Presidential debates on ABC right now-both parties

First the Obama lies:

Obama Was A Constitutional Law Professor:

. . . Obama Made This False Claim In His 2004 Senate Race. "Several direct-mail pieces issued for Obama's primary [Senate] campaign said he was a law professor at the University of Chicago. He is not. He is a senior lecturer (now on leave) at the school.

Obama: I don't take Lobbyist money:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.asp?id=N00009638&cycle=2008

No, he takes it from individuals instead as they all do.

Changing his war stance:

WASHINGTON - In July of 2004, the day after his speech at the Democratic convention catapulted him into the national spotlight, Barack Obama told a group of reporters in Boston that the United States had an "absolute obligation" to remain in Iraq long enough to make it a success.

"The failure of the Iraqi state would be a disaster," he said at a lunch sponsored by the Christian Science Monitor, according to an audiotape of the session. "It would dishonor the 900-plus men and women who have already died. . . . It would be a betrayal of the promise that we made to the Iraqi people, and it would be hugely destabilizing from a national security perspective."

The statements are consistent with others Obama made at the time, emphasizing the need to stabilize Iraq despite his opposition to the US invasion. But they also represent perhaps his most forceful language in depicting withdrawal from crisis-ridden Iraq as a betrayal of the Iraqi people and a risk to national security.

Obama spoke out passionately against the war in 2002 as an Illinois state senator, while many in Congress were silent. But his thinking on how to resolve the crisis in Iraq evolved.

During his 2004 Senate race, he supported keeping troops in Iraq to stabilize the country. But starting in 2005, as violence engulfed the country, he grew increasingly disillusioned.

Now, Obama's views about the war have become a campaign issue, as Hillary Clinton - who voted for the war's authorization - has questioned whether Obama has been consistent in opposing the war.

Her husband, Bill, said Obama's depiction of his longstanding opposition to the war was a "fairy tale." And yesterday, news of an Obama adviser's comments that his promise to withdraw troops within 16 months represented only a "best-case scenario" further fanned questions about his Iraq views.

Tony Rezko:

During his 12 years in politics, Sen. Barack Obama nearly three times more campaign cash from indicted businessman, Tony Rezko and his associates, than he has publicly acknowledged, the Chicago Sun-Times has found.

Seven months ago, Obama told the Sun-Times his "best estimate" was that Rezko raised "between $50,000 and $60,000" during Obama's political career.

However, Obama has collected at least 250,000+ from Rezko and his circle. Additionally, Obama also has taken in an unknown amount of money from people who attended fund-raising events hosted by Rezko since the mid-1990s.

Flip-Flopper on Health Care:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/clinton-hopes-to-paint-obama-as-healthcare-flip-flopper-2008-01-22.html

Then we have the Rev. Wright which needs no further explaining.

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Amy, We now have a strong advocate for breast cancer, this is a breast cancer site.  Find your own advocate for lung cancer.  Is Barack too busy?  Write to him about it.

"There are rumors afloat out her in the West that she is secretive and a micromanager. How will she accomplish what she sets out to do if she is spending all her time watching over everyone's shoulder? And can she keep First Gentleman in line at the same time? There's also questions about how much Mr. Hillary will be involved in government"

More innuendo.  Stories out of the fertile minds of Hollywood maybe?

Obama is making it a huge deal that he has been against the war from the get go, and hasn't changed his position.  That is why there is so much chatter about it today.  He flip-flops, and the Senators would love to have such a man in the W.H. to manipulate as they please.

I saw Hillary on Ellen's show.  Bill's Mom died of breast cancer, so I can see why she is supporting our cause.  She also had a lot of positives about gay rights that she'd like to see initiated.  She can't bowl worth a damn though.

I guess a problem I have is thinking that we are "entitled" to health care coverage.  I agree that there are problems with the system we have, but I don't necessarily think the government should be making our decisions about it for us.

Grace,

A few comments on what you said. first of all I did not mean any disrespect in my comments about Hispanics.  It's just the opposite: I have a lot of respect for them going extra mile for their family.

