Presidential debates on ABC right now-both parties

Amy says and I say, I'm sorry, Amy, that I cannot read your entire post before responding.  Please forgive me. 

"Shirley, Grace and I do not agree with everything, if you've been following this thread. I appreciate her multidimensional, educated look at issues even when we disagree."

Well, geez, I'll just step away because you have enjoyed these "multidimensional, educated" issues.  I only graduated from high school.  Oh, I'm so ashamed.

I have enough sense AND education, whether it be self education or high school, to UNDERSTAND the sufferings of the black community.  I don't need a lesson, Amy.

I will say this over and over again...keep on spewing hate about white to the African Americans and some will finally come to believe that we are infecting THEIR populations with HIV, and selling drugs to their population so we can trap them and throw them him jail.  And make sure you watch your congregation jump around and side with you.  AMY, do you REALLY think this is good to preach or teach?  Puullleeesee.  Use a bit of psychology, would'ja!

Shirley

Oh, I forgot--the name of the video is Blue-eyed, Brown-eyed.



I'd also like to say, that Amy was not saying 60-70 years ago. She was talking about Bill Cosby's age. And yes, you are right, you did not say anything about Bill Cosby--inna did. So, correction accepted.

Thanks for keeping us honest (as Cooper likes to say).



And on the subject of plantations and slaves. Not only did the Jim Crow laws come into effect after the Civil War, but many of the plantations, like Angola, became prisons. Any black man who "appeared" to be loitering, could be picked up by the officer of the law and without much tado, put in prison and the sentence for loitering (meaning they were walking down the road looking for work) was non-ending.. meaning they went to prison for life. So, the south could continue to run its economy via the plantations, they just put people in prison in order to have workers for the crops.



Plantations that couldn't be run under free enterprise any longer, became prisons for black freed slaves, as a way to keep them from becoming independent or contributing to this nation other than to be worked as slaves always.

Oh, and I forgot.  One of my best friends who lived across the street from me was a couple of years younger, therefore was behind me in school.  She brought home a little black girl MORE THAN ONCE to play with.  Can you believe that!?  I believe that was around 1958 or 1959.  How can I remember the date?  Because I strarted high school in 1960 and it was before that.

Shirley

Well, I'm sorry Shirley that you feel I am accusing you of being untruthful. I'm sorry you were unable to read the rest of my post. Perhaps you can return to it later. I certainly am not accusing you of lying, all I said was your experience took place AT the same time the black children were at your school, but their memory of their experiences there may have been entirely different than yours.



Just like you read my comment and ASSUMED that I was calling you an untruthful person. I certainly was not.



You can deny all you want that blacks can't have a different experience from you but that doesn't make what you say truthful or unthruthful, IT IS SIMPLY YOUR EXPERIENCE AND WHAT YOU REMEMBER ABOUT IT.



I'm pretty sure that even though you both tried out for cheerleader, and didn't make it, that the reason the black girl didn't make it was for a very different reason than why you didn't make it.



It's just like the people who believe that we took care of equality in education with the passing of the Education Act, and that by bussing black children into white school districts, and vice versa we were leveling the playing field.



And then there's Affirmative Action. And we all know who profitted most from that--WHITE WOMEN!

Yes, that's correct. The white women in this country really benefitted from AA. Ask the majority of black women who lived through AA and they will tell you the truth. Very few of them got their jobs because of AA. And in fact if they did, they were held to a higher standard than white women in the same positions. A fellow colleague of mine, who is an African American woman with her doctorate told me one day, "I told my children as they were growing up, if you want to succeed in this country you have to be twice as good, work twice as hard, and look twice the part. When her colleagues reported to their classes to teach, they could get away with jeans and sandals. But more was expected of her, and if she wanted anyone to listen to her at all, she had to wear a suit, heels and have her hair and nails done to perfection. Respect from other adminstrators only came that way.



Inna,

Obama having more delegates than Hillary has nothing to do with race, it has to do with his message--it's time for a change we can believe in.



In other words, the old ways are not working. The past eight years is proving how this administration has failed the Americans in this country. We cannot continue down the same path.



