of Mg citrate.  I only buy the powder because I can easily fool around with the amount I want to take and it dissolves quicker to get to work.  Orange juice is the choice to mix it with cause that's acidic and it helps it to dissolve.  But I use cranberry juice too.  Nice pink color.  Don't get O.J. with added calcium in it because calcium wins the absorption war.  Also, B6 low dose, helps with Mg absorption, and I'm sure your drinking at least 80 ozs of filtered water a day for muscle cramping?  Coffee does not work towards that 80 oz of water.  You'll feel night and day better as soon as you find the right dose for yourself. 

You do want to keep your other minerals up too.  Calcium and potassium.  I bought some potassium gluconate, and now I'm wondering what the heck is gluconate anyway?  Unless Kris happens by, I'm into researching gluconate.  Anyway, potassium helps regulate water balance in our body.  I could use some of that balance, but I don't know what "gluconate" is.  And it's bone healthy.  I hope this helps.

dash

I just started taking Pete Gillham's Natural Vitality Natural Calm Magnesium. It gets a lot of good reviews from people on Iherb.com -- I'd post a link but for some reason I can't copy and paste on this site anymore(anyone know why?) I bought the plain and the raspberry-lemon both to be mixed in hot water until disolved. It's the powdered citrate form and pretty affordable online. I hope it does all it says it can do--I need it(all)! 

Bliz

The only magnesium citrate at the Health Food store was Nature's Way, "Magnesium Complex (citrate blend)".  Will that do the trick?  The ingredients are 500 mg magnesium as citrate/oxide.  I am not opening the bottle till I get the okay from you guys.

Is it better to take in morning or night?

Erica3681

bay,

Thanks for the mention of iherb.com. I'll check it out. I had the same question about links and emailed tech support. What you need to do is highlight the item you want to create as a link. When you do that, you'll notice that a little "link", like a chain link, get highlighted in the tool bar. Click on it and you can enter your link's url. Hope that helps.

I've been reading that, along with magnesium citrate, magnesium taurate (or taurinate) and magnesium glycinate also absorb well. Anyone know anything about those forms? The one I currently use is 67% amino acid chelate and the rest magnesium oxide, but they don't say what amino acid. I think that makes a difference.

Marin, just a thought about the cramps. Have you tried drinking a glass of tonic water a day? That completely relieved my pretty severe leg cramps while I was taking Tamoxifen and then Femara.  

Barbara

BreastFree.org 

Anonymous

Thanks for all of the input, you guys! I'll be looking for magnesium citrate as well as a potassium supplement. I don't take any additional supplement for potassium other than what's in my multivitamin.

Thanks also for the reminder about water. Ever since chemo, my intake has remained low (I know, I should know better!) and I think I'll need to make more effort in that regard.

Thanks also, Barbara, for the tonic water tip. I can't drink it though because I have Myasthenia Gravis and can't have anything with quinine.

And how much magnesium is optimal?

~Marin

dash

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=5124&at=0

Thanks Barbara for the tips--I actually did it by a different method, though!--I clicked on the the little clipboard with a T on it in the Add a comment to this conversation box.  I couldn't do it the other way.

It's not a clickable link though, darn! 

saluki

Marin,

Since you have MG.  You may want to get your Magnesium levels checked.

When I was at my onc yesterday;  not only did they do my LFTs (which they do every three months cause mine are high)--but, they did the works including Magnesium levels, D3, an ANA profile.  Bunch of other stuff.

I think getting your magnesium levels would be particularly important for you because, although that deficiency in MG is common---too much magnesium could be more problematic for you because it acts as a muscle relaxant (which is primarily why I take it) and could cause extreme weakness in MG.

 Other levels you may want to check that is also a common deficiency is

Manganese and I'd also check Potassium. 

BlindedByScience

Hi, Rosemary

Gluconate is derived from glucose as gluconic acid which binds with potassium, calcium, magnesium and some other elements. Here's a brief description from the www.jungbunzlauer.com website:

Potassium gluconate is the potassium salt of gluconic acid, which is obtained from glucose by fermentation and subsequent neutralization with a potassium source. Physiologically, gluconic acid is an important intermediate product of the carbohydrate metabolism.

