The Brand New Respectful Presidential Campaign Thread
Comments
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Anneshirley,
Your posting about Jewish people and slaves fates was rather moving. My great-grandmother was killed by Nazis back in Russia along with some other realtives. And the kindertransport story is heartbreaking and certainly puts the blame at US feet. BUT since then US became a strong ally for Israel and so we do not look into past but into the future.
Even if we had a huge monument dedicated to the slaves who died horrible deaths and did not even have a burial, it would not solve today problems in African American community. And here lies the problem. The anger and finger pointing takes you so far, one needs to move forward or be forever stuck in the past. Jews who came to USA after World War II with most of their families killed and horrible memories haunting them moved on. Not all of them of course, some of them could not overcome the anger and sadness. But majority moved on creating a better life of themselves and their children. As they say "Living well is the best revenge".
Nobody denies shameful past, but one cannot deny the progess. After all we have an African American running for the president and getting votes. This is the best prrof we can offer today, this would have been possible just a decade ago.
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Shirley,
Yes, there is a war going on. And just yesterday we were told that 40% of the equipment the soldiers are using is worn out and needs to be replaced. In addition, Bush has added the economy as a reason to continue the war. Huh? The economy is bad with the war on, so keeping the war going keeps the economy going. Someone can't do the math!
We whites don't need forgiveness. That's not what this is about. It is about inequality. it is about differences in educational opportunities, housing opportunities, rental opportunities, loan and on and on and on. Even the justice system is leaning to one side. Look at the sentences given by race--the white guys got it easy! And did you know that most serial killers are white? yet we give the white criminals breaks time after time. Probation, community service, released on RO. Not the black guy, the Latino, the Native American. Our prisons are far more full of men of color than white men. And just compare the percentage of white men in this country to other groups. Given the stats they should be th largest group in the prison. Last time I looked, black men made up at least 50% of the prison population, but they comprise less than 15% of the general population. Mmmm....something is wrong here. There is not equal justice. It's not a question of asking forgiveness, it's asking the question: what can I do to make this change? All of us need to come together and face race squarely on. It may be one of the most difficult issues to discuss, but nothing will change if we aren't totally honest.
I don't believe we should have to listen to issues about race told to us by an angry person like Rev. Wright. That won't get us anywhere. But I also believe that Rev. Wright has the right to speak as he wishes from the pulpit.
What I find unnecessary and distasteful is the media's glomming on to this issue and sensationalizing it. It is not Rev. Wright who put the sound bites on the web, so it is broadcast world-wide. It is the media continuing the discussion far beyond its value and continuing to low-ball candidates left and right. I'm sure the media will jump on something Clinton did soon. After all, aren't they now pouring over the recently released documents from the 1990s? It sickens me that we can't have a positive presidential campaign, and makes me angry at the media's scurrilous search for any small thing they can blow up into a big tado. All this big hoopla over Obama and his minister. I still say that if it was the white candidate it wouldn't even have been looked at.
I think we as the general public have the right to know who started this whole thing. Where did it come from? That will tell a lot. -
Inna,
don't place the problems in the African American community. It is a problem for this whole country. Every citizen needs to become involved in the discussion. Of course, you are right, a monument won't fix things. We are beyond monuments. We need to look at how race plays out in this country. It isn't one community's problem. It is the community of the US's problem.
And speaking of heartbreak, how about the slave children that were ripped from their mothers' arms and sold at auction. Often they were taken to another state, and never saw a family member again.
It just goes to show how all these stories demonstrate how mean people can be to each other. The treatment of the Russian Jews was horrible. I worked with a woman whose parents came to the US from Russia as Jewish immigrants. Their trials to get here were so awful her mother would never speak of them. -
Garce,
You are so fast
, I was just editing my previous posting when I saw yours. Again I agree with you that the past was horrible for Jews and slaves, this is not the competition here who got the most horrible past. Tell me how can we help African AMerican community to decrease a number of single mothers households? How do we get parents to pay attention to their kids education ? Throwing momey at the problem will not help. I heard a number of stories where brand new schools were built in African American communiteis and computers brought in. They were vandalized , computers stoeln and walls covered in graffitti. What can we do to prevent it.
