Presidential debates on ABC right now-both parties

Oh please Rosemary,

Let me be clear. If Obama had the popular vote, and Clinton was made the nominee by the superdelegates, would it still be a failure?



Or is it simply that Clinton should be the nominee and not Obama?

I can't type right now because my nails are still tacky from polishing them (can't afford to have them done by a pro).

I look forward to coming back and reading more.

Kuddos (as far as I have read) Shokk.

Grace, I believe I read that you said the "right" has been "conditioned"......I have not read all of your posts YET.  Just wanted you to know that I have not been "conditioned" about African Americans and what struggles they have gone through.  The left has been conditioned to continue to carry on with the past instead of moving forward and stopping the rhetoric from people ("Ministers") who want to keep blacks in their place.  Hold them back!

One more thing.  People have to make choices.  Many of them or difficult choices.  I do believe parents of any color, race, ethnic group must teach their children.  We as white people cannot be held accountable for everything that is bad.  Parents need to instill in their children they can become anything they want.  That goes for white parents as well.

Just my unintellectual, "conditioned" thoughts. 

Well, in my opinion, I think they should commit whenever they want. If this goes to the convention and a decision has not been made by the demos (and it looks that way right now--then the demos are going to have a hard time beating McCain, no matter who the candidate is. Unless there's a bit tado closer to the election.



that's happened in the past, and changed who won the presidency.



Sorry, Rosemary, I did miss your later post. I apologize.

Shokk,

Not as successful as she is. She is in a place all by herself!



And whether we want to believ it or not, the glass ceiling has yet to be broken! Look at all the white newscast anchors on the main world news channels.



Actually, race was originally developed as a way to define who was white, and who would be in control. The idea of labels for different groups of people came first, so white could be defined. That is why earlier in history, a person of mixed race who had one drop of black blood in them was considered black (well, they used different names for them back then); Native American Indians needed to have 1/2 Native American blood in them to be considered Native American. That's because the government set up regulations about Native Americans. They could go to the reservation if they were native american. Their children were removed from the reservation and sent to special school where they were not allowed to speak their native language. To this day, many native americans are strugglingto relearn the language of their forefathers.



So what can we learn from this? Missionaries generally (and I'm not saying all do it so please don't attack me here) want to teach how they live to another group of people. It's exactly what some have asked on this thread--how do we help them to better their lives--and one way is not to behave like missionaries. People like Angelina Jolie are trying to help the people in other nations to live independently, to be able to have a lifestyle that fits with their cultural heritage.



I'm sorry that I haven't been able to explain what "white" means, but if you go back and read Peggy McIntosh's article that I posted here, she lists over 40 ways that we white women have privilege that we don't even have to earn. It's granted simply by the color of our skin!



Shirley,

I'm sorry. Perhaps I wasn't clear. It isn't a question of right or left. We are conditioned as children. Whatever our parents were taught we were taught. Unless we question why we are puzzled about certain responses to certain individuals who look different from us, we continue on as conditioned.



It isn't bad, and it doesn't make us bad people, it is just how we learned. And each of us brings to the table a different experience.



For example, my father was the biggest bigot you could ever imagine. He made Archie Bunker seem like an unprejudiced man! Well, growing up my father owned his own business--a janitoria service. Every week "Johnny" would come to the steps of our house (and I have no idea how he got there as there was no bus service out to where we lived in a nice middle class white neighborhood) to collect his pay for the week. He always called me miss grace, and would never set foot on the porch or come inside if I told him to and that I was going to get my mom. My mom was Mrs. Smith to him, and he was always johnny, not mr. surname, not mr. johnny. One day I asked my dad why that was, and he said because he was "c..........." and that's just the way it was. I realized that I was asking a question that he couldn't answer, because he had been conditioned that the way it was was alright.



So over the years, my father called groups of people different from him all kinds of names, and made generalized assumptions about them as a group. He only saw them as a group, but saw himself as an individual, not connected to any group. That is how many white people move through this life. That they are individuals who have achieved, and so can others.