Potassium gluconate is recommended for introducing or enriching potassium in food, especially in dietetic food. Furthermore the product acts as a buffer salt and as a salt replacer in foodstuffs where sodium salts are not desired.

In pharmaceuticals, it serves as a potassium source against potassium deficiency or as a systemic alkalizer.

Rosemary44

Thanks Kris,

I couldn't find anything about gluconate.  So it's a form of salt?  Not that I'm taking much of it, only 550 mgs.  I've read we need any where from 3.4 to 4.6 grams of potassium daily.  Impossible to do thru foods alone.  I'd like to keep it up cause we shouldn't be taking one mineral over the others.  We want to keep a happy balance.

Marin,

The optimal dosage of Mg is the dosage your body is comfortable with and that could be at 225 mgs.  A half of teaspoon of Now Mg powder is 225 mgs.  Start there for a few days, still have muscle cramping then add a little more the next day for a few more days till all cramping goes away, and you'll find your dose.  You don't want to go overboard because you'll be living in a bathroom.

Actually, I get by with just a half of teaspoon daily, but I take a calcium and mg citrate supplement in the evening which are combined, so I'm taking close to 550 mg daily, but I don't think I'm absorbing too much from the combined supplement. 

Plus, you don't have to take it every day.  It's something to use for cramping, but once you get enough water in daily, your need for Mg might change.  For myself,  I usually have to take it daily or I'll start to feel things happening.  I take it for mood besides muscles, and to maintain mood, it needs to be taken daily.   You wouldn't want to go beyond 800 mgs daily because we do eat foods with Mg in them also.  

Rosemary44

Bliz,

Some people think Mg helps to put them to sleep.  So take it at night if you like a nice restful sleep.  I wouldn't open that bottle.  Look for straight Mg citrate.  Iherb does sell it on-line.  I buy from them.

Anonymous

Rosemary (and all)...thanks for all of this info. I'll see about getting my levels checked, but since my insurance (Blue Cross) refused payment for my last liver panel (!), I'm doubting that they'll go for all of the other tests and I cannot afford to pay out-of-pocket.

I'll find a better source of magnesium though since it sounds like my stuff isn't any good. It will have to be pills though because I work 2 jobs and am constantly running around...no time for mixing or even thinking about it. If I don't take everything at once in the morning (all 10 vits/supplements), I don't get them in and it all becomes very sporadic. As it is, I miss my calcium alot because it needs to be taken so much later than the thyroid med!

As for the magnesium dosage, then, are you saying I should stop the 500 mg that I've slowly built up to and start over with 225 mg? The larger dosage sees to help my sleep so I'm reticent about going back down again.....hmmmmmm....this is getting a bit confusing !

Oh, I'll also need to work on getting more potassium because my multivit only supplies a very minimal amoutn and I really don't eat nearly enough food as it is, never mind enough potassium-rich food!

~Marin

TenderIsOurMight

You ladies are convincing me! I'm the slow poke on this...yet I do suffer mightily from chronic muscle aches and spasms.



I just need to go do it! I guess since none of my doctors even talked about Magnesium, and only suggest 1000 mg of Vit D at most, I need to get my own act together. Dah..



Maybe it will give me more energy too.



Thanks for all your great insight and encouragement. Marin, a great thread. I missed Blundin's as I must have had my head in the sand, so I'll read that too.



Tender

althea

Thanks y'all for doing this thread.  I've been taking magnesium since August, and it's the oxide variety, and further down the list, it says magnesium stearate.  I need a new bottle real soon and I'll be looking for the citrate variety next time. 

Is the test for magnesium levels a blood test?  Anyone know the abbreviation?  I have paperwork from my ob/gyn and my onc to try and get as much mileage out my next set of labs as possible.   

TenderIsOurMight

Serum Mg+ level means the same as serum magnesium level.



Yes, I'm going to try to find some today also.



Tender

Bliz

I took the oxide back and got "Peter Gillham's natural calm magnesium supplement".  It's a powder and 3 tsps is 615 mg of magnesium citrate.  Kind of expensive. 