I don't beleive in the village concept as I said before. I beleive in the FAMILY. The FAMILY is what helps all these immigrants that come here to build a better life and make sure that their children will achieve even more
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What do you guys think about the breech in security at the passport office and Obama's visa being looked up 3 times by nonauthorized people? When I first heard I thought it was probably not a big deal,someone was curious. Then as I got more information, I have to say I hope it was incompetence rather than political gamesmanship. It's interesting that the same thing happened when Bill Clinton was running against the first Bush and that in a rare show of unity, the Clinton campaign is appalled at what happened. My mind did quickly go to watergate, but I really hope this isn't at play.
Not sure where Anne-Shirley got the idea this was an Obama4President thread, I guess she mixed up my name.
Inna, I agree there doesn't need to be a contest between who had it worse. Ideally, I think that the family is the most important factor in raising children. I worked with a lot of low income kids when I was a therapy, mostly white. In my opinion,children shouldn't be punished because they happened to be born into a family that's less capable of giving the advantages of those born into more fortunate situations. It's easy to look from the outside and say what should be done, but harder when examining the whys and hows these families are in the situation to begin with. The children born into stable,1 or 2 parents families, who's parents were able to participate in their therapy did substantially better than those who did not. That's probably common sense, but to look into the eyes of a little kid who's in the latter group is heart breaking. Sometimes the parents are too mentally ill, have too many external pressures and/or don't have the education or skills to even sit down to help their kids with homework, let alone work with them on their therapeutic issues. It's hard for parents to selfactualize when they are worried about their very basic needs like food, shelter, housing, health care etc. Even if this is sometimes the parent's own fault, the child shouldn't have to suffer. Some people are inherently better and picking themselves up by the boot straps than others. Somebody donated a lot of books to me and I brought them in to the class of one of my clients for the kids to take home and own. The children's eyes lit up and they were so excited- most had never owned a book before, in first grade. It was a class for kids who were slower than the typical students, not because of lack of intelligent but because they had no early learning. I've had moms tell me that Sesame Street was the same as going to (free) preschool. I could tell you stories. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that I believe we as a society it's in our present and future interest to try to reach out when parents are unable or even unwilling to be the family influence the child needs.
As a society, I think we have a vested interest in seeing children succeed, to keep them out of the legal system, to ensure they grow up to be productive members of society whether that be because of parental support or inspite of the lack of support.
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Hi Amy,
I actually agree with most of your posting. I do feel sorry for kids who don't get the same support at home as others more fotunate ones. But what can we do about it ? I remember Newt Gingirch came out with a concept of "children home", where they would take kids out of abusive or unstable families out and put them in this home and feed and educate them. He was almost "stoned to death" ( not literally of course) for this.
You say as a society we have a responsibility to help the kids . But
how can we do it ? We had welfare but that did not help much.
I would like to hear a 10 step plan on changing this situation.
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If somebody took kids out of "unstable" homes, there probably wouldn't be enough places to house them all. Neglect rarely gets investigated when reported, because the system is so overtaxed-- caseworkers,even the best of them, cannot keep up with even the most live threatening abusive situations that they have to triage and unstable isn't even on their radar. I could tell you stories of cases that I reported that were "unsubstantiated" because there were no visible bruises or no "proof" even if the gut feelings were there. We live in such a litigious society,all the Ts have to be crossed and the Is dotted to get a child removed from home-- let alone to terminate parental rights, although TPR is getting better. I'm not sure having kids raised in orphanages or group homes is the answer, because children do need that primary attachment figure in order to develop socially and emotionally.