Around 1972 I was married and working at a Cadillac dealership. There was an older black gentleman named Cecile who washed and polished the cars. When I learned he wasn't going to do anything for Thanksgiving that year, I invited him to my parents to join us. He accepted, and then I realized I hadn't really asked my parents if it was okay, and I was afraid my dad would be his "archie" self. Well, what happened is my dad had a great time talking with Cecile, and by the time the day was over he was invited back for Christmas by my dad! What i learned from that was that one-on-one my dad could talk and get to know the individual; but if he saw a group he fell back into his bigotry.



My dad was in the Navy during WWII so he was aware of the interrment camps that we sent our Japanese citizens to in the US. He always maintained that it was necessary. Then right before he died, he read an excerpt from a book about a Japanese man in the interment camps, and how this man lost everything he owned even though he was a citizen of the US. Dad brought the subject up one day, and told me that now he not only understands how horribly we treated some of our citizens, he told me he was proud of me for learning about others' experiences living in the US. There are many stories out there and many books, and research that has been done to bring to our consciousness the histories of some of our citizens in the US who might be very different from us.



And I agree with you Shirley. All parents should tell their children they can be whatever they want. It's just that some children have a head start!

Amy's post and my replies:

Shirley-- there is a difference between lying and being unaware or in denial. Do you really think the day the passed civil rights legistlation, equality magically happened and all the inequities equalled out and the playing field was level? The playing field still isn't level because as I told you, it takes generations.

No, Amy, it will not take generations unless YOU want it to and you keep stirring the pot.  And know, I do not believe civil rights happens overnight.  I'm not that stupid, Amy.

Do you think that perhaps the reason you are so angry when people challenge your biased thinking is because it hits close to home? Why would you take things so personally, particularly general statements that aren't even directed at you? A lot of times the statements that bother us most are those that hit a little too close to home. Nobody is saying you're a bad person, just that your statements about race show a lack of grasp over the complexities of race relations in America.

Amy, my thinking is no more biased than your thinking.  You make me angry by your remarks.  Nothing that you have said has hit close to my home.  Your drivel is getting old.  I understand those complexities, Amy.  We need to move forward.  Whites cannot fix all the wrong that has been done to blacks.  But they have to be held accountable for their actions just as whites. 

Grace,

I could not beleive your condescending comments toward successful African Americans.

"Powell and Rice had only the power granted to them by the white system in this country. Rice continues to hold her place in government because Bush allows it. "

Just so that you know Rice was a very successful and well respected provost in Stanford university. She came up through he system and achived what she did thank to herself and HER FAMILY that supported her and not some mythic village that you refer to.

And for you say that the only reason she is in the administration is because Bush  allows it is outrageous. She is there because she is a smart and capable woman who has a lot of offer and who just happens to be black. I can't beleive that you actually wrote this garbage, this is racist and uncalled for. We need to celebrate people who come up through the ranks because of their talent and hard work and not put them down for their skin color. You would not have said if she were white, would you ! Shame on you, you really crossed the line this time. 

Susie thanks for the update on Oprah.............it looks like the Rev Wright got cut off from her "money" and it ticked him off................Shokk

I hate to stir the pot, but I will say that one of my heroes in American History is Booker T. Washington. 

Jeez I miss Obama's speech...........they started late and I had a conference call..........going to have to listen later...if anyone has a printed or video feed could someone post it..........Amy first of all I don't believe that there are families being retained at Gitmo..........most of those men are extremely dangerous.........you don't know who is there or why..........I know you don't have respect for Bush but one thing for sure we have not been hit again since 9/11 and who ever is elected President in November better understand that we still are not safe.........Amy its because of your type of lifestyle and other liberties that we have here such as women having equal rights that the extreme Muslims hate us and want to destroy us.......there is a reason that they refer to Americans as the infidels............there is a reason that Muslim dads and brothers kill their daughters and sisters because they have become too "American"............Gitmo and what happen to the Japanese in WWII are two completely different things..........Shokk

Obama gave a very good speech, it was beautifully written and delivered. But it still failed to answer the question of why he stayed in that church knowing the Wright had some controversial issues that he disagreed with. His church gave Lou Ferrakan (sp?) a special award, he did not address this one either, but I am sure that the media will. It also brought the race card into play and I think this is the beginning of an end for him.