Secondly the unemployment numbers are very interesting as they show for example that Asians who are also a smaller percentage of population are doing better than whites. And please don't rehash your story about those rich Aisan from Hong Kong who came here to build Mcmansions, there are very few of them. Most of my Aisans got it the old fashioned way by working here and saving  and "pushing" their kids to do well at school. There is a strong family bond: parents go to work and grandparents watch the kids , take them to school and then go to afterschool activities . And since generations  live together they are able to save money.

As far as India goes your information is somewhat outdated . There is a problem with workforce in Bangalore since their salaries are much much higher than they were 5 years ago when the oursourcing was at its height. To top off since there is so much demand for engineers , they change jobs so frequently . In fact there are some groups in HP that had to train people for the same position 3 times in 1 year as they kept leaving and thereby delaying schedules.  So the management realizing this stopped trying to "force" outsourcing . This is true in a lot of computer companies. IN fact I spoke with a outsourcing specialist that I met at a party and she told me that when is started the salary was  1:4 but now it is not even 1:2 and when you add all the overhead associated with coordination traveling , etc. it is a tough call.

The HP information is not outdated. I just got that from my source yesterday. And one of her co-workers is going to India tomorrow to train a large group of people to do the job she is trained to do. That is fact. I heard it right from the "horse's mouth." so to speak.



And many of the Asians are here on International visas. These students are sent thousands of dollars to go to school in the Bay Area. I know. My husband knows many of them in his work. These students have a monthly income of over $5K. They have parents in other countries pushing them to get their education and return home.



Yes, there are Asian cultures where the families do live together and everyone works. I met many of those students in those types of families when I was working in higher education. And those students could not wait to get out from under their parents' thumbs.



There are several communities in the Bay Area where the Asian population or Asian/Indian population is 85-90%. And believe me, they don't live all together in a small home. These are wealthy people who came to this country and brought their wealth. This country has been known historically to cater to the rich. If you come with enough money, you don't necessarily follow the immigration laws that are stipulated. There are always exceptions. They may say it is because so and so would be killed if they didn't get asylum, but many times it was not. When the Shah of Iran was made to leave his country, his wealthy counterparts immigrated to the US, with their millions!



I don't agree with you about the Asian unemployment numbers and what that means. Again, there is much stereotyping done when we speak about Asians and their "characteristics." They are simply not true. And as for working hard, or going the extra mile, we can say that about any group, so it really doesn't mean much about one group at all. There are varieties in all groups, and all groups are made up of individuals who are unlike each other in some ways, and more like others outside their groups in other ways.

Grace,

I am posting this separately to discuss your allegations of racism. I provided the government statistics as published. There is no racism here at all. In fact I deliberately did not draw any conclusions  just reported the facts.

I don't see why you need attack me for racism. You can dispute the numbers or explain the problems with the statistics but why kill the messenger ? Just recently you were espousing views that people should dicuss issues and attack each other and immediately you are implying that I am a racist.

When you add in that the largest percentage of our prison population is African American, and they are the smallest group identified as such in this country, it is no wonder the unemployment rate is so high.

I agree with you here, but whose fault is this ? Not the government one. I've been telling this before and I will continue telling it at the rsik of being called a racist: African American communitry is the only community that can solve its problem. The help cannot come fro outside, it has been tried with the welfare, foodstamps , etc and did not help at all. Until African American community can restore family infrastructure nothing will improve.

That's why hispanics are doing so well, they do have a family unit and they do push their kids as you correctly noted to go to college and get education so they can do better in life.

I remember there was a huge outcry when the government decided to cut educaiton in Spanish for Spanish native speakers in California schools. While the white liberals were yelling about racism and discrimination, the local news station showed an interview with an edlerly Mexican gentleman. He said "They teach my grandson in Spanish at school , so he can be a waiter and I teach him English at home so he can be a doctor". I was so moved by the wisdom of this man .

Inna,

I did not call you a racist. I did not imply you were a racist. I only used what was presented as an example for racism continuing in this country. I was responding to the comments that were made. I even made a point of saying that I wasn't assuming you meant anything derrogatory in your last comment. So don't accuse me of attacking you and immediatly implying you are a racist. They were government figures, but they don't tell the real story.