In some cases of abusive but not life threatening abuse families are provided in home parenting support, but the parent(s) have to be willing and able to participate and there are not usually consequences for noncompliance.
I think that child development and child care/parenting should be taught at the high school level as a mandatory part of education, they have teen parenting classes for the kids who get pregnant, but at that point the pregnant girls have so much on their minds it's a little too late. Parenting classes might just prevent pregnancy by taking the romance out of having a baby if boys and girls learned just how many things need to be in place to raise a child and how much work it is. I can't even tell you how many of my clients spent hours in front of the tv or playing video games before the age of 5-- which is really, really bad for developing brains. particularly kids with ADHD-- you'd be surprised how many parents don't realize this or do it anyway because it's easier than supervising their kids. To be fair, there were a number of kids that were so challenging I was happy to give them back at the end of the 50 minute hour and I couldn't imagine how their parents did it 24/7, especially single parents.
Another reason that I subscribe to the "village" school of thought is that not all parents have extended family, which makes raising kids easier.Children learn from generational interaction. The more people children have to love them, the more secure and healthy they'll likely be. Unless we're in a Utopian society, some families will do that better than others-- some kids will have wonderful childhood experiences and support, some passable, and some poor.
By "village" I certainly don't mean a village full of government paid for agencies, but people and organizations within communities like churches, the Police Athletic Leage (PAL) etc. In more depressed areas, I think that after school programs, subsidized in part by the government, might be helpful rather than having latch key kids or kids hanging out on the streets getting in trouble. I believe, but have no data to back this up, that the dollars spent for after school and summer community programs for low income parents is probably money well invested if it keeps kids doing their homework, reading so they don't lose skills over the summer, and getting into mischief/crime.
I'm probably not answering properly because there are just so many, complicated and different factors. A 10 pt plan would be great-- if there was enough commonality to the reasons this was happening.
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Inna,
I cannot tell you "how to help African American community." I am not saying we have to first spend money. It is a myth and a stereotypical remark to make that the problem in African American communities is the single parent, as well as assume that these women and or men don't care about their children's education.
I cannot answer your comment about the schools that were vandalized in an African American community. But I read the papers every day. And in middle class to upper middle class predominately white communities, there is vandalism to schools and graffiti written on walls and the sides of businesses. We had three "lovely" young white teenagers, who without a thought went onto the high school campus at night and burned down the library. I say this because I don't want to have us generalize about crime and education and single parents in relation to a particular group of people, especially the African American communities in this country.
And there are many communities in this country that have white single parents raising their children. No one seems to apply the same generalizations to these parents as they do to African American parents. Whatever we generalize about, we can find examples of these in every culture in every community in this country. These generalizations are not indigenous to the African American communities.
I will say this that before we can help anyone else in any way shape or form, we need to educate ourselves about other cultures and ethnic groups in this country. We need to read, listen, and go to lectures that will teach us about African Americans, Latinos, Native Americans, etc..... We need to learn about their history, their stories and their experiences without judgment and without saying they are not true as they are not my experiences. This is the first step in beginning to understand race and how it has been socially constructed in this country.
And I totally disagree with you about it being the sole responsibility of the FAMILY. The family you talk about may have existed earlier in the history of this country. Even the families that came from Europe and Russia and other Eastern European countries moved into communities within their city--like those in New York and Boston--and it was the members of the community who watched out for each others' children as they were growing up. They supported and helped each other to prosper in this country.
Today, we have different kinds of families. We have different kinds of communities. We live in a society and economical environment that prevents many moms from staying home and raising their children. We have parents who work 2 and 3 jobs to just pay the rent and put food on the table. We have grandparents on Social Security raising their grandchildren. We have single parents who have no relatives nearby to help them with their children while they work. If we do have a parent nearby, chances are that parent is also working and unavailable to help. The extended family today is rare. We need to "adopt," so to speak, the wonderful cultural trait of the community working together to help each other and support each other that permeates Latino, Native American, African American and others. We need to adopt the village concept, because until we do we exist in a meritocracy, not a democracy. We raise all up to raise ourselves up, and believe me, in the process our lives become richer. Our friendships expand to include people from all walks of life. I am blessed to have worked in an environment where women of color told me their stories. We listened to each other and we validated each others' experiences. We will forever be sisters, and if I need them, I can call on them any time for anything. And I am there to do the same for them.