But he is an amazing speaker and a very intelligent guy.

Hello Everyone,

I promised myself I would not post here again, but I feel compelled to reply to a post . I will put this as respectfully as possible. This is America and everyone has the right to think, feel and say as they wish. I do not get involved in political debates because I believe everyones own personal situation dictates which party affiliation best suites their own needs. There is no right and wrong just what is right  or wrong for a particular person. That is my opinion. I was compelled to reply to a Lady who feels she is being made to feel accountable for what happened to Africans that were forced into slavery in this country back in the early 1600's and endured Jim Crow until the late 1960's and have endured and still endure racism today.

1. Africans were sold mainly by "warring tribes" and also stolen.There are many different countries, and tribes in Africa just like Europe has many different types of Europeans. If you are going to use historical facts get them correct.

2. Who called you , came to your house,accused you in your face of mistreating anyone? Did someone call you by name? Why do you take it personal? Is it a guilty conscious?

3. I hope no one accused you of having slaves, that is illegal in this country.

4. You do not look old enough to have been on the Supreme Court when "Jim Crow" laws were made legal. So. you are off the hook for the back of the bus thing.

5. Please tell the next person who accuses you personally of abusing,assaulting of murdering a black person that you have access to a great attorney and will sue them for slander.

6. Would you be so comfortable to tell Jewish persons to forget the Holocaust? To leave it alone? That is in the past...Just wondering?

7. Anyone can be a racist and it is wrong no matter who is saying the inflammatory statements.

7. People of African descent are not ignorant or children . We can think for our selves. We can rightly divide the word of truth. We do not need anyone to sensor what we hear so we do not get confused.

8. Women off all races, creeds and colors have children out of wedlock,especially with divorce on the rise , it is more common for a woman to have children with different fathers.

9. Just the way you write "Obama" says a thousand words...you are crystal clear...I see right through you.

10. I find your statements  very offensive and condescending.

That is my opinion .You have the right to write and think as you please and I respect that . Being an American , I am entitled to say it offends me. 

By the way....we do love, teach, nurture, care for , raise, adore, coddle, cuddle our children.

I, personally,  would never suggest that any race of women did not do the same for theirs. That would be arrogant.

Benita        

Great post Betina- you rock.

I think Obama did a great job with his speech. He's obviously bright, well thought and sophisticated enough to be able to discern that one doesn't need to agree with all of the views. It's clear to me that Obama sees Wright as a surrogate father, since he never knew his own father and only had a step father for a little while. I understand how you can love a person and not like everything about that person or agree with everything about that person.  I would like anyone who thinks that Wright was all about hate to give me the dates and times you were in his church to hear those things and the entire content of the sermons,because you cannot judge a person by a sound bite or even one sermon.

Obama's speech was brave and honest and rang true on so many levels. I had chills during parts of it-- he could have easily taken the political way and done an interview with a friendly reporter-- heck he's been talking to reports about nonstop since last week that I hear Elliot Spitzer sent Wright a fruit basket to thank him for getting Spitzer off the front pages . It's time to move on from this-- I hope people are open minded enough to hear his words, but I suspect those that are stuck in their ways of feeling victimized by being in the powerful majority will respond with cynicism.

I wasn't able to go to the speech because it was by invitation only,but I did hear it in it's entirity-- does that count as a snippet. BTW Obama gave his speech at the Philadelphia Constitution Center, not a church.

Do you know anything about Wright's 30 years of charity work and as leader of his church what he has done for the chicago community?  Here's a partial list of what he's spearheaded since growing the church from 87 members to over 6000.