And as much as I would like to believe that it is up to the African American community to solve their problem (and there is more than one african american community in this country) it is not their problem to solve. It is the problem of this country. We all have a responsibility to help solve it. That is what it means to help our neighbors. We don't do that in this country. It doesn't mean food stamps,, or welfare or giving money to solve the problem. The problem will be solved when we have a justice system that is equitable for all. The problem will be solved when we don't keep repeating history. And what I mean by repeating history, is that we couldn't solve keeping the blacks down with Jim Crow laws, so we turned the plantations into prisons, and we continue to send people of color to prison for longer sentences than we do whites who commit the same crime. We tend to prosecute more and imprison more people of color. We don't provide equitable council for the accused. Those with money can hire very prominent lawyers, and "get off" with a lighter sentence. Perhaps we should limit the amount that can be spent on an attorney, or give everyone a public defender no matter how much money your family has, and then we will see if justice can be served equitably. There is aproblem in this country when over 50% of our high school students will not graduate from high school. And over 90% of high school students in inner city schools will not graduate from high school.



There are major problems with education, criminal justice, housing, jobs, etc. in this country. These affect all communities, and all communities must come together to solve them. One community cannot sit in a bubble and solve the problem. We whites haven't even been able to do that. It is well known that the majority of drug use in teenagers is found in well-to-do affluent suburban communities.



The hispanics don't push their children. The children push themselves. The Latina and Chicana women push to go to college. It is not something that many of their parents are doing. I know this. I have met many of them. These young women want a better life, for themselves and their children. These young college students send their financial aid money home to help their families.



The difficulties for African Americans has nothing to do with the family infrastructure. In fact, I would say that in our "white" communities there is even less family infrastructure. Certainly not like the good old days when the extended family lived close by and helped out. To say that all the troubles for African American communities will be solved with good sound family infrastructure is ludicrous.



It is up to this nation to come together and solve these problems, for all communities. We can't become a nation, until we can stand up and fight for each other, and bring each other up to the standard that we want for ourselves.



And I'm tired of the white liberals being blamed for wanting to keep Spanish in the schools. These white liberals are very smart. Living here in California as we do, we can see the rise of Spanish speaking individuals in this area. We can see the change in government that is coming, as Spanish speakers are elected to positions in government. We can see the job market, and the need for multilingual teachers, social workers, policemen, business employees, etc. This is a global market. If our children don't become bilingual or multilingual they will be very hard pressed to utilize that college education in a few years.



So, no one is calling anyone a racist. I just see how posting figures of unemployment like that can be misinterpreted if they are listed without any explanation. The comments that followed made the list even more of an example of how racism persists in this country. I'm sorry if you don't agree with me, but that's my opinion. And I'm surely entitled to that, and much more, seeing that I am a white woman, who I'm sure you've already labeled a liberal. And I'm proud to be so!!

It is what it is. The statements made speak for themselves. This is an example of how racism persists in this country. I am sorry you don't agree with me. But that's how I see it. The statements were made. I didn't make it up.



So, we want to make it difficult for Spanish speakers? We want them to be grades behind? Many of them go from school to school as their parents migrate to the fields to work all over this country? Why wouldn't we want to help them learn more quickly?



I'm upset about criminals and their treatment, because we don't treat criminals equitably. We treat them based on color of their skin. There are many books out that discuss the prison industrial system. How the prisons are being used to get work done by corporations. Most of these prisoners are paid pennies for their work, and the prisons make money hand over foot from the contracts. It's slavery again at its worst. The justice system does not try people fairly. There are not juries of their peers for the accused people of color. We don't have equality in this country. And we won't until we reform our prison system, our justice system, and our educational system. We punish the poor, and reward the rich. We put more African American prisoners to death than any white prisoners.



In some states, we still have indeterminate sentencing laws. In the south, we still have prisoners working in fields and roads, and sleeping in tents in the hot sun. Prison used to be a place of rehabilitation, now it's a place to not only doing the time, but being punished inhumanely in the process. Supermax prisons are all the rage, where prisoners stay in their cells 24/7 and if they are lucky get one hour a day in a "dog run," for their exercise. We are not educating nor rehabilitating prisoners. We need to educate them. With an education they can come out and be a useful citizen and productive. Spending years in a 8 ft cell by yourself is no way to rehabilitate anyone.