I would urge you to go to the library and begin reading about others' cultures. Read the stories of women of color who came to this country, whether free or not, and not only will you be learning about others, I think you will enjoy your time spent reading. Their stories are rich with their history and beautifully told.
That is what we all can do to start the desparately needed discussion in this country of race. Even David Gergen, former Clinton advisor has stated exactly what I have said here. That it is time and we need to have that discussion. He agrees that it will be hard, and some will resist. But the time has come. -
Grace,your point about different kinds of families is a good one.
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First of all we can try and help people all we want but not until a person is taught that first they must help themselves they will become dependent on being helped..........it's just like raising children............when you are trying to help teach a baby to sleep if every time you lay your baby in the crib to sleep and second that child begins to whimper and you come running that child will never learn to go to sleep on its own.........if you lay that baby in the crib and let the child whimper it will teach itself how to go to sleep.......when a toddler falls down let him pick himself up..........ever know an adult thirty years old living at home with his parents not working and expecting his mom to clean and provide for him? That is a child that has never learned how to care for himself.............when both my girls were small I taught them from the very beginning I would not be doing their homework.......I will not type their papers.......I will not do their projects...........both can clean and wash their own clothes and I also have made clear that once they are adults they are responsible for themselves........Shokk
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First let me say I'm Canadian, but feel like this election is a World election, as it will affect so many Countries. I would vote for Obama, I really think he will do so much for the US. My sister would vote for Hilary we had to agree to disagree about this yesterday. My sis thinks Obama needs more time in office to be a better President and thinks he should be VP. The worst thing for me is that why oh why does this election have to have a women and and African American in it. But my hopes go to Obama, I think my sis isn't going for him because of the Ophra connection. I think people would have voted for him without that connection because he is such a vibrant, honest man. My respect grows for him daily and I will be so upset if he doesn't win. I like Hilary but just plain like Obama better. I admired his honesty during his speech last week about people actually talking about their feelings about race openly. And I hated that the media was trying to slam him over his remarks about his grandmother. My family history is Jewish and most of my relatives were killled by Hitler. The ones that made it out are in Isreal my mother came to Canada. Its different in the States I'm not saying we don't have racist problems in Canada we do it's just not as apparent. Except for the Natives of Canada. There is so much prejudice against them here, when I lived in the North (my heart is still there) I had many close friends that were Native, I have always judged a person by the person they are not the nationality or race. I lived in Brookfield just outside of Chicago for awhile and loved it there but was truly surprised by the racism I saw. I volunteered for a great second hand store in Brookfield and the women that worked there were often afraid to even start a conversation with an African American, and there was Pearl, talking up a storm to anyone anytime and the women were always shocked that I never seemed to hesitate to help any race. I met and made some wonderful casual friendships with alot of African American women while living there. I really wish everyone could look with fresh eyes and hearts and the playing field in the States becomes truly equal. Pearl
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I honestly believe one of the reasons it is hard to talk about race/racial relations is that it seems that no matter what you say if you are not "politically correct" you get slammed by both sides. It is difficult to know what is politcally correct anymore because both sides have their slangs and for one it is OK but for the other it isn't and vice versa. It all puts you in the position of just saying f*** it, let someone else figure it all out and go about the way you know best. Of course that leaves you wide open as well!
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Hi snowyday,
I am Jewish like you are. I am just curious to see how you feel about revelations that Obama's spiritual advisor of 20 years Wright is pro-Farrakhan (he gave him a special acheivement award) and anti-Israel?