Anyone who knows me knows that I'm an atheist and no fan of organized religion, but I refuse to believe the sum of a person can be known in a sound bite. People are not one dimensional, even if some of the responses on this thread seem that way.

http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2008/03/senator-obama-dont-disown-reverend.html

ACTIVE SENIORS AND FRIENDS - are members and friends who are 55 years of age and older. They meet regularly for Bible study and fellowship. They participate in quarterly outings for inspiration and recreation, and provide ongoing care and keeping of other seniors.

ADOPT-A-STUDENT MINISTRY - is focused on trying to retain college students who have gone away from home and are studying at universities and colleges out of the city and state. Importantly, this ministry assures our college students that they: 1) belong to God, and 2) have a church home that cares about them.

AFRICA MINISTRY - promotes, educates and advocates issues concerning Africans in Africa and the Diaspora. Opportunities shall be provided for education, travel, fellowship, economic development, missionary work, financial support, and health education.

ATHLETES FOR CHRIST - welcomes young men and women to build their physical strengths through participation in Christian sport activities.

CAN-CER-VIVE - supports members and friends who are survivors, and/or are presently overcoming and/or encountering the many faces of cancer. The ministry plans and conducts seminars/workshops designed to explore and inform its members about matters of diet, grooming, spiritual support, care-giving/receiving and recreational activities.

CAREER DEVELOPMENT - provides information, training and job fairs to enable unemployed and underemployed members to compete and upgrade their employability for jobs with employers seeking "good" employees.

CARIBBEAN CONNECTION - This ministry is our Afrocentric congregation's attempt to educate our North American members about the many aspects of the Caribbean culture. These aspects include the cuisine, the peoples, the countries, the customs, and the religion of our Lord as practiced in the various Caribbean places.

CHURCH IN SOCIETY - (CIS) - continually seeks ways and opportunities to educate, inform and empower the congregation and community to understand, identify and to be effective advocates for social justice policies that better our lives and our world.

CHURCH SCHOOL - meets Saturday mornings and provides Bible instructions in classes for pre-school through adults.

COMMITTEE FOR CHURCH IN SOCIETY (CIS) - works to establish Christian principles in the economic, social and political aspects of our church and community life.

COUNSELING MINISTRY -Masters Degree Holders in counseling or related professions, enable Church members to receive private, Christian counseling in matters of individual, family, group and/or grief crises.

DANCE MINISTRY - includes children, youth, men and women who are taught the principles of modern dance, ballet, and interpretive dance. They are also taught the African roots of dance in worship and the biblical basis for praising God with dance!

Children's Dance - 7-9 years old
Pre Teen Dance - 10-12 years old
High School Dance - 13-18 years old
Adult Dance - Adult Men & Women
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ADVOCACY/CARE MINISTRY - provides Christian support, love and comfort to persons involved in emotional and physically abusive relationships, with husbands/wives, boyfriends/girlfriends or family members.

DRAMA MINISTRY - nurtures the innate abilities of expression present in all of our children and youth as they learn to communicate on the stage to the world.

DRILL TEAM - promotes an understanding of scripture, encourages academic excellence, heightens cultural awareness, fosters self-discipline and develops self-esteem.

Youth Drill Team - 13-18 years old
Women's Drill Team - adult women
Men's Drill Team - adult men
DRUG & ALCOHOL RECOVERY MINISTRY - meets each week with recovering members, their families and friends. Members Member's are encouraged to participate in Christian support groups which acknowledge that only "if the Son (of God) shall set you free, you shall be free, indeed."

EMMAUS ROAD MINISTRY - provides companions, prayer partners, helpers and friends for grieving persons, months after the passing of a loved one. Ongoing contact with the family is maintained.

FINE ARTS & LITERARY GUILD - informs the church family about artistic and cultural events focusing on African and African American heritage.