If we want law obiding citizens, as you state, then we need to reform the educational system. We need to provide college education for all our children. We need to give them opportunities to grow and learn. We aren't doing that now. Our educational system is near the bottom compared to other countries. There are thrid world countries that surpass us in educating their children. We should be shouting from the rooftops to change that. How embarrassing that a Powerful nation such as ours, can't even get more than 50% of their children to graduate from high school. Obviously, Bush's no child left behind law is a failure.

Grace,

Did you even read what I said about bilangual education? You have no idea what you are talking about. I and a lot of other people came from Russia and learned English just fine since no one was offering bilangual classes for Russians. Total immersion is the key to language learning! And  btw while Spanish and English have a lot of commonalities due to Latin, Russian and English do not.  The kids at school are the perfect age to be able to learn quickly.

I came here after high school and went to U.C.Berkley a year later. I did not even have English classes except for a month or two while looking for a job. I learned most of my Englsin on a job. I had to study hard to pass TOEFL (English for non-native speakers.). And when I got to Berkley , I went to lectures with a mini tape recorder since I had trouble understanding my professors. Guess what I survived and learned and I was 20 at the time, it is much easier for school age crowd. My husband went to high school here and his English is much better than mine.

Let me repeat again what that Mexican gentleman said

"They teach my grandson in Spanish so he can be a waiter and I teach him English so he can be a doctor"

There is a lot of wisdom and life experience in this man's words.

Shirley,

I agree with you regarding people coming here for education. Just look at our grad schools! It's easier for foreign students to get to grad schools than undergrad. And I think American governement is encouraging it as we don't have enough "home-grown" researchers.

"Let me repeat again what that Mexican gentleman said

'They teach my grandson in Spanish so he can be a waiter and I teach him English so he can be a doctor'

There is a lot of wisdom and life experience in this man's words. "

Tally one more on the total immersion side for me. 

Inna, congratulations, that is an impressive accomplishment. And I mean that sincerely. We do have language immersion classes for immigrants. It's run through the county office of education, and the classes are taught at local high schools. Many who can't read or write or speak English that come to our community college, are first directed there to learn English. And while that works for some, there are others that it doesn't work for.



For years, Mexicans have been coming here to pick the fruits and vegetables in our fields. They are migrant farm workers. There children move from school to school with the farming calendar in mind. They may travel from Indiana/Ohio, to Florida, to California. Not all the schools teach the same things in each grade. Every school is different. Many of these children are expected by their parents to pick in the fields also, as a way to help the family have money to live, to survive. These children need the move from Spanish to English differently that others. I heard that from teachers teaching on the Central Coast in Elementary schools. These teachers know these students, they know what these students need to succeed. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for all. that is the problem with our school system. We expect every student learns the same way and the same rate. That is simply not true. Educators know this, and need to help the schools transform into learning centers where there is integration of each discipline and hands-on exercises and practice. This way students learn how they will use the skills they gain in the global world. What works for you or me, doesn't mean that is the only way. It is just one way. We need multiple learning processes in place so students can learn visually and kinetically.



I think every student should be informed of the opportunity to attend college. I don't believe in testing at 8th grade and labeling students as trade school vs college ability. Students come into their own at different stages. For heaven sakes, I would never let someone tell me my child could not go to college. It should be my child's choice to go or not to go. We have so many college options and so many students who are never told it is a possiblity. This is what is called covert racism. It exists whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Sure, we need plumbers, etc. But why can't they have a college degree also? People will choose these trades themselves or enter the family business. Why should they be directed there first, why not suggest college first? Who knows, we might be eliminating someone who will grow up to be a world leader, or president of a university, or even president of the US. Why should how you look affect what you are told about higher education possibilities?



There are countries that are closely heterogenous to ours: i would say Great Britain, the Netherlands, Scandinavian countries. I'm sure there are more. Many immigrants are migrating to those countries rather than wait so long to enter the US. How is this relevant to our discussion?