I know a number of Jews who were very much pro-Obama and who are changing their view due to the last week revelations.
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Look at McCain's stats, he's leading both candidates. Their constant bickering, and doing a job on each other that McCain should be doing, is showing. Yes, I'll write the obit for the democratic party if this keeps up for 4 more months. Unbelievable.
Thu Mar 20, 10:11 AM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton has moved into a significant lead over Barack Obama among Democratic voters, according to a new Gallup poll.
The March 14-18 national survey of 1,209 Democratic and Democratic-leaning voters gave Clinton, a New York senator, a 49 percent to 42 percent edge over Obama, an Illinois senator. The poll has an error margin of 3 percentage points.
The poll was a snapshot of current popular feeling, but Clinton trails Obama in the state-by-state contest which began in January to select a nominee to face presumptive Republican nominee John McCain in the November election to succeed President George W. Bush.
The nominees are formally chosen by delegates at the parties' conventions in the summer.
Gallup said the poll lead was the first statistically significant one for Clinton since a tracking poll conducted February 7-9, just after the Super Tuesday primaries. The two candidates had largely been locked in a statistical tie since then, with Obama last holding a lead over Clinton in a March 11-13 poll.
Gallup said polling data also showed McCain leading Obama 47 percent to 43 percent in 4,367 registered voters' preferences for the general election. The general election survey has an error margin of 2 percentage points.
The Arizona senator also edged Clinton 48 percent to 45 percent but Gallup said the lead was not statistically significant.
(Reporting by David Morgan, editing by Vicki Allen)
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My family is also Jewish,although I am atheist. None of my family or friends who are Jews are changing their minds about Obama, because they understand the context in which the remarks are given.
Dennis Hof, owner of Nevada's Moonlight Bunny Ranch-- a brothel endorsed Hillary Clinton-- but that doesn't mean that Hillary endorses pimps or believes that prostitution should be legalized. I haven't even heard any speculation that is the case-- because it's ludicrious. BTW, the Bunny Ranch was on a 20/20 special on prostitution last night.
I think if we keep making assumptions about what a candidate believes based on what someone who supports them believes, then none of the issues really matter, it'll be who is less beat up in the end.
You may have a point Paulette. I remember in the early 90s when cultural diversity was the buzz word and organizations in my area were trying to become more culturally sensitive. That in itself is a good thing, but I know of a lot of agencies that were worse off after this diversity training. Feelings were hurt and the differences were widened, not lessened. Maybe a better approach would have been, not through something educational, but through recreation. Every 4 years I am amazed at the Olympic spirit among the countries and how even athletes of countries who are at war respect each other (forgetting about entebbe and the boycotted olympics). I'm a baseball and football fan, and most fans I know are thrilled when their teams and players do well, regardless of the race of the player. I don't think most people care the race, religion or nationality of singers and groups they enjoy.
Remember We are the World, Hands Across America, Farm Aid, Band Aid etc from the 80s? I love what Obama says about bringing people together, because we have more alike than what's different. I see unity as a process, just like equality. Obama says that change doesn't start from the top down, but from the bottom up when speaking about grass roots organizations.
Totally off topic-- but did anyone see the HBO movie Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee? It's an account of the devistation on native american culture as America expanded westward. Even though it's not a documentary, it really shows the pain of the situation from a few characters' perspectives. It's based on a book by Dee Brown, probably fictionalized some for tv-- but very powerful.
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JMO, but I worry about the wisdom of Obama's Iraq withdrawal policy. Committing to get the troops out within a very short, defined time period seems to me to be foolhardy.
JMO, but I question Obama's honesty about his healthcare program. He claims that his plan will deliver universal healthcare but it won't (and there's no way that he doesn't know this).