FOOD SHARE MINISTRY - provides fresh and canned food baskets on a monthly basis for the Hungry, the Homeless, and the Less Fortunate.

GIRL SCOUTS - involve young girls 9 - 17 years of age in the experience of scouting within our Afrocentric Christian environment.

GREETERS MINISTRY - welcome visitors and members to worship and special services.

HEALING MINISTRY - offers the laying on of hands to all who request prayer for healing of spirit, soul or body.

HEALTH ADVISORY MINISTRY [HAB] - is dedicated to the prevention and treatment of physical and mental illnesses. HAB strives to inform and educate our members and community about "cutting edge" health issues.

HIGH SCHOOL COUNSELING - supports high school students to enhance their educational progress.

HIV/AIDS MINISTRY - offers comfort through support, education, and training for individuals, families and friends impacted by HIV and AIDS. Training Required.

HOSPITALITY MINISTRY - hosts family repasts, in-house ministry receptions and rolls out the "red carpet", for visitors gathered within our gates.

HOUSING MINISTRY - sponsors seminars to inform the church and community families about tax sales, "how to..." avoid foreclosure; purchase HUD homes; finance mortgages; etc.

INTERNAL SECURITY MINISTRY - provide security for the pastoral staff, members and V.I.P.'s. Additionally, the ministry assists ministries with securing funds when necessary and when offerings are received. Training Required.

INTONJANE - Swahili for "Coming into Womanhood" is a formal Rites of Passage program for young women, ages 8-18 years old. The program involves each participant in inspiring Christian, cultural and social awareness exercises.

ISUTHU - Swahili for "Coming into Manhood" is a formal Rites of Passage program for young men, ages 8-18 years old. The program involves each participant in inspiring Christian, cultural and social awareness exercises.

INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY MINISTRY - Information Technology Ministry (IT Ministry) provides Information and Technology related services to the church community.

KUJICHAGULIA - The 2nd principle of the Nguzo Saba, meaning "Self-Determination;" provides resources, networking and hands-on assistance to persons who are physically, mentally, and/or emotionally challenged.

LEGAL COUNSELING - The Legal Counseling Ministry nurtures the spiritual growth and development of Christian attorneys and other legal professionals, and provides legal assistance to the Trinity community.
MARRIED COUPLES - provide Christian context and insights for couples who are committed to building and maintaining Christian homes.

MATH TUTORIAL - involves elementary age youth in the rigorous discipline needed to increase their understanding of mathematical concepts.

MEDIA MINISTRY - provides services related to the audio, visual, print, photography and telecommunications. Subcommittees included in this ministry are:

Audio Recording
Audio Sound
Photography
Publications
Tape Sales & Duplication
Video Recording & Lights
MEN'S CELL GROUPS - provides a "safe place" for our brothers to "be themselves", sharing their joys and fears, defeats and victories, breaking down the age-old stereotype that says, "Men can't/don't pray."

MEN'S FELLOWSHIP - follow the traditional model of men in the church who are concerned about healthy and wholesome living with Christ at the center of their pilgrimage.

MILLION FOR THE MASTER - implements programs and services that promote the spiritual, economic, social and political viability of the African American community, focusing on bringing the church into the community and bringing the community into the church.

MINISTRY SERVICES - the mission of the Ministry Services Department is to serve the congregation, staff and Pastor in a responsive manner. To create partnerships between ministries and staff that fulfills the overall mission of the Pastor, Executive Minister and Church.

MUSIC MINISTRIES - God has richly blessed us to have a staff of professionally trained, Christian musicians who devotedly teach choir members to make an offering of their voices. Trinity's Music Department is made up of six choirs:

Imani Ya Watume - Swahili meaning "Messengers of Faith" (high school choir)
Little Warriors for Christ - age six years old through 8th grade.
Men's Chorus - over 90 participants (adult men)
Sanctuary Choir - over 200 participants (adult men and adult women)
Women's Chorus - over 200 participants (adult women)
Walaika - 3 to 5 year olds
NEWNESS OF LIFE -encourages new member candidates to begin their journey by providing informational and inspirational materials.