Any dislike for Americans and how we feel we are not being treated well, has to do with what we have pushed upon other nations and insisted that we know what is better for them. We have been a bully nation. It's time we got back to being a positive nation, a nation that believes each and every one of us deserves better, and that every citizen on this planet can work together to make a difference.



You may believe that what a Vietnamese community has, an African American community doesn't have. You couldn't be more far from the truth. The women in the African American community are the matriarchs. The males in the community are few and far between, simply because as I stated earlier, their experience in this country has been to be pushed so far down they have no where to go. They are not inspired by their teachers so drop out of school. They get involved with the wrong types of people because their only parent is most likely female, and is working 2 or 3 jobs to keep food on the table and pay the rent. The family ends up in the 'hood because they are unable to get a place in a better neighborhood. And even if they do, the other people don't want them there and move away. The neighborhood loses its economy--mom n pop stores close. The list goes on and on.



However, these women in African American communities are the most incredibly hard-working, self-sacrificing mothers you would ever meet. Please, don't mistake me. I am not saying that other mothers in other groups of people of color or white people are not just as hard-working, etc. These African American women have lived with and experienced more racism in their lives than I have spent my time on this earth. I will never experience racism, and neither will you. We have the color of our skin to protect us.



I am sorry that you experienced prejudice and discrimination because of your religion. That was not right. I am sorry you were unable to go to college just because you were Jewish. That was not right. And that is why we fought so hard in WWII, because of what was being done to people simply because they chose a religion that was disliked so vehemently. I for one, will always stand up for the "underdog."

I for one will always speak out as I do here, to make sure voices other than those who have been oppressed are listened to and heard.



There's the story of the village where the police come and they take away the Jews, and I don't speak up. They return again and take away the homosexuals, and I don't speak up. They return again and they take away the gypsies, and I don't speak up. This story goes on through all the "groups" that we have identified--every ethnic group, skin color. Then they come for me, and there is no one left to speak up for me!



So I really think it is important here to listen to everyone's story. I think it is important to think about how we would always want to be treated. Racism does exist in this country and will continue to until we all come to the realization that Hillary's remark about it takes a village to raise a child, is true for the ENTIRE "village" of the United States. Bush's no child left behind, has not worked, and will not work. When schools are punished for not meeting test standards, and they are not even given the SAME materials to work with to teach their children, it is very angering to look at the drop out rates of children and what groups they come from.



Where I live, there are populations of wealthy people who live in their little gated communities. They have so much wealth they are able to buy their schools and their children every advantage available. For example, anyone who wants to go to college and doesn't plan on attending a community college, must take the SAT test to be considered for admission. Well, the wealthy can hire someone to help their child learn to take the test and get a good grade. This might cost the parent up to $1,200.; but on the "other side of the tracks," exists the ghetto, where the poor live. These parents cannot afford this, so although these two groups of students--wealthy & poor--go to public schools, the wealthy already have a huge advantage.



Then consider that the wealthy school districts, because the parents are willing to donate any amount of money that might be needed, can provide AP (advanced placement) classes. Any student in these wealthy schools who takes advanced placement classes and passes them, is given a little bonus on the GPA which of course is significant when it comes to college applications. Many poor schools are unable to even offer one AP class, let alone a whole variety of them. So these students GPA scores are lower, and therefore lessen their chances of getting into a college or university of their choice.



I listened to a lecture one day given by an African American educator who lives on the East Coast. He was well-to-do and lived in a very nice gated community. He decided to take his "girls" when they were college age and ready to apply, to several universities on the East Coast. At one university, he and his daughters were sitting in a large auditorium of about 400 similar parents and children. When the Registrar of the University took the podium, he opened with this statement: Because you are here, you may be assuming that your children have a chance of getting into this university. Well, you are mistaken. And I will tell you why."



The Registrar stated that those accepted to the university would be as follows:



1. Childen of parents who donated millions of dollars to building fund



2. Children of alumni of university (this is important when we talk about access--because prior to the mid 1960s, there were minisule numbers of minority students at these prestigious private universities. For a hundred years or more, these schools were mainly white male students attending).