JMO, but I question his honesty too about NAFTA, where he says one thing but his aides say another (off the record). Similarly, I question his honesty about his Iraq policy, where again he says one thing but his aides say another (I think that was supposed to be off the record too).
JMO, but I find it to be disingenuous when Obama (or his campaign) complains to the media any time he gets a whiff of "race" (real or perceived) from any other candidate (or their supporters) but then lays claim to being the one and only candidate who can discuss and address the very important issue of race in America.
JMO, but I get frustrated by Obama's claims to be a different type of politician, when in fact behind the scenes he and his campaign have been slinging the dirt at least as much, if not more, than any other candidate.
But, all that aside, to inna's point, because I am Jewish (though non-practicing) and I believe in the necessity of the Israeli state, what frightens me most about Obama are his advisors and those with whom he keeps company. While we each must be judged on our own merits, we are known by the company we keep. There is the fact that Obama's church recently gave Louis Farrakhan (a known anti-semite) a lifetime achievement award. There is the fact that his pastor (his "spiritual advisor" and "role model") travelled with Farrakhan to Libya to meet with Qaddafi. There is the fact that so many of Obama's closest advisors & supporters have strong anti-Israeli positions. Samantha Power (who thankfully had step down as an advisor due to a verbal gaff), Robert Malley, Zbigniew Brzezinski, George Soros.... I accept that not everyone on a politican's team is there to comment on or influence foreign policy, and I understand the value in having advisors with different points of view. But Obama's list of anti-Israel friends, advisors and supporters is just too long to ignore. And the voices of concern are getting louder.
JMO, but in the end I am sad that so many people seem to be so taken by (blinded by?) the newness and excitement of Obama, that it's caused them to gloss over what might otherwise be seen as being serious issues or at least, major red flags, and it's caused them to forget, at least temporarily, about the value and importance of experience.
Yes, I'm a Clinton supporter. But I honestly wanted to like and even more importantly, trust Obama. But I just can't do it.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1204546409802
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Bessie--The first article is not linking properly--Do you have a better way of accessing it?
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Odd. I just went to the article again and came up with the exact same url:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1204546409802
If it still does work, try googling Jerusalem Post Obama Advisers and it should be the first article that pops up on the list.
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I got to it through Google---thanks
Here is one more that that article refers to
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1203589810710
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Statements like these I find really troublesome.
Obama is on record as having called for an "even-handed approach" to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 2000, just as the Palestinians commenced the Second Intifada following Camp David. According to Electronic Intifada founder Ali Abunimah, Obama's pro-Israel epiphany occurred shortly before his 2004 U.S. Senate campaign—an about-face for which Obama apologized to Abunimah. "Hey, I'm sorry I haven't said more about Palestine right now, but we are in a tough primary race. I'm hoping when things calm down I can be more up front," Obama said at the time.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/trager/2123
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We all know Obama is a great speaker. But no one really knows what the heck he's for or not for. He says one thing, then says another.
When he said he never heard Wright say the offensive things he said while sitting in the pews..then in his speech he says, "Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes." Why did he lie about that? Wasn't that kind of stupid after sitting in this church for 20 years. And then trying to explain that he wasn't there ALL of the time..like when his daughter was born. C'mon! How ignorant does he think we are?
Seems like no one's going to change anyone's mind no matter what. We each have made up our minds.
Shirley
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I believe that candidates make all sorts of "I'm gonna" promises.
Many things they promise, they have absolutely no control over.
Many things they promise they will not keep.
Many things they promise they will do are based on "with what I know NOW" and those are the ones that will change within 2 hours after election and by the time they take office, because they will then be privy to information not available to them now.
That's why I don't listen to promises. I've not made up my mind. I'll see who runs, who they choose as possible cabinet members (if I even know anything about them) and who runs the least offensive campaign. That's anothe nice thing about being an independent.
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Iodine, well said.
I'm an independent too...and waiting for the fog to clear.
The downside to be a registered independent in PA is that I can participate in the primary.