PRISON MINISTRY - visits the prisons every week of the year! To provide tutorial support and to engage the inmates in rap sessions and training programs.

PROJECT JEREMIAH - provides Christian role models and mentors for the boys and girls in elementary schools each week.

READING TUTORIAL - provides educational experiences through tutoring in reading for elementary school students.

SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS MINISTRY - provides interpreting and transliterating service so that hearing impaired people can become full participants in the shared worship experience, Bible study and other activities.

SINGLES COMMUNITY MINISTRY - addresses unique issues facing single Christian adults.

Never Married
Divorced
Widowed
Single Parent
Same Gender Loving
Upcoming Events
SISTERHOOD - provides an atmosphere where adult women build trust and explore ways to renew their strength for facing and resolving difficulties.

STEWARDSHIP COUNCIL - oversees the New Member orientation, administers the benevolence budget of the church, and assists with the financial needs of members who are enrolled in accredited seminaries.

Tangeni Adult Dance Ministry

Ministry Purpose/Objectives
The purpose of this ministry shall be to praise God in dance. In keeping with the church's motto of being "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian," we recognize that praise and worship in dance is both an expression of our heritage and an acknowledgement of our faith. Tangeni, as led by the spirit, shall provide fellowship and nurturing to its members through devotion during rehearsals, seminars, retreats and other related activities. Tangeni provides an opportunity for its members to enhance and use their spiritual gifts in order that we may minister unto the church universal and the community at large
TAPE VISITATION MINISTRY - enhances the overall ministry of sick visitation by personally carrying services of worship (audio cassettes) to members and extended family who are hospitalized, shut-in at home and/or extended care facilities.

TRINITY COMPUTER LEARNING CENTER
Trinity Computer Learning Center (TCLC) is a faith-based training facility for Trinity United Church of Christ and the community at large using computer technology to help cross the digital divide.

USHER BOARD - are the doorkeepers in the house of the Lord. Include are:

Youth - 8-12 years old
Young Adult - 13-18 years old
Adult - Men and Women
VILLAGE KEEPERS - ensure that members are safely escorted to and from their cars and in between the 532, 421 and 400 buildings. They provide a presence of protection and security.

WOMEN'S GUILD - is the volunteer corps for the residents of the two Trinity sponsored senior residences.

YOGA MINISTRY - helps participants maintain physical, mental and spiritual fitness.

YOUNG ADULT MINISTRY - nurtures Christians between the ages of 18 and 35 by addressing issues and concerns of young African American Christian adults; and provides a bridge over which teenagers transition into adulthood.

YOUNG WOMEN'S CHRISTIAN WALK - provides character development from a Christian perspective. Activities are supportive of and sensitive to developing cultural and spiritual awareness.

YOUTH CHURCH MINISTRY PARTNERS - are committed to teaching children ages 3-10 years of age about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Through the use of Christian Education materials, music, prayers, and crafts, your child can participate in an atmosphere that is designed to teach them all the elements of worship. 3-year olds must be potty-trained and not wearing pull-ups. Space is limited to a first-come first-served basis at the 7:30 am and 11:00 am services. The space is also limited by the capacity of the classrooms for your child's particular age group.

Amy all large churches have these kind of services for their members and even for people in their communities that aren't members of their church............and smaller churches still have out reach programs for their communities............I really do understand that their is "black gospel" preaching........have been around it for most of my life.......have known about it.......there are degrees of it.........Rev Wright snuggling up to Farrakhan and other types of American haters because that is what they are is a bit unsettling........Amy you can try and smooth it over but it is what it is..........and I do understand that most churches are a business and you "preach" to your masses but that is what is disturbing about Obama...........his wife seems to buy into more of this stuff but I'm not so sure Obama is going to get his wish and the media stop running sound bites of his Rev. and mentor........Shokk