Today was Femera day, (twice a week per onc), so it woud be great if the magnesium helped.  I usuallly have a difficult time sleeping on Femera day.

Rosemary44

Marin,

Yes, you're going to start all over again because a low dose might work for you.  It does for me.  If I forget to take it one day I feel it and will double the dose the next day.  That's why I like the powder so much. 

About the blood test for Mg levels.  Our body works in wonderous ways, what it needs it takes from where ever it can find it.  So unless you are severly deficient it won't show up in the blood test.  It takes it from our muscles to get the level correct to keep our heart beating correctly.  So eventually your muscles begin to ache, you get jumpy legs, but the blood levels could still look good. 

The only way to know if your deficient is by taking the Mg, if your muscles begin to feel better, you needed it.  If your panic attacks go away, you needed it.  Mood gets better, you needed it.  Sleep better, etc.  At first you notice nothing, then one day it hits you, __X__ isn't happening anymore.   I hope this helps.

saluki

In Myasthenia Gravis there can be a Magnesium deficiency---but you have to be careful because supplementing Magnesium is sometimes contraindicated in patients, and may actually cause deterioration with that condition, so --I'd tread gingerly.

Gotta tell you Marin--Lately, I've been plagued with horrid foot cramps --And I probably get more Magnesium than everyone.  Anyway, I started taking a separate potassium supplement and that stopped the cramps in their tracks. If I stop the potassium they start right back up.

I find that weird since my potassium levels were normal when last checked. 

I also find if I take the Magnesium at night I sleep better.  I do the same as Rosemary--The Magnesium by itself early in the day and the calcium magnesium together before bed. 

Marin--One other thing--being a biller/coder  I can tell you that if you don't code with the right diagnosis Blue Shield will always refuse to pay. Even Medicare gets away with that stunt once in a while.   You may want to investigate whether they will pay for the levels with an MG diagnosis.  The reason for your labs always have to match a diagnosis.

DHEA is supposed to be very helpful but if you are ER+/PR+ I'd stay far away.

Don't know if you've seen this from LEF but thought it may be of interest re:supplements

Doesn't mention manganese but I think thats a very important one as is the potassium. 

http://www.lef.org/protocols/neurological/myasthenia_gravis_01.htm 

Blundin2005

Marin,

You have very good information here, seems hardly a need for more ....



These special ladies helped me to learn more about magnesium a couple of months ago and I'm very appreciative. Like Rosemary said ... When "...X..." is gone, than magnesium helped. For my the "x" was joint pain relieved significantly, mood very much improved, anxiety attacks gone.



I take it daily. In fact, I noticed that if I am slack or forget to take the supplement, I notice the symptoms return. Like yesterday....I woke early to get a start on baking cookies for gifts. I went full out from 10 am until 3 pm. That's when I realized I forgot to take my mag...by then I was moving from one thing to the other....clean up the kitchen from cookies, prep for dinner....check the emails....fold the clothes in the dryer....edit my paper.....well you know how it goes. So this morning I woke with more joint pain which = less sleep....so...woke, went upstairs to make coffee and take morning meds...read my book..wait for the time to pass to take my mag....and did.



Tt's rare that I forget my supplement. It's much more fun to be smiling and joking with my husband again.



The cautions to balance the other elements I think are an important reminder....potassium, calcium, vit d3, etc.



Best wishes to all....as always

NativeMainer

I am a firm beleiver in individualized supplementation, and have been following this thread with great interest.  I just want to add 2 points for consideration:  Postassium (K+) is elinimated by the kidneys -- around 90% of what is eaten is eliminated in the urine the same day.  So, if you have kidney problems, be careful, as elevated K+ levels can cause muscle weakness and irregular heart beat.  ACE inhibitors (lisinopril, enalapril, Vasotec, Prinavil) given for high blood pressure and heart failure, also cause the kidneys to hold more K+.  Some people who take and ACE inhibitor and potassium based salt substitutes have developed dangerously high K+ levels. 

Magnesium (Mg+) works as a laxative in doses higher than needed. I take Mg+ for depression and have to cut back or stop it for a few days every so often when I get diarrhea. 