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How ignorant does he thing we are?
Shirley, I'd like to remind you that this is the respectful presidential campaign thread. Comments such as yours have the potential to turn this conversation into ones like the other thread.
Beesie, I believe that Obama does have a universal health care program in that everyone who wants health care can get it, although he's not going to force any adults to buy it for themselves. We can agree to disagree on the parsing of words on that one.
I'm curious as to whether you think Hillary uses gender the way you believe Obama uses race. Sometimes I think that those of us who are passionate about our candidate will accept some things that our candidate says or does while criticizing similar things for the candidate we don't oppose.
I believe that Obama is a different kind of candidate and that a few rogue campaign workers saying objectional things (like the monster comment) aren't indicative of the overall way he is running his campaign. I belong to 5 or 6 obama groups and whenever someone says something that could be seen as mud slinging others are quick to call out that person and remind that this is a different kind of campaign. Obama cannot be responsible for everyone who is working and volunteering on his campaign any more than Hillary or McCain can be. I think most of us are guilty of jumping on what supporters say and aligning that with the candidate.
I believe that Obama has a sound Iraq withdrawal plan in that it's not so set in stone that he will adhere to it in the event that commanders on the ground say it is unwise. I don't think any of the presidential candidates is going to be wreckless with Iraq,and Obama constantly says we need to be as careful about getting out of Iraq as we were careless going in.
Just as you, Beesie, say people who are passionate about Obama are blinded many believe the same thing about Hillary. Many see her candidacy as a "now it's the turn for a woman" and buy into the negative talk from the Clinton machine. There are people who do not believe that a Clinton presidency would be a nightmare for the country. For me, I am concerned that she's fudged her 35 years of experience by overstating her involvement in things that went well in Bill's administration and distancing herself from the things that haven't gone well. I'm worried that people bought into that and are taking her years as first lady the same as a copresidency for all the positive things and none of the negative things. I'm worried about gays getting thrown under the bus the way they were in the first clinton presidency with DOMA and DADT and if Hillary was president she'd break her promises again to the gay community.
I'm worried that Hillary and Bill have done everything they can to insure McCain becomes president by her negative campaigning slams against Obama while praising McCain at the same time. I believe Hillary knows exactly what she's doing when she does this and it's part of her strategy.
I believe it is possible to keep this threat respectful.
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I voted for Obama in the primaries (but still felt bad I couldn't vote for Hillary...even said "I'm sorry, Hillary," as I got out of my car to vote). I think he will do for the country what Reagan did in the way of helping people to feel good about America again....people here and abroad. I also believe he will get us out of Iraq faster than Hillary. Overall, I like Hillary's health plan better because it would most likely cover 15 million more people...and if I were voting on just one issue, she would have gotten my vote for that. But there is no guarantee that either health plan would get passed. The fact that Obama is a constitutional scholar is another feather in his cap in my book.
All that being said, I'm so happy that this year I have been given the choice between two extremely qualified candidates and have to say, I'm completely satisified no matter who ultimately wins at the Democratic convention.
My husband is a STAUNCH Republican and a highly decorated Vietnam war veteran. (Bronze Star recipient...101st Airborne. I'm very proud of him for that.) He has never voted for a Democrat in his life, but this year he said his vote is going to the Democratic presidential candidate. So yay for our side on that one!
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Me (Shirley) said:
How ignorant does he think we are?
And Amy responded:
Shirley, I'd like to remind you that this is the respectful presidential campaign thread. Comments such as yours have the potential to turn this conversation into ones like the other thread.
What? You ARE kidding, right? You have the nerve to tell ME that I am scarier than a skinhead and now you are accusing ME of turning this thread into a disrespectful thread? What I posted prior to the quote that you quoted me was TRUE. How is that disrespectful? I knew the man was lying when he said he wasn't sitting in the pews when Wright said the anti-remarks that that he spewed.