3. Children who excelled in a particular sport, be it football, tennis, hockey, basketball, etc.



4. Children who had a particular talent: played piano, trombone, etc. Some special skill that the university needed to fill that year



5. Certain number of places went to students who came from particular schools that historically received acceptances for placement at that particular university.



And he concluded, "By the time we have run through our list, there will be no places for your students."



The lecturer said he heard a loud gasp from the adults in the audience, but not from him. He already knew this. He already knew that his daughters would be subject to racism in this country, and that he had spent quite a bit of time preparing them for exactly this type of experience.



The object lesson here is not that we are responsible as individuals for the enslavement of black people by our ancestors. That makes no sense at all. We are, however, responsible for searching out the truth of the history of the United States, and not just what we were told was the truth in school. We are responsible, as adults, to make sure that no other person near us or crossing our paths is subject to racism or treatment different from our own. If each of us did just that, we could make much change in this country.



As for the story about UC Berkeley, I am assuming you are discussing Affirmative Action, and the trustee, an African American, worked with the legislature to remove that process. AA was not meant to hold a minimum or maximum quota for minorities. Unfortunately, the administration at many universities did not understand the basic premis of AA, and reinterrupted it incorrectly. The seats that were for minorities were to help diversify the university's student population. These students still had to meet the admittance standards of the university. When you have wealthy people who can afford to spend any amount of money to get their child into a particular university, and the university just took those top " vote getters," there would be no diversity of students at the university.

By accepting applications from minority students, and holding spaces for qualified minority students the universities and colleges were to begin diversifying their population.



And I agree with you that we cannot fix someone else's family structure nor do we have the right to tell them how to run their lives. We can only be there to support them and help them to achieve what they want to achieve, not what we might think they should achieve.

Grace,

I am sorry but I doubt very much the story about that university Registar openly stating that they give preference to children whose parents are donating money.  Ot that the grades and test scored did not matter. I've been on a college tour of all the top colleges for my daugther and they NEVER mentioned anything like this. I mean that would have been a political suicide and it sounds more like an urban legend. 

Have you seen the stats of people who get in ? I am extremely familar with the college admission process going through the second round now. And yes my kids did go to a private school and we did sacrifice to send them there. And my husband and I both were  refugees who came here with our parents with $300 in our pockets. But as soon as I could I enrolled in a university  and you know  since my parents income fell below poverty line, the university paid not just for my tuition and books but also provided some extra money for incidentals.  

You want to talk about discrimination. When I was in college we had a group of 4 working on a project : one person was a poor white guy from trailer park and another was a rich African American whose parents were lawyers. To get into computer science major one had to have 3.3 GPA, but our African American partner said he only needed 2.0 (passing grade) so he did not want to bother with the project. He was having more fun driving his Porsche around Berkeley. We had to take up his work and work much harder. Would you call this fair ?  

And I disagree that it takes a village to raise a child: it take a FAMILY. The teacher cannot inspire each student. But the parents can make sure that the kid does the homework. And it looks like you and I agree that there is not strong family in African American community: they are mostly single mother househods, where the woman got pregnant in her teens and her boyfriend could not be bothered with the kids.

 This is THE ISSUE and quite frankly I cannot see how to fix it. One thing I do know it has to come from within the community. Unfortunately today the successfull African American leave their community as soon as they can, so the poor ones don't have real role models. I guess the ycan see Obama on TV or Condolissa Rice or Colin Powell , but it is not the same.

I do feel sorry for the kids growing up in that environment be they white, hispanic or black. I just don't see it as our fault. 

BTW the school that my kids go to is a very expensive private school and white kids are less than 30% of the student body, most come from Indian and Asian families, with vast majority being first generation Americans just like my daugther. So should I say that they discriminate against white kids ? Of course not! Aisan and Inidan families place a lot of importance on education and make sure their kids study hard and can pass the entrance exams to this school. And they are willing to make sacrifices in the family budget to pay for it.