Please, don't think I am recommending anyone stop using these supplements, I'm not!  I just think these are important effects to be aware of.  After all, knowledge is power! 

Anonymous

Wow, so much to process (literally!), but this info makes me hopeful. I sleep well and never have any anxiety or panic, but knowing that my body is in balance means so much to me and the foot cramps are telling me that it's not so. So I'm resolving to re-think my magnesium (and getting Mg citrate in powder form) and adding potassium....have to look up the RDA somewhere?...to my daily regimen.

Susie....you mentioned DHEA...even if I was convinced that that would help me, I saw a horrifying episode of Dr. G, Medical Examiner which showed a woman who was obsessively taking multitudes of supplements and overdosing on many of them. Her continuous overdosing on DHEA actually killed her! I don't even want to look at that stuff now!

~Marin

saluki

Marin -I agree with you about the DHEA.  I've always viewed it as scary stuff.  Probably before your time but e used to have a very intelligent, if not one of the more controversial member of these boards named Marinza. Class of 02-03.   She was ER-/PR- and swore by the stuff.---Said it gave her a new lease on life.  Know it increases strength.

But this is one of those supplements I would think could fuel a cancer.---Its on my scary supplement list.

Native Mainer ---Thanks for the warning about the interaction between Ace

inhibitors and potassium.  I take Lisinopril.  But, I have an additional consideration because I am on Protonix, a proton pump inhibitor like Prilosec and Aciphex, I am probably not absorbing some nutrients as I should because of the way that class of medications work.  I am however, followed very closely with labs.

Frankly, I think the cramping was a result of a paradoxical reaction to SSRI's----massive sweats.----No more of that stuff for me!  Lately I've found a natural way to deal with both my mood and pain issues (including the Magnesium citrate and D3)---(there is some research that D3 levels can effect pain.)----continually refining, adding, and modifying what I'm taking.

Thankfully, my Physiatrist (That's a Doctor that specializes in body mechanics, physical rehabilitation, and pain management) is working along with me.  

I do agree with you that the interactions between these herbs, supplements and their interaction with our current medications is often overlooked.

Some of these supplements can have just as many side effects and should be treated with the same respect that we have for any medication we put in our bodies. 

JapanLynn

Great info on this thread...thanks!  Since my dx I've been very faithful about taking my supplements; before it was hit or miss.

I have a question re: supplements in general.  I've always thought that the cheaper store brands were the same as the more expensive ones, if the amounts listed on the bottles were the same.  I work with a woman who takes--literally--dozens of supplements daily that she orders from Swanson.  She's telling me that there's a definite difference between the ones she takes and the cheaper ones, and she's encouraging me to order online.  Any truth to this, or is she just a little obsessive?

It's much easier to run to the local store when I'm getting low, but I want to do what's best for my health.  Any opinions?

Lynn

saluki

Lynn--Your friend is right. ---All supplements are not created equal.  Notorious differences have been found in Co-Q10.  Lead has been found in some supplements.  I take Sam-e and 1200 of one brand can equal less than 800 of another--- I could go on and on.

You may want to look at the iherb website.  The companies they deal with have a pretty good track record.  NOW puts out good quality at a good price.

Unfortunately, you are in an area where you have to do your homework.

Sometimes the additional ingredients may make a difference in a supplements absorption, so---and now is the additional concern about the purity of these products since many of them come from countries that don't have our standards.---going with a quality company adds one more layer of protection.

Yes, in this area you can be penny-wise and pound foolish. 

althea

Thanks to this thread I now have a bottle of Pete Gillham's magnesium.  I really hope to see some benefits soon.  I've been feeling like a lethargic limp rag lately.  I had been taking the magnesium in the morning.  I was taking 250 mg of magnesium oxide daily, which seemed to help initially but then it seemed like it wasn't benefitting me anymore.  I have a heck of a time getting to sleep, so I'll be drinking the magnesium in the evening from now on.  Had my first cup last night.  I liked it.

I am also getting back into the juicing habit.  I've had 12 oz's of fresh squeezed carrot juice every day for a week.   