I will no longer, Amy, engage in future discussions with you.
I agree with Dotti when she says not one of these presidential candidates can deliver on their promises. It's whole 'nother ball game when one sits in the Oval Office.
Shirley
I edited a misspelling in this post and my prior post, and to add a comment.
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"I'm curious as to whether you think Hillary uses gender the way you believe Obama uses race. Sometimes I think that those of us who are passionate about our candidate will accept some things that our candidate says or does while criticizing similar things for the candidate we don't oppose."
"Just as you, Beesie, say people who are passionate about Obama are blinded many believe the same thing about Hillary. Many see her candidacy as a "now it's the turn for a woman"..."
Amy, of course Clinton is using her gender. She would be stupid not to and I would be stupid (or blind) to think that she's not. I don't deny what is obvious. Neither Clinton nor Obama can change what they are, so why shouldn't Clinton get whatever benefit she can from being female, just as Obama is getting whatever benefit he can from being African American?
But in the end, for whom is it a net gain and for whom is it a net loss? That's the more important question. Okay, let's see:
- Exit polls have shown that of those who say that race was a factor in their vote, more voted for Obama than for Clinton. So that means that Obama is getting more votes for being African American, than Clinton is getting for being white (or for Obama being African American). Obama wins this round.
- Exit polls have shown that of those who say that gender was a factor in their vote, more voted for Obama than for Clinton. So that means that Obama is getting more votes for being male (or for Clinton being female) than Clinton is getting for being female. Obama wins this round.
- A Gallup poll from last year (before this ruckus began) showed that 11% of Americans would not vote for a woman for President under any circumstances, whereas 5% of Americans would not vote for a black man for President under any circumstances. http://www.gallup.com/poll/26857/Analysis-Impact-Personal-Characteristics-Candidate-Support.aspx Obama wins this round.
- Last, let's look at what Shirley Chisholm said. Yes, it's history, but it's significant history, since Shirley Chisholm was a highly respected politican who was both black and female. And she even ran for the presidency. Her words: "I've always met more discrimination being a woman than being black... When I ran for the Congress, when I ran for president, I met more discrimination as a woman than for being black. Men are men." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/03/obituaries/03chisholm.html?_r=1&oref=slogin Obama wins this round.
As for me, I support Clinton not because she is a woman but because I agree with more of her positions on critical issues. When I first started listening to the debates and researching the various candidates positions, I was actually surprised that I ended up being a Clinton supporter. But the more I heard from her, the more I saw her reasoned approach in the debates, the more I liked her. On the other hand, like so many others, I too was taken by the newness and freshness and spirit of Obama. But the more I heard from him, the more I saw him speak (but not say anything but words), the more I read about his positions, the less I liked him. For me, it all comes down who I think will be the best president based on the issues. That's my opinion. Since we all see the world differently and we each have different priorities, I fully understand when someone else strongly supports another candidate because of their position on the issues. What I don't understand are those who make their decision based on something other than the issues, or in some cases, in spite of a candidate's position on the issues. But that's just me.
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Shirley, it's disrespectful because the rules only apply to whomever is not on the same torn up crumpled page as PR and she is the only one who can call names and compare people to skin heads, etc....LOL! EVEN WHEN SHE TYPES IN CAPS IN THIS THREAD WHEN SHE IS DICTATING...(BY THE WAY, THAT'S HOLLERING IN COMPUTER LINGO!)Shirley you so ROCK!
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HA HA, PAULETTE! I KNOW THERE ARE DIFFERENT RULES FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE (ACTUALLY PERSON).
I LIKE A CANDIDATE TO BE AS HONEST AS HE POSSIBLY CAN! AND I CERTAINLY AM AWARE THAT CANDIDATES LIE! BUT SOME LIES ARE SO OBVIOUS.
Oops, didn't mean to yell.
And that's my imMATURE take on.....I call THAT fella disrespectful!
Shirley
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