Pelosi is trying to tell the superdelegates how to vote.  I'm not too fond of her sticking her nose in to this.  That was not in the spirit of why superdelegates vote. 

When you have two popular candidates, if one gets the popular vote and the other gets the delegates, no one should be telling them what to do or make them feel threatened for voting for one candidate over the other.  I'm already hearing threats going on if they don't vote for a certain candidate.  That is not the reason for superdelegates.  Supposedly they are in play to look at both candidates closely and vote for the person who can WIN in November.

If Obama goes in to the convention with the majority of the popular vote and the majority of delegates, then Amen, the people have spoken.  In the words of Jay Leno, Pelosi...shut up.

An interesting poll on candidate experience:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/104752/Public-Divided-Whether-Obama-Has-Necessary-Experience.aspx

Note the date, this was taken before all the hoopla

Shirley-- there is a difference between lying and being unaware or in denial. Do you really think the day the passed civil rights legistlation, equality magically happened and all the inequities equalled out and the playing field was level? The playing field still isn't level because as I told you, it takes generations.

Do you think that perhaps the reason you are so angry when people challenge your biased thinking is because it hits close to home? Why would you take things so personally, particularly general statements that aren't even directed at you? A lot of times the statements that bother us most are those that hit a little too close to home. Nobody is saying you're a bad person, just that your statements about race show a lack of grasp over the complexities of race relations in America.

Rosemary I don't see Pelosi as trying to stick her nose in things, she's the chair of the convention and she's warning that there will be reprecussions among voters if superdelegates try to overturn the voters. There are a LOT of democrats who aren't going to vote for  HRC if that happens and this is the kind of thing that people remember.

Amy,

The popular vote is also the vote of the people.  To me it's the most important vote.  Pelosi shouldn't be telling delegates who to vote for.  That's why they have conventions.  I don't even like the idea of superdelegates commiting to any candidate before the convention.  Their purpose is to vote the facts, after all is said and done, who will be the best candidate to go foward when both candidates are so strong with the electorate.   Commiting to candidates early defeats the purpose of having superdelegates.  

Rosemary-- it sure wasn't in 2000. There were rules in place and HRC wants to cheat to try to get the nomination. Do you honestly think if she had more delegates than popular votes, she's be ok with using the popular vote instead. Besides, HRC isn't ahead in popular votes, she wants to supercede all votes  except the superdelegates. I despise the electoral college and think popular vote is the way to go-- but the rules are the rules and changing them midway isn't undemocratic. When our forefathers were decided upon the electoral college way of selecting president, they did so because they didn't think the commoner was wise enough to do so (which I 'm not sure I disagree with sometimes) and to give the less densely populated states would have a say in the election and it wouldn't only be the populated states who's votes mattered. The needs of the smaller and/or less populated states may be very different than those of the larger states and they deserve their  say as well- which I guess is why I can understand the electoral college in theory.

Raising oneself up by the boot straps my work for most of us, but for those who are discriminated against the likelihood is that they will be given the second or third hand boot straps that turn out to break on them.

Good point--- those who were born into more fortunate situations who don't have the ability to pull their bootstraps up and are just lucky that they never really needed to.

Shokk black men were allowed to vote before your grandmother--- before that right was taken away from them and then they weren't allowed and in some states Jim Crow laws weren't abolished until the 60s.

It took the Jews a long time to get over the holocaust and I'm not sure they're all over it.  My grandparents wouldn't buy a german car when my uncle wanted to get them one and they weren't even  in germany at the time- a lot of people in their generation felt the same way, even though there were  sympathizers who were German. Even people not directly involved in horrors like slavery and the holocaust can suffer residual PTSD from what happened.

Grace,

I don't understand the question.  What would be a failure?

Oh, the superdelegates.  Yes if it was reversed, with Hillary getting the elected delegates but losing the popular vote and all the supers went for her, I'd say the process is a failure.  They should be just as torn in half as the rest of the country is.  Absolutely. 

I've been reading about the threatening practice going on and those superdelegates are nuts to commit early to anyone.  This should be a lesson to them.