Rosemary44

In reality, we are suppose to be getting potassium from foods, not supplementing it.  There are days when I feel a water build-up and I'll take a potassium pill.  Check out bok choy for potassium content.  Acorn squash would come to our rescue, but what the heck is that? 

http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/produce/list_veg.html

I found acorn squash, it's also called winter squash.  Now I have to find out if it can be juiced.

Bliz

I will continue to read labels, but as someone here said, there is soy and other possibly carcinogenic fillers/ingredients in just about everything. 

I still believe it is a mixed signal and bag and we have to come up with our own solutions in some ways.  At least my onc admitted about many things, they just do not know.  Like why AE's for five years?  Because Tax was five years, but beyond that, they do not know.  So there is still a lot of guess work on the part of the medical profession.

Towanda2

Rosemary, thanks for the veggie nutritional info link!  Acorn squash has the shape of a big acorn about the size of a grapefruit.  Here's a good recipe for winter squash soup, from Mollie Katzen of the Moosewood Restaurant.  It's snowing like crazy today and a nice pot of soup would be terrific.

CURRIED SQUASH, MUSHROOM, AND ORANGE SOUP

Adapted from: Moosewood Cookbook
Preparation time: 45 minutes
Yield: 4 to 6 servings

    

2 medium-sized acorn or butternut squash (about 4 pounds)
A little oil for the baking tray.
3 1/2 cups orange juice
2 tablespoons butter or oil
1 cup minced onion
2 tablespoons minced fresh ginger
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
2 teaspoon ground cumin
1/2 teaspoon ground coriander
1/2 teaspoon cinnamon
2 teaspoons dry mustard
1 tablespoons minced garlic
1/2 pound mushrooms, sliced
Cayenne to taste
Fresh lemon juice to taste
Yogurt for the top

1. Preheat oven to 375°F. Split the squash in half lengthwise, remove the seeds, and place face-down on a lightly oiled baking tray. Bake until very soft (30 to 40 minutes). Cool, then scoop out the insides. Measure out 3 cups of squash, place it in a food processor or blender with 1 1/2 cups of the orange juice, and purée until smooth. (You may need to do this in batches.) Transfer to a soup pot, and stir in the remaining orange juice.
2. Melt the butter or heat the oil in a skillet, and add the onion, ginger, salt, and spices. Sauté over medium heat until the onion is very soft (about 8 minutes). Add a few tablespoons of water, if necessary to prevent the spices from sticking.
3. Add the garlic and mushrooms, cover, and cook about 10 minutes over medium heat, stirring occasionally.
4. Add the sauté to the squash mixture, scraping the skillet well to salvage all the little tidbits of flavor. Add cayenne and lemon juice to taste.
5. Serve hot, topped with a little yogurt.

Rosemary44

I also wonder why AI's for 5 years.  Where did that magic number come from?  That 5 year number comes up in different topics also.  I read that once we stopped taking HRT's it would take 5 years to take a deep breath that we didn't get BC from it.  I didn't make it to 5 years.  That number does pop up here and there for some reason.

Towanda,

Thanks for the soup recipe.  Forget juicing the squash, that recipe sounds wonderful.  I might make it today, it finally became winter here today.  I'll have to introduce myself to acorn squash.  I never even heard of it before.  Thanks again.

Blundin2005

Hey Rosemary....



The magnesium has tendency to cause bloating (recall my BC surgeon reminded me of this.) So I drink karkade tea...a glass every day usually with lunch... and the gentle diuretic is effective.



Since you are more informed than I on the details of such matters...here's a web link...



http://www.drugs.com/npp/roselle.html .... so what do you think?



..the wine and cooking question...I agree that the alcohol is burned off..but not the flavor. We cook almost everything in a base of olive oil and white wine. Except the vegatables....they are eaten fresh or steamed.



I love the string beans steamed, then cooled, then a little olive oil and lemon juice sprinkled with sea salt...one of my favorites.



Sometimes I use balsamic vinegar on beef before I cook it. But mostly I use it for radicio (sp?) salad with oranges (best are blood red) and black olives.



I love the conversations when we start talking about food...



Best to all...as always