Polygamist Sect Under Investigation
Comments
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Can anyone tell me why these women are dressing like the 1800's? I understand modesty but why do the fashions have to be prairie dresses? And bouffant hair that ends in a braid?
I think they could find long sleeved, below the knee fashions, in a lot of stores, off the rack. Many christian and orthodox religions require modest fashions for women, especially when attending services.
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They remind me of the stepford wives-they are all have monotone voices! also they remind me of the women in Little House on the Prairie.
Dont get me wrong Im not sayng the way they dress and act is wrong (people are people no matter what-to each his own)-if that is how they are then that is fine-i(I dont want to offend anyone-so if I did I'm sorry).
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Freedom of Religion??? The children born into these sects have NO FREEDOM! They are kept bound by their elders and have no escape or choice. Their little minds are washed into believing that it is acceptable the way they live, they don't know any different and are victims in the hands of their elders.
I say round up all the men and elders who endorse this abuse of their own children. I see these men no better than pedophiles and their ideas of procreation only serve their sick need.
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Roctober and Laq,
That's the style of their community. It sets them apart. The women sew their own clothing, never buy "store-bought." They never cut their hair. Their teaching is that their hair is an ornament of God's glory. If they wore clothing that covered them from head to toe that looked like the "outside" worlds that would be saying they approved of the outside world's ways. They also wear one piece "holy" garments under their clothing that cover them from ankle to wrist. The way they dress is part of their religion. The women must be covered from head to toe to cover the religious undergarment.
Men and women of the LDS Mormon faith who are consecrated in the Temple or married in the Temple must also wear these garments, but they are normally sleeveless or short-sleeved and go to just above the knee/ thigh level.
There are other practicing polygamists who do somewhat resemble the "Big Love" show. They don't live in compounds, but normally in big cities in northern Utah, stay to themselves, and the wives have careers, dress however they want, etc. They are very low key as polygamy is illegal and if found out, the husband would go to jail, lose his job/career, etc.
Yes, it is really weird out there. The Mormons also have a record of every member, whether practicing or not, ever. They keep track of everything. Once you're on the roll, it is next to impossible to be removed. You have to petition for excommunication from the church of LDS.
Trust me, the men and women of that compound know exactly who those 416 children belong to and their lineage going back to Utah. It's indescribable that they would put their children through this, rather than claim their children now, before going forward with DNA testing.
Those men belong in prison ... especially the prophets and elders and whoever took the place of Warren Jeffs.
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RM-- shocker-- but there are people who don't dress for fashion. If you look at the Amish and the buggy Menonites, they dress in traditional clothing that you might criticize, but it is part of their culture. Of all the things this sect does, their dress is the least damaging to the children. BTW, prairie dresses were in fashion in the early 80s for a year or so-- as long as you had the big hair to go with it.
Crazydaisy, I agree with you about the children deserving freedom of religion, although I think the same could be said for any children. Most parents don't allow their kids to decide whether their want to practice the same faith as their parents or any faith. It's a given. When I was a kid most kids went to church or temple because their parents made them, not out of choice.
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Amy ... step back. Roctober asked a very valid question about why the women and children dress the way they do. Her question wasn't about fashion. I explained why. It's part of their religion and having to cover their religious undergarments.
The younger children have no say in their religious upbringing. The older children question it on threat of excommunication and physical harm.
I had no say in my religious upbrining until after I finished catechism at the end of 8th grade in the Lutheran church. After that, I never went back.
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My children are grown. They've picked a different denomination than when they were young. Perhaps I didn't brow beat them hard enough! LOL
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I don't think they go shopping in stores and buy off the rack! That would be letting the outside world in to their world. It looks like they make most of their clothes, and that way they can save money. Many of the Amish and the Mennonite sects also dress in clothing they make themselves. It is part of their religious beliefs. Perhaps that's the same for this religious group.
And they rarely show the men. How do they dress? Do the women make their clothes?
Hey, Bren--any true info on Rocktobermom's questions and mine? I haven't a clue about the hair styles. I just assume that everything is dictated to them by the men. Am I wrong?
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Bren,
How about the men's clothing? Do the women make theirs also, or do they dress off the rack? Do they wear any special religious dictated undergarments like the women?
The news media has been so focused on the women and children; and I don't recall seeing photos of the men.
I agree with you about the men not stepping forward and claiming their children is shocking--but these are men willing to commit water torture to babies in order for them to grow up fearing their father and any male adult in the sect!
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Shirley-- maybe if you had more than one husband or if your husband had more than one wife you could have brainwashed them better
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Hi Grace,
In the FLDS, men buy jeans off the rack ... walmart, goodwill, hand-me-downs or sewn by the women. The women sew their shirts too. The clothes are handed down and around to the kids and other members. They buy at walmart, goodwill or sew all their clothes. All men and women of a certain age wear the "garments." I don't know what the age is. Certainly if they are married. My guess is around junior high age. They go through some sort of rite of baptism/consecration, if you will, into church.
Keep in mind there a fewer men than women in these communities. A number of teenage boys are booted out ("The Lost Boys"). They are told a number of reasons why, but in reality it is a supply and demand proposition. Not enough wives to go around. In the past, Warren Jeffs decided who got to live in the community, in what house, which man/boy married which girl. I don't know who the prophet is now.
In the regular LDS church, the men and women have to go through a series of religious training classes at the Temple and a very secret baptism/consecration type of ceremony to receive their garments. You could see the garments sometimes below their shorts or through their shirts. There is a Temple in St. George, near where I lived. Actually St. G. was the closest town to me.
The FLDS women and children are raised in extreme fear and in my opinion the only peace they can find is to actually believe in their faith. The women know what's on the outside now. It's not like the first time I was there 30 years ago when it was truly a closed society. It had really changed when I lived there a couple of years ago.
Now, that area is flooded with very rich retirees, lots of spiffy golf courses and spas, and a shuttle to Vegas!!
Oops gotta run ... huge lightning and thunder storm!!!
Bren
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Amy, SHOCKER, we can all count on you to come back at me.
Besides the women on this board, has anybody else compared you to a gnat buzzing around?
oops! I must be using my outside voice!
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Curious to know more abuout the Jews and inbreeding I'm Jewish info please Amy
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Snowy- I just know about the ashkenazi Jews, not sure about the other ones.It has to do with several things-- because Jews have a history of only marrying in their religion, there is more of a genetic link than there are with other cultures who (for lack of better word) bred between cultures. Because of this-- the genetic link between husband and wife was closer up the chain than for others. For instance, you know how geneticists found out Barack Obama and Dick Cheney are distant cousins-- probably 10 or 20 times removed. If they took all of the ashkenazis they would be less removed, maybe even as closes as 4 or 5 times removed. If 3rd, 4th and 5th cousins continued to marry for generations, the genetic make up of people within those communities has a lot of similarities and common traits. We get 2 pairs of genes, one from our mother and one from our father. Dominant traits prevail when there is a dominant and recessive gene, but when there are two recessive genes, the recessive gene become the trait -- as with tay sachs-- which is why the disease is common in Jews. There are a whole host of other diseases that we have more of a likelihood of getting than the general population, including the BRCAs, even though they aren't recessive. There's a more medical term than inbreeding-- I think it might be consanguity,but it means the same thing.
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BinVa .. thanks for your genuine response to my genuine question.
"Some" people need to act their age and not their shoe size.... Amy, is English your second language?
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One final comment about the clothes and finances of the FLDS communities. Awhile back I posted about how the men and their elder sons apply for credit cards and the sister-wives are on welfare through the state of AZ. The one community is only about a mile into AZ. The other one is in UT about a mile from the other. All of the sister-wives can use the addresses of the AZ town to apply for welfare in AZ. The men control the credit cards and can buy what they want ... blue jeans, trucks (very big trucks), etc., with those credit cards. The women MUST turn over all the money they receive from welfare to their husbands. They are completely and totally dependent on their husbands for their needs and their children's. Also, a large portion of that welfare money went to Jeffs. They must tithe vast amounts to the prophet to keep his enterprise going.
I dated a guy who was a sales mgr for a truck dealership in the nearby town of Cedar City. He told me that was how all the polygamist men bought their vehicles. Nobody would go out to Colorado City to repossess these vehicles when the bills weren't paid. When the credit ran out, they would have their elder sons apply for more credit cards.
Rocktober ... I understood your question. Their dress and hair styles are strange, and they do identify them as polygamists in Utah, much the same as the Amish dress or Mennonites in PA or other areas of the country.
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Snowyday, here is a link about inbreeding, it is quite interesting. It is from Wikipedia which is not always the best source but there are several references...
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RM-- have you ever sat back and read some of your responses to? Is this the kind of example you're proud of setting for your daughter? I really feel sorry for her if the answer is yes. News flash, we're not in middle school any more. Attacking a person is different than attacking an opinion. I keep trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you're making that difficult.
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Where's my fly swatter?
Amy, wasn't this PERSONAL:
"RM-- I don't believe you're as superficial as some of your posts come off. It's hard to believe in the face of what these children and women have been through you're making fun of their clothes and criticizing their fashion. Are you as mean as your posts to me come off? Does martyrdom empower you?"
You and your mail order degree need to go get a life. You HYPOCRIT.
This is the 2nd time you have brought up my daughter. Leave her out of it YOU SCUMBAG.
Ladies, and that term doesn't include Amy, thank you for the lovely PMs and emails. I would love to share them here but Private means private. I guess I would use the term "bottom of the barrel" too!
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Our dear Joanne who passed a few weeks ago recommended the book ESCAPE (she had a blog of books she read with reviews), by Carolyn Jessops. She was married to Merrill Jessop. Wife #4, 8 children.
I just finished the book when this hit the news. If you read this book you would not hesitate taking those children out. Not all households are abusive, but many are. These women have no control and no way out. They feel if they are not obedient they will not go to heaven. If they are not obedient they are subjected to ridicule, abuse as are their children.
The women believe the only way to get to heaven through their husbands.
I do watch Big love (why I bought the book). I like big love. It does touch on FLDS, but only on a high level.
It is sad. The entire situation. I feel for these women and children. They have little hope of freedom or choices. Similar to the woman with the Taliban rules.
When I read the book, religion was hardly mentioned as a spiritual guide but as rules. Very sad.
Janis
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Actually, I remember about a class I took on ORACLE databases. The instructor helped write the huge Database for the LDS church.
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Nancy Grace (yes, I now she's not a journalist), had a segment on last night, showing the dollar amounts the taxpayers are shelling out to support the cities of Hildale, Colorado City and the compound in Texas. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in welfare payments, medi-cal for kids and mothers and food stamps.
It's amazing to me that this practice has been, and continues to, thrive in whole towns in UT and AZ and the authorities have done nothing. But, one phone call in TX, and the authorities are on it!! Not so strange, afterall, the LDS church does not run the state of Texas, as it does the state of Utah.
In my opinion, the LDS church does not want attention drawn to the FLDS sect. It puts a bad light on the entire Mormon faith. There have been numerous reports of abuse coming out of Colorado City by the Lost Boys, no one has gone there to investigate. Finally, one woman brought charges on Jeffs in St. George and he was prosecuted. There have been attempts by non-legal authorities to get teenage gals out of there, but it is very dangerous, and not always successful.
I hope what is happening in Texas blows the lid wide open on what is happening in UT and AZ, and the authorities in those states will now be forced to take some action.
PS - Janis, the LDS church has the most extensive genealogy data base in the United States.
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I worked for a Municipality for 20 years and really became upset with Welfare abuse. I remember a women coming in wearing a full length real fur coat applying for welfare, she applied met the criteria so she got it, even though we knew in our small town that her family had her covered, happens often but if you follow the guidelines and policies those to apply and sign over the right to check bank accounts etch and are eligible they get it.
BinVA I hope that what is happening in Texas does blow the lid on it.
We know the women are doing what the men say either in fear or to help the community it's just all sad. I'm still wondering how the women are doing, the ones that decided to stay with their children. I hope and pray that they have the strength to stay away and stay with their children. And the lost boys, oh my that breaks my heart I just can't get my head around the fact that that happens and the women have been so brainwashed or in fear to allow that to happen to their sons. It must be interesting to live so close to all of this, to me it would be a mystery, I remember having to house calls for people on welfare are they just so overworked that that never happened or wasn't ever an issue? It's shocking to me that so much money went to the compound and no one administrating the welfare system didn't raise a red flag on it, wow. I heard they are starting the genetic testing this morning I'm sure that won't be public knowledge but boy it will be interesting, I wonder how much bc there is in that community (the compound). I'm babbling.
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Amy are you Jewish as well?
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Yes I am snowy-- jewish atheist.
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Amy, yes, the lovely pms and support that I have received today are probably a testament to the support, love and friendship that I have given and received.
I will repeat YOU SCUMBAG! You are a complete scumbag for bringing my daughter into this!
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Amy, (tap, tap, tap) I guess I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reply to RM's post.
Amy, why must you do WHAT YOU DO? I still think it had something to do with your childhood. That you liked seclusion more than interaction. That's what I got out of one of the posts you posted. Perhaps it's time for some couseling.
No one here has ever said anything about your personal choices...social or religious.
I KNOW you don't have any idea what it is like to be a parent. Ya don't talk about one's children! RM is a wonderful mom. Have you seen what her daughter did for a project about bc? It was WONDERFUL. RM is raising her daughter to be sensitive, caring and loving.
Some subjects are off limits. And parenting is one of them. You do not have a clue!
Where's the damned fly swatter!? I've got this annoying mosquito buzzing around my ear!
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BinVA, thank you for sharing things you know about FLDS communities. I had been wondering about just the logistics of some things, like what happens to the men who are 'leftover'? Clearly there is an imbalance created by so many wives belonging to one man. How despicable to isolate the sons their entire lives and then just toss them out on their ear! I think it is a testimony of how strongly these women are controlled. How else could a mother be compelled to agree to such cruelty?
My biggest question has already been mentioned in this thread -- where are the 'men'??? Considering this is such a patriarchal society, how is it that the women are the ones foisted in front of the cameras and appearing in court?
This is where I feel like namecalling. I will refrain, partially because I don't approve of namecalling, even though these 'men' deserve it exponentially. Even if I made an exception this time, it would take me too much time to think of adequate words to ream them a few new ones. I don't know what these 'men' are doing, but I have no doubt whatsoever that every one of them belongs in jail. Even if they weaseled out of the polygamy charges with an assertion that just one wife is 'on record' and all the others are 'under the table', the authorities can still bring untold number of charges just for child abuse. Talk about child predators! Geez louise!
Those 'men' deserve a life sentence for every child borne by an underage girl, and that would be just the tip of the iceberg of the abuse experienced by the children in that community. If the authorities do anything less than put those men in jail, well, they should've just left every last member of the community alone. None of this will ever come to a close if the men are allowed to walk free. To quibble about welfare assistance, in my mind, is to worry about a splinter in the midst of a logjam.
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