Actually, some of us went ahead and sent our children to public schools, so we could try to institute some change and support the public school systems to improve what was taught and how it was taught. Sending children to private schools is fine for parents to do, it just means that the public schools in your area aren't going to change. If everybody who can afford to send their kids to private schools does so, that leaves those who can't or won't spend their money that way and kids are enrolled in public schools. I'm not saying that those who enroll in private schools are "rich," by any means, because of course there are parents who work overtime or extra jobs to pay for the private schooling. But again, it goes to what dollars are left for those public schools. Are there parents available to do fundraising? Are there parents to participate in school activities. For poorer parents, they are probably not going to be able to spend much above what their taxes are for education. They are probably working overtime or extra job to just survive--pay the utilities, food. rent/mortgage, etc.



My daughter went to a K-6 school that was parent participation. There were working parents there also. They gave in other ways if they couldn't work in the classroom one morning or afternoon each week. Some came to the fundraisers, or did calling, or mailings from home. Everyone was involved in their child's education. The children, even those in kindergarten, met at the beginning of the year with the teacher, and the children wrote the rules for the classroom. There were very few discipline problems because the children had a vested interest in the rules. Of course the rules were at a different level in Kindergarten than they were in say, 4th grade. And for each of the rules, the children decided the consequences. And all the teachers agreed, that the children were harder on them selves when it came to the consequences than the teachers would have been if they made the consequences. Any disagreements were handled one-on-one with the teacher or classroom aide mediating. These children were treated like individual persons. They were called by their first names, and they called the participating parents, class aides, and teachers by their first names. they were respected, and in turn they respected every adult in their classroom. The learning was integrated and hands-on. They had art, cooking, drama, as well as all the hard disciplines. They went on field trips to learn about science and math was integrated with all the cooking and art classes. They celebrated all the different cultures represented at the school. And the classes and what they learned were integrated into the cultural material they were learning.



We moved at the end of 6th grade, and my daughter was then enrolled in a traditional junior high (7-8th). She came home one day, and asked me why students were so disrespectful of each other and their teachers? We had a talk about what that meant to her. She said it was the first time she heard her peers call each other names and make mean comments about someone's dress or who they were talking to. This was a school that could have learned a lot from my daughter's grade school teachers. There was a need for respect and acceptance of others without judgement. To this day, I have yet to hear my daughter say anything unkind about anyone. We could have that for all our children if we could just reform the educational system in this country. It sucks!



And I don't think the answer is as simplistic as taking away a child's constitutional rights. I think we need to treat our children like we want to be treated. I don't want my rights taken away so I wouldn't want my child's taken away either.

 Grace,

Thanks for the compliment but I assure you my accomplishment is pretty much the same as most of my friends. We had to do what we had to do.

Your daugther's elementary school sounded amazing and I beleive  the key to their success was "parent participation".  And that's what is missing in Africn American communities today for a number of reasons. And if can improve this, the kdis will be so much better off.

I think you and I disagree in regards to equality in education and a value of a college degree. I think that a number of kids in high school would benefit if they were sent to a trade school instead of being forced to learn math that they have trouble understanding and never will use it in their life.

I remember when we were visting Europe (don't remember which country though ) a tour guide told us that in contrast to US not having a college diploma is not a negative thing there. He also said  their percentage of kids going to college was much lower than here but a lot did well as tradesmen. Have you considered a possiibility that a boy could be happier doing something with his hands than sitting in the classroom trying to understand physics equations?

We need to have a mandatory basic education but after this I beleive we should customize students paths to their abilities. Perhaps it would keep a number of kids out of trouble.

You are right about geography Inna-- it's embarrassing how little people in this country know about the rest of the world-- not just in geography but also history. The world map has changed a lot since I was a student and while I can place the Americas and most of europe on a map, I'm sure I wouldn't do very well with the rest of the world. I'm constantly suprised and impressed how much people from other countries know about the USA and its short history, yet embarrassed about how little most of us know about theirs.

To add to Grace's post, Inna, other than telling the african american community how it can improve, do you have any other solutions for the problems as